How can Sylvanas be redeemed?

[Aucald]

But this greatly diminishes the argument that Sylvanas killed her own civilians, including innocent ones who were turning back on her order. They were 12 total, a very small number to begin with, and I assume most of them were actually defecting, so how many innocent civilians did she kill? 3? 4? 6 at most? Caught in the cross-fire in an unexpected and highly tense moment. Goblin technology kills more innocent bystanders than that... not to mention Apothecary experiments gone wrong.

The only Desolate Council member that can be positively confirmed as defecting was Parqual Fintallas, who wished to remain with his Human daughter and felt that Sylvanas was unlikely to allow of the two of them to continue any form of relationship after the Gathering (and who had apparently had inclinations in this direction before the Gathering had even commenced). Even the leader of the Desolate Council, Elsie/Vellcinda, was completely loyal to Sylvanas and told Calia that even though she was the true heir of Lordaeron and last of the Menethil line she considered Sylvanas to be her queen. The rest of the Council's loyalties will never be known, as they were executed wherever they stood. The time between Sylvanas' horn signaling the end of the dispatching of the Dark Rangers was very short, and only those Council members who already returned to the Forsaken base-camp (well before the call to retreat) were "forgiven" their trespass. Nathanos said many of them were returning to the Forsaken pitch at the time of the executions, and others were caught mid-meeting and unsure of where to go or what to do. Parqual and his daughter were booking it toward Stromgarde when he was cut down by a lethal arrow.

Sylvanas did kill her own people, and some of them (especially Elsie/Vellcinda) were completely innocent any charge of defection. The number doesn't really matter at the end of the day - it is the symbol of those deaths that will likely prevail in the minds of the Alliance and even her own people.

[Coconut]

The only Desolate Council member that can be positively confirmed as defecting was Parqual Fintallas, who wished to remain with his Human daughter and felt that Sylvanas was unlikely to allow of the two of them to continue any form of relationship after the Gathering (and who had apparently had inclinations in this direction before the Gathering had even commenced). Even the leader of the Desolate Council, Elsie/Vellcinda, was completely loyal to Sylvanas and told Calia that even though she was the true heir of Lordaeron and last of the Menethil line she considered Sylvanas to be her queen. The rest of the Council's loyalties will never be known, as they were executed wherever they stood. The time between Sylvanas' horn signaling the end of the dispatching of the Dark Rangers was very short, and only those Council members who already returned to the Forsaken base-camp (well before the call to retreat) were "forgiven" their trespass. Nathanos said many of them were returning to the Forsaken pitch at the time of the executions, and others were caught mid-meeting and unsure of where to go or what to do. Parqual and his daughter were booking it toward Stromgarde when he was cut down by a lethal arrow.

Sylvanas did kill her own people, and some of them (especially Elsie/Vellcinda) were completely innocent any charge of defection. The number doesn't really matter at the end of the day - it is the symbol of those deaths that will likely prevail in the minds of the Alliance and even her own people.

He certainly wasn't the only one, as those fleeing towards the Alliance lines were referred to in plural. I think it's fair to assume at least half of them ran. Logically it should be more than half, otherwise the story would have focused on the ones who stayed. Even so, the scale is much smaller than I imagined. I thought this was a culling of sorts, with a a total number of victims in the hundreds, or at least in the high dozens, but this was more like a surgical strike with very few casualties. The innocent victims can be written off easily as a calculated sacrifice.

Would Sylvanas have acted the same if it was a large chunk of her people who wanted to be friendly with the humans? We can't say that anymore. And we can't say that this is the end of any Forsaken with living relatives in Stormwind either, if only 12 of them were killed.

[Aucald]

He certainly wasn't the only one, as those fleeing towards the Alliance lines were referred to in plural. I think it's fair to assume at least half of them ran. Logically it should be more than half, otherwise the story would have focused on the ones who stayed. Even so, the scale is much smaller than I imagined. I thought this was a culling of sorts, with a a total number of victims in the hundreds, or at least in the high dozens, but this was more like a surgical strike with very few casualties. The innocent victims can be written off easily as a calculated sacrifice.

