Managing a big guild becoming a Community?

[Sid Lord]

I've been part of an officers for a guild. for a year and the guild has been growing. The guild's been pretty healthy the entire expansion with a little burnout we felt around the second half of Nighthold.

We dealt with problems as they arised only if we couldn't prevent them, We've dealt with toxicity, offered to improve and been fair with everyone treating them well and now the guild feels like a community, people are bringing their SO and friends and everyone has learned to compromise and is understanding, there is not a day people don't get on discord and chat and have fun and we LOVE that.

But as we move into the next expansion we face a problem we didn't have in the start of Legion. We have a huge Quantity of players but not enough quality players.

These are people we love and respect and have made a lot of memories together, however a lot of them are, for a lack of a better term, Casuals who don't really apply themselves to master their class, Most can run a mythic +7 and not make the timer and a lot of them are wanting to raid in the next expansion with the Core group however the guild was founded on pushing content to a moderate and high level.

This issue became apparent in ToS and we burnt out some good raiders who are returning for next expansion because of our strong community but we want them to have fun and not feel like they are trapped with Awesome people who just can't commit to mastering their spec or class... Any advice would help.

[Deleted]

Git gud Players

[Enchant]

Getting to the point where you want to get to will take time, and usually at the start of a new expansion, it's a reset for everyone. Some will stay, some will go. Someone who isn't all that good can be improved, long as they are willing to. Be respectful, stern, and opened to feedback. Let others know what the guild focus is. If they agree to go along, then that's great. If others bail, well keep them and do lesser raiding modes on off night. Communicate with them. As leadership goes, that's your duty. If you're not pushing world first or other ranking, then you have a lot more lax. And do not keep changing the direction of the guild, as that can strain your players. Stick to one goal.

With time, good players will come along, depending on your progression. Don't seek them out. Train the ones you already have. I've done every type of guild duty in the past, with being a healing officer as my favorite role. I watched some of worst healers, become some of the best, when they were apart of my team.

[kaintk]

toxicity have to always be managed immediateley, the moment you see one, you pullthe player on chat and chat with him and officers, if no chanbge can be done, you kick him and if some guild member kick after this, well it's always sad but it better to see some member quit with a toxic player that let the toxicity invade all the guild

by the way i'm withn the same guild since vanilla and we never found any other better way to remove toxicity from the guild

and taking your time before guilding a member always help too, guild who guild in one day any new member is not always the good one

1 last hint : only take mature people and no teen/kid (they have school and parents, big problem;p)

and like the other one said, growing a good guild dont take only a few months, it take years to have a good core, my guild for exampl have around 15 good member core and around 5-10 other guild member in each expansion, we were 5-6 core member at vanilla

the more bigger is your real core member, the less toxicity you will really have

[Sid Lord]

Getting to the point where you want to get to will take time, and usually at the start of a new expansion, it's a reset for everyone. Some will stay, some will go. Someone who isn't all that good can be improved, long as they are willing to. Be respectful, stern, and opened to feedback. Let others know what the guild focus is. If they agree to go along, then that's great. If others bail, well keep them and do lesser raiding modes on off night. Communicate with them. As leadership goes, that's your duty. If you're not pushing world first or other ranking, then you have a lot more lax. And do not keep changing the direction of the guild, as that can strain your players. Stick to one goal.

With time, good players will come along, depending on your progression. Don't seek them out. Train the ones you already have. I've done every type of guild duty in the past, with being a healing officer as my favorite role. I watched some of worst healers, become some of the best, when they were apart of my team.

You are absolutely correct, we lost a lot of people just in the process of going 100-110 in Legion and we've always kept the same goal for the guild and always went back to it when we had to for decisions.

We know that most of people who have been wanting to raid won't be there, that's a given. problem we have is training those who will be there: the Officer crew is small but Loyal however we can't expect all the officers to train these guys all their playtime, it is just not fair... we lost our melee officer to Officer burnout and that was a HUGE hit to the guild when it happened and we can't afford it, also we can't expect the officers to know everything some are just really good at what they do and don't really want to learn specs they will never play we are also very hesitant from making new officers there are a lot of expectation the guild asks of officers not to mention there are really not a clear officer choices out there and those who are refuse to take up the responsibility.

for example we wanted to make a second Raid for the guild but No one wants to lead it and be excluded from the main raid (or raid twice a week).