Would Sylvanas have acted the same if it was a large chunk of her people who wanted to be friendly with the humans? We can't say that anymore. And we can't say that this is the end of any Forsaken with living relatives in Stormwind either, if only 12 of them were killed.

Impossible to say, as I assume the true numbers are meant to be unclear and thus subject to speculation and political spin by either side - Horde or Alliance. The only true known quantities are Parqual (defector) and Elsie/Vellcinda (loyal), both massacred on the field without any form of trial or interrogation to discern their intentions. It was certainly a culling, of sorts - Sylvanas removing a thorn in her side, and purging the ranks of the Forsaken of those who harbor hope of re-embracing their lost humanity and spreading what she considered a weakness across the Forsaken people. Both Genn and Anduin glumly admit it is a political coup for Sylvanas, who masterfully cleared her ranks of "traitors" and eliminated a would-be usurper of her throne all while keeping her promises to Anduin and not endangering the fragile peace between the two factions at that time.

There are indeed other Forsaken with living relatives and loved ones in Stormwind and elsewhere, there - a great many Forsaken wanted to be part of the Gathering but Sylvanas limited participation on the Horde side to just the Desolate Council as means to have more control over the event (and, of course, to ensure those on the Council would be the only ones in harm's way if she had to act). The loyalists who returned to Galen's Fall after being rejected by their living relatives will of course soften the blow by smoothly backing Sylvanas' "wisdom" about hope and re-embracing their previous lives, but I imagine the sentiment that originally engendered the Desolate Council is far from gone.

[Zyky]

Plot twist Arator is not Alleria's child, but actually Sylvanas' child.

[Coconut]

Impossible to say, as I assume the true numbers are meant to be unclear and thus subject to speculation and political spin by either side - Horde or Alliance. The only true known quantities are Parqual (defector) and Elsie/Vellcinda (loyal), both massacred on the field without any form of trial or interrogation to discern their intentions. It was certainly a culling, of sorts - Sylvanas removing a thorn in her side, and purging the ranks of the Forsaken of those who harbor hope of re-embracing their lost humanity and spreading what she considered a weakness across the Forsaken people. Both Genn and Anduin glumly admit it is a political coup for Sylvanas, who masterfully cleared her ranks of "traitors" and eliminated a would-be usurper of her throne all while keeping her promises to Anduin and not endangering the fragile peace between the two factions at that time.

The total is as clear as it gets. It's 12. Those tomb stones in the screenshot aren't just props, like the Spirit Healer graves. Each individual stone has a name on it, which is a first for in-game funerary monuments. Anduin said in the novel that he would never forget their names. It would be weird to go back on it and claim that there were many more. And 12 is a very small number given the circumstances, and clearly not enough to justify the fan reactions, even if NONE of them were really defecting, which would be an absurd claim to make. It's tragic, yes, but it's no real purging, and no "point of no return" moment of Sylvanas betraying her own people.

[Aucald]

The total is as clear as it gets. It's 12. Those tomb stones in the screenshot aren't just props, like the Spirit Healer graves. Each individual stone has a name on it, which is a first for in-game funerary monuments. Anduin said in the novel that he would never forget their names. It would be weird to go back on it and claim that there were many more. And 12 is a very small number given the circumstances, and clearly not enough to justify the fan reactions, even if NONE of them were really defecting, which would be an absurd claim to make. It's tragic, yes, but it's no real purging, and no "point of no return" moment of Sylvanas betraying her own people.

12 who died, plus the number who returned to Galen's Fall before the Dark Rangers descended on the field to cut down the remainders. Of those 12, only the positions of Else/Vellcinda and Parqual are known, leaving 10 murdered Desolate Council members who were either loyal or potential defectors. But again, all of them are powerful symbols of what went down that day. The mere number of the dead is of far less consequence than you think, so momentous was the event during which they were cut down. Each one is a powerful symbol in different ways in the eyes of both factions, potentially.

As for it being a "point of no return" for Sylvanas - well, that's a personal and subjective metric everyone has to make for themselves. I don't personally think it puts Sylvanas beyond redemption, per se; but others would definitely disagree with that position (and have a valid argument in doing so).

[Coconut]

12 who died, plus the number who returned to Galen's Fall before the Dark Rangers descended on the field to cut down the remainders. Of those 12, only the positions of Else/Vellcinda and Parqual are known, leaving 10 murdered Desolate Council members who were either loyal or potential defectors. But again, all of them are powerful symbols of what went down that day. The mere number of the dead is of far less consequence than you think, so momentous was the event during which they were cut down. Each one is a powerful symbol in different ways in the eyes of both factions, potentially.

As for it being a "point of no return" for Sylvanas - well, that's a personal and subjective metric everyone has to make for themselves. I don't personally think it puts Sylvanas beyond redemption, per se; but others would definitely disagree with that position (and have a valid argument in doing so).

The Forsaken are no strangers to harsh punishments or sacrificing their lives for the Dark Lady's will, though. It's part of their culture. The commander of Venomspite, for example, had several of his subjects executed for being dumb enough to be captured by the Scarlet Crusade. Sure, this is not always the norm, but this situation just so happened to require extreme measures, and given the small number of Forsaken involved, it was easier to kill everyone and end the event swiftly than try to sort everyone out and allow something potentially threatening to happen.

Again, if there would have been more Forsaken there, maybe Sylvanas would have valued their collective lives enough to wait and let them make a choice... or not, but we can't say that for sure, because there were only 12 potential defectors involved.

I think it is disingenuous to say that Parqual was the only actual defector, though. Calia revealed herself after he spoke to her, and clearly she mobilized some of them. I think 50/50 is a fair assumption to make, but perhaps someone who read the book can clarify.

Another thing to not here is that, since Anduin buried these fallen Forsaken, technically Sylvanas can raise them again if she feels momentous and/or if this is such a momentous event that their lives start having some extraordinary meaning for the other Forsaken or the Horde.

[Hawkknight97]

I don't see her getting redeemed anytime soon.

I much prefer her getting killed and having someone else on the mantle of Warchief to bring back the horde to its original roots.

[Aucald]

The Forsaken are no strangers to harsh punishments or sacrificing their lives for the Dark Lady's will, though. It's part of their culture. The commander of Venomspite, for example, had several of his subjects executed for being dumb enough to be captured by the Scarlet Crusade. Sure, this is not always the norm, but this situation just so happened to require extreme measures, and given the small number of Forsaken involved, it was easier to kill everyone and end the event swiftly than try to sort everyone out and allow something potentially threatening to happen.

That is true (about being no strangers to harsh punishments or sacrificing their lives), and apparently the are subject to sacrifices were weren't aware of until now. But the execution of those who failed in their duties (as in Venomspite) is still somewhat different than the execution of loyalists for being present at an event that Sylvanas herself fully sanctioned. Those on the Desolate Council who remained loyal to Sylvanas but were killed for the mere suspicion of disloyalty will be symbols of conflict and debated about for a long time to come, I imagine.

Again, if there would have been more Forsaken there, maybe Sylvanas would have valued their collective lives enough to wait and let them make a choice... or not, but we can't say that for sure, because there were only 12 potential defectors involved.

As you say, we'll never know - and it doesn't really matter. In many eyes the small number of possible defectors only makes Sylvanas look worse. There are many ways she could've addressed her suspicions that would've made for far better optics than killing her own subjects in full view of everyone on an open field for the barest suspicion of disloyalty.

I think it is disingenuous to say that Parqual was the only actual defector, though. Calia revealed herself after he spoke to her, and clearly she mobilized some of them. I think 50/50 is a fair assumption to make, but perhaps someone who read the book can clarify.

I did read the book, finished it earlier today. And Parqual is the only *known* defector, just as Elsie/Vellcinda is the only known loyalist. The rest are indeterminate, and probably are so on purpose. 50/50 is a fair assumption to make, but it is impossible to know for sure.

Another thing to not here is that, since Anduin buried these fallen Forsaken, technically Sylvanas can raise them again if she feels momentous and/or if this is such a momentous event that their lives start having some extraordinary meaning for the other Forsaken or the Horde.

The book states that they died the "Final Death," which seems to close the book on any resurrections or reanimations. It is doubtful Sylvanas would want to do that given her view on the matter, and resurrecting them after massacring them would actually make for even worse optics - it would seem like the executed her own people in a fit of pique and then was like "oops, better dust them off and reanimate them now that I've vented my spleen." As it is Sylvanas can sell the notion that she emptied her ranks of traitors and defectors, those too weak of will to be strong, proud Forsaken. Resurrecting them in that light makes it look as if she were throwing a tyrannical tantrum.

[Alixie]

She could have redeemed herself if she let the handful of people who wanted to leave go, instead of hunting them down like a crazy ex-girlfriend.

[Coconut]

That is true (about being no strangers to harsh punishments or sacrificing their lives), and apparently the are subject to sacrifices were weren't aware of until now. But the execution of those who failed in their duties (as in Venomspite) is still somewhat different than the execution of loyalists for being present at an event that Sylvanas herself fully sanctioned. Those on the Desolate Council who remained loyal to Sylvanas but were killed for the mere suspicion of disloyalty will be symbols of conflict and debated about for a long time to come, I imagine.

She certainly did not sanction Calia Menethil showing up and offering protection to Forsaken defectors. Sylvanas was certainly cold, but it can be argued her response was meant to defuse a bad situation as quickly and as decisively as possible. A member of the Council went to Calia and made her reveal herself, it would have been reasonable for her to assume it was something the remaining members had set up together.

As you say, we'll never know - and it doesn't really matter. In many eyes the small number of possible defectors only makes Sylvanas look worse. There are many ways she could've addressed her suspicions that would've made for far better optics than killing her own subjects in full view of everyone on an open field for the barest suspicion of disloyalty.

Depends on your perspective and agenda. Alliance characters and players will certainly claim this made Sylvanas look bad, just like Horde and Sylvanas fans will put the blame on Calia for triggering the situation and Anduin for allowing her to be there. Since he was the one who organized the event, the one who had something to prove with it, his share of the blame is the greatest. Sylvanas was always cold and pragmatic. We can't really blame her for not "reacting better" to the shit she was served.

I did read the book, finished it earlier today. And Parqual is the only *known* defector, just as Elsie/Vellcinda is the only known loyalist. The rest are indeterminate, and probably are so on purpose. 50/50 is a fair assumption to make, but it is impossible to know for sure.

Are there really no others heading for the Alliance camp? I wouldn't necessarily expect numbers, but I can't really imagine how the book could be unclear about this. Words have to be used to describe that something happens. Is it using plural for the ones running away or not?

The book states that they died the "Final Death," which seems to close the book on any resurrections or reanimations. It is doubtful Sylvanas would want to do that given her view on the matter, and resurrecting them after massacring them would actually make for even worse optics - it would seem like the executed her own people in a fit of pique and then was like "oops, better dust them off and reanimate them now that I've vented my spleen." As it is Sylvanas can sell the notion that she emptied her ranks of traitors and defectors, those too weak of will to be strong, proud Forsaken. Resurrecting them in that light makes it look as if she were throwing a tyrannical tantrum.

She couldn't have "emptied the ranks of traitors" by killing 12 people. I don't know about her spinning stuff not to look bad. She'd better get some character development at some point, and good character development can include a change of heart, remorse, admitting a mistake, taking responsibility, etc.

Of course, it could also include a character spiraling further down a dark path, but I think any development that turns Sylvanas into a villain would be excruciatingly bad and I honestly don't think Blizzard writing would be that retarded. A little tone deaf and clumsy in character development, maybe, but that retarded? Would be too shocking to believe.

[Aucald]

She certainly did not sanction Calia Menethil showing up and offering protection to Forsaken defectors. Sylvanas was certainly cold, but it can be argued her response was meant to defuse a bad situation as quickly and as decisively as possible. A member of the Council went to Calia and made her reveal herself, it would have been reasonable for her to assume it was something the remaining members had set up together.