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toxicity have to always be managed immediateley, the moment you see one, you pullthe player on chat and chat with him and officers, if no chanbge can be done, you kick him and if some guild member kick after this, well it's always sad but it better to see some member quit with a toxic player that let the toxicity invade all the guild

by the way i'm withn the same guild since vanilla and we never found any other better way to remove toxicity from the guild

and taking your time before guilding a member always help too, guild who guild in one day any new member is not always the good one

1 last hint : only take mature people and no teen/kid (they have school and parents, big problem;p)

and like the other one said, growing a good guild dont take only a few months, it take years to have a good core, my guild for exampl have around 15 good member core and around 5-10 other guild member in each expansion, we were 5-6 core member at vanilla

the more bigger is your real core member, the less toxicity you will really have

haha our issue is the exact Opposite, we have NO problem dealing with Toxic people and that's why people in the guild feel safe with us to bring their friends and family to the guild. we are having the problem of over population of REALLY good people and managing them with a very small but dedicated officers who are really on edge as of recent.

[Atraxxa]

Make a separate raid group just for them, with a little investment you might even be able to pull out a gem or 2 out of it for main raid.

[Apoc2k]

The best advise i can give you is:

- Get your GM, officers, members to talk it over and make a decision about what the objective of the guild should be (or is).
- Decide how. Be extra sure you understand what you lose and what you gain. You can't have it all.
- After everything is decided be upfront about what the guild is about to all the current and future members.

The ones that share your vision will stay (or join), the ones that don't will find a more suitable place. A guild is supposed to be a group of like-minded individuals that share goals after all.

[Enchant]

You are absolutely correct, we lost a lot of people just in the process of going 100-110 in Legion and we've always kept the same goal for the guild and always went back to it when we had to for decisions.

We know that most of people who have been wanting to raid won't be there, that's a given. problem we have is training those who will be there: the Officer crew is small but Loyal however we can't expect all the officers to train these guys all their playtime, it is just not fair... we lost our melee officer to Officer burnout and that was a HUGE hit to the guild when it happened and we can't afford it, also we can't expect the officers to know everything some are just really good at what they do and don't really want to learn specs they will never play we are also very hesitant from making new officers there are a lot of expectation the guild asks of officers not to mention there are really not a clear officer choices out there and those who are refuse to take up the responsibility.

Understandable. I've had players not give a damn, too. First and foremost, the guild title comes first as we know. If players are selfish and don't want to improve, yet want to raid (?), then you know what to do. It sucks, but at least offer them a position to stay within the guild and they can come on off nights. If they leave, then you know they weren't there for what you guys are trying to accomplish as a team. Those that want to improve, help them, because they'll help you in the end.

When helping to train someone, you don't need to know the actual class. The person being trained needs to know this already, well as improving awareness and other means. Obviously it takes time and what not. This is all on them. I guess train isn't the word I'd use anyway. I think guidance is more appropriate for what I'm trying to get at. Guide as a role leader. Best wishes! BFA Beta calls me!

[Sid Lord]

The best advise i can give you is:

- Get your GM, officers, members to talk it over and make a decision about what the objective of the guild should be (or is).
- Decide how. Be extra sure you understand what you lose and what you gain. You can't have it all.
- After everything is decided be upfront about what the guild is about to all the current and future members.

The ones that share your vision will stay (or join), the ones that don't will find a more suitable place. A guild is supposed to be a group of like-minded individuals that share goals after all.

I am asking here, because we couldn't come to a conclusion with the officers and we do not want to talk to the guild until we have narrowed our options to 2-3. Opening the discussions like this to the guild can be destructive to the guild and burn it to the ground from the inside as everyone has their own solution and they will bicker until everyone hates each other, we are actively trying to stay away from that.

Understandable. I've had players not give a damn, too. First and foremost, the guild title comes first as we know. If players are selfish and don't want to improve, yet want to raid (?), then you know what to do. It sucks, but at least offer them a position to stay within the guild and they can come on off nights. If they leave, then you know they weren't there for what you guys are trying to accomplish as a team. Those that want to improve, help them, because they'll help you in the end.

When helping to train someone, you don't need to know the actual class. The person being trained needs to know this already, well as improving awareness and other means. Obviously it takes time and what not. This is all on them. I guess train isn't the word I'd use anyway. I think guidance is more appropriate for what I'm trying to get at. Guide as a role leader. Best wishes! BFA Beta calls me!

Thanks for your time. Enjoy.

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Make a separate raid group just for them, with a little investment you might even be able to pull out a gem or 2 out of it for main raid.

we tried that, no one wants to lead it.

[clevin]

This is easy in principle, harder to do.