Except Sylvanas quickly unravels the snarl in the skein and ascertains that Calia acted emotionally - without prior planning with Anduin or the prompting of the Desolate Council members. She does this after the horn for the retreat back to Galen's Fall but before she sends her Rangers onto the field, demonstrating that she knows full well that Calia's foolish antics were a spur of the moment and emotional reaction to the Gathering itself, and not some pre-planned sedition on the part of either the Alliance or the Council. Then she sends the Dark Rangers in anyways, stating to Nathanos (who is actually shocked that she would do such a thing) that she can't take the risk of any of the remaining Desolate Council members bringing back even a hint of Alliance sympathy back into the fold.

Depends on your perspective and agenda. Alliance characters and players will certainly claim this made Sylvanas look bad, just like Horde and Sylvanas fans will put the blame on Calia for triggering the situation and Anduin for allowing her to be there. Since he was the one who organized the event, the one who had something to prove with it, his share of the blame is the greatest. Sylvanas was always cold and pragmatic. We can't really blame her for not "reacting better" to the shit she was served.

This is all true.

Are there really no others heading for the Alliance camp? I wouldn't necessarily expect numbers, but I can't really imagine how the book could be unclear about this. Words have to be used to describe that something happens. Is it using plural for the ones running away or not?

At this point in the story, the book focused on the perspectives of Anduin, Sylvanas, Elsie, and Parqual - the other Council members aren't mentioned save the ending where their corpses litter the ground of the Gathering. In my mind's eye, I saw Elsie and those within earshot of her brief conversation with Calia heading to Galen's Fall, and Parqual and perhaps one or two others making their way toward Stromgarde. The rest of the Council members were probably talking to their loved ones from Stormwind and too wrapped up in the emotions to really react to what was happening until it was too late. It was just a handful of moments after Sylvanas sounded the horn that she commanded the Dark Rangers to strike - not enough for anyone to really make it to either base-camp. They all die pretty much in the middle of the field as a result.

She couldn't have "emptied the ranks of traitors" by killing 12 people. I don't know about her spinning stuff not to look bad. She'd better get some character development at some point, and good character development can include a change of heart, remorse, admitting a mistake, taking responsibility, etc.

No, she couldn't - but this is still her stated justification, nonetheless. It would be more apt to say she made an example of the Council and any who would deign to express sympathy for their old Human lives or any kind of yearning to reconnect with their Alliance family or relations. As she herself says, she only wants those Forsaken who have truly given up hope of reconciliation and ties to their Human lives - the "truly desolate." Why she wants this is up for everyone to decide, either because those without hope are easier to manipulate, or out of a perverse form of compassion as she knows reconciliation will only lead to further pain and heartache.

Of course, it could also include a character spiraling further down a dark path, but I think any development that turns Sylvanas into a villain would be excruciatingly bad and I honestly don't think Blizzard writing would be that retarded. A little tone deaf and clumsy in character development, maybe, but that retarded? Would be too shocking to believe.

"Before the Storm" pulls no punches when it comes to Sylvanas' characterization, but coupled with the other sources she still retains an air of complexity and considerable depth. As stated above, it's hard to pin down Sylvanas' true motives - even when given privy to her thoughts you can see traceries of her old self mixed in among the hatred and bitterness, and the fear of her own dark fate. A question that came to me reading the book and getting limited access to Sylvanas' thoughts, feelings, and her unveiled contempt for the Alliance and even her own people in the Horde was "does she actually believe herself?" There is a possibility that she is protecting herself just as much as any other Forsaken - afraid to face the dark mirror of her own actions much in the way that Genn was forced to when Faol put him to the question. I don't think it's easy to conclude it as Sylvanas being irredeemably evil and unworthy of even sympathy - but she is still very far gone into her own inner darkness if that is truly the case.

[Theangryone]

She can't be, which is why she's going to get replaced.

[Coconut]

Except Sylvanas quickly unravels the snarl in the skein and ascertains that Calia acted emotionally - without prior planning with Anduin or the prompting of the Desolate Council members. She does this after the horn for the retreat back to Galen's Fall but before she sends her Rangers onto the field, demonstrating that she knows full well that Calia's foolish antics were a spur of the moment and emotional reaction to the Gathering itself, and not some pre-planned sedition on the part of either the Alliance or the Council. Then she sends the Dark Rangers in anyways, stating to Nathanos (who is actually shocked that she would do such a thing) that she can't take the risk of any of the remaining Desolate Council members bringing back even a hint of Alliance sympathy back into the fold.

At this point in the story, the book focused on the perspectives of Anduin, Sylvanas, Elsie, and Parqual - the other Council members aren't mentioned save the ending where their corpses litter the ground of the Gathering. In my mind's eye, I saw Elsie and those within earshot of her brief conversation with Calia heading to Galen's Fall, and Parqual and perhaps one or two others making their way toward Stromgarde. The rest of the Council members were probably talking to their loved ones from Stormwind and too wrapped up in the emotions to really react to what was happening until it was too late. It was just a handful of moments after Sylvanas sounded the horn that she commanded the Dark Rangers to strike - not enough for anyone to really make it to either base-camp. They all die pretty much in the middle of the field as a result.

This sounds a bit strange to me. Did she have time to think it through, or was it a spur of the moment decision? Of course, I don't really trust the writing to be at Breaking Bad levels of subtlety. Did Sylvanas realize that Calia acted emotionally because the character was meant to make her decision with that information in mind, or did she only "realize" it for the sake of the reader, which is a very common writing mistake?

Logically there should have been something between her sounding the horns and ordering the attack that motivated her. She sees something weird is going on on the field > sounds the retreat > realizes that some Forsaken are running towards Stromgarde/realizes who Calia is, which is the major trigger > orders the attack. If nothing of note happens in between, why not do it at the same time? "Sound the horn for show and go kill them".

Her justification is a pretty weird writing choice too. It makes it look like Sylvanas was looking for something to go wrong, likely planning to kill those who found a connection with living relatives anyway, but that would absolve Anduin of any guilt, making him nothing but a boring perfect character. And even if that is the case... is it really a sign of where the story is going, or is it just Golden's fangirl views shining through? Because all the talk so far has been of grey characters, and the BFA launch cinematic does its best to make Sylvanas look cool for Horde fans.

If anything, she should encourage her people to bond with some living humans, because she needs living humans to make more Forsaken, and becoming Forsaken as a means to spend a second life with dead family members could turn into a popular thing. I've always said there aren't enough people out there who are willing to become undead.

"Before the Storm" pulls no punches when it comes to Sylvanas' characterization, but coupled with the other sources she still retains an air of complexity and considerable depth. As stated above, it's hard to pin down Sylvanas' true motives - even when given privy to her thoughts you can see traceries of her old self mixed in among the hatred and bitterness, and the fear of her own dark fate. A question that came to me reading the book and getting limited access to Sylvanas' thoughts, feelings, and her unveiled contempt for the Alliance and even her own people in the Horde was "does she actually believe herself?" There is a possibility that she is protecting herself just as much as any other Forsaken - afraid to face the dark mirror of her own actions much in the way that Genn was forced to when Faol put him to the question. I don't think it's easy to conclude it as Sylvanas being irredeemably evil and unworthy of even sympathy - but she is still very far gone into her own inner darkness if that is truly the case.

It would be great if they actually manage to pull that off. Sylvanas used to be a cool character in TFT. She was a cunning and resourceful freedom fighter who almost took down Arthas and gave a few villains their comeuppance in very satisfying way. She was criminally underutilized in Wrath. Her whole motivation was to get revenge on Arthas, yet she had no cathartic involvement in ICC, and the two times she did show up were embarrassing screw-ups (she lost the Undercity without really being present anywhere else to explain why, and she was almost killed by Arthas in the Halls of Reflection). They did a 180 flip on her in Cata, which I suppose was necessary to give a new motivation to the Forsaken (I'm not really bothered by that given the rate of retcons in WoW), but making her borderline psychotic wasn't really the most appealing choice vs the cold and calculating general fighting for her freedom.

But now the story isn't just about her anymore. If Sylvanas becomes a villain, that would also affect Vol'jin's story, because he was the one who vouched for her and placed her in charge. Garrosh was a great villain, especially for Horde