Set standards. If someone wants to raid with the core group, they need to pull their weight.

THEN

Have a casual raiding group. This group might top on normal or in heroic. It's for people who want to raid with others in the guild but who are not interested in min/maxing. They're still expected to pull their weight but it's on a 'do the best you can and as long as that's reasonable, fine' basis. You can't tolerate outright bad players here but some people are good players but can't or aren't interested in becoming mythic raiders.


This assumes you want to have this kind of setup and that your core group is good enough and all wants to push things. Make sure you have buy in from the raid - it does no good if you and a few others want to raid mythic but most of your raid is fine with heroic. Put more simply, make sure you and your would be core raiders are all on the same page.

If your core group is on the same page and wants to push then set and keep to your standards for that. Sure, give others a chance but be very clear that they can't come in and do 40% of the DPS of the next worst DPS, etc. Also, be realistic.

Finally, decide what you want to be. Make sure you have buy in.

[Deleted]

Set item level high enough as requirement so bad casuals don't meet it.

[clevin]

we tried that, no one wants to lead it.

How many people were interested in the group as a group though? If there's enough, one of them can lead it (vs a more experienced raider who might get frustrated)

[Deleted]

You're in what's arguably the most horrible position for a guild; a strong roster that likes each other, but could see one side of it alienated if the guild goes in the direction of the other. I don't envy you.

Ultimately, however, I think you've only got one choice:

Drop your expectation to Normal/Heroic raiding, and let those who want to go further move to new guilds with your best wishes.

You can recruit new raiders but, believe me, it's nigh-impossible to create a great community; and that's what you've got. Risk it at your peril. I think you'll probably find that a lot of your better players will stick around because of your vibe, which is really cool. You can look to push Mythic+ with your better players, while doing the meta-achievements for your guild in Normal and Heroic. It's still perfectly prestigious to clear Heroic raids.

If you take the other route, of pushing content most players can't manage, then you'll lose the community you've built for not a lot of gain.

Good luck.

[Aeula]

You have two choices.

Bench all the friendly players and keep only the core players and risk sundering the guild.

Or let the top players leave for other guilds and keep the friendly lot but risk losing them as they become frustrated with lack of progress.

I’ve been in guilds that have chosen both options, neither works out well. Usually they start with the second and then end up floating to the first. Then some of the raiders think they’re too good and split off to form their own guild with the original guild crumbling shortly after.

[Sid Lord]

Make a separate raid group just for them, with a little investment you might even be able to pull out a gem or 2 out of it for main raid.

Hey Atraxxa, I can't respond to your PM. I do not have 10 posts on MMO Champion :/

[Nutrition]

I have only seen two ingame communities since I started playing wow and both where run with the custom chat channel system by big name guilds on the server.

I can't really see communities taking off... either they would of formed before this or people would simply join a guild.

[Kokolums]

Wow is really easy and you don't have to master your class to do normal raiding. Im missing something. There must be some key people in this guild that are also really bad. Or perhaps you personally have a really difficult time telling people no. Its not a big deal if some people are selected out from playing on normal difficulty.

[PhantasmagoriaX]

@Sid Lord

Your situation was what happened to my guild around the end of WoD/start of Legion. Basically we had a good strong group with some..well.. crappy DPS and we worked our asses off to get the crappy DPS up to par. After spending hours and lots of gold we didnt get anywhere with them and we just got a new raid leader/guild master and he wanted to get us out of the "casual" raiding scene (which was what we were going for) and into heroic fulltime. The crappy DPS got perma-benched and eventually left, grated we did not gkick them.

The key thing is to recruit, do trial runs with the newbies and if they are good invite them to raid and into your guild. Raid burnout is a sucky thing but it happens to all of us at some point but i would say a majority comes back at each expac.

GL OP!

[Sid Lord]

I am reading the same story here and I think I understand what everyone is saying; The guild has a good number of Really professional players and a LARGE number of Really amateur players and sometimes it does really feel like the more skilled players are forced to carry the amateurs, I can assure you the amateur players would not be anywhere they are now if it wasn't because of the carry from some of our good-hearted skilled players but it can be taxing on them.

I do have to say that I do refuse to accept that the guild is doomed already but I know there needs to be changes I just don't know what... do we abandon our friends and create a second "hardcore Guild"? do we give them ultimatum before giving up on them and never bring them to raids?

The officers have decided that we are still going to push, that's the reason this guild exist and we have to push for that agenda but we don't know how far we can push before we break the guild. There is a fine line but we can't see where it is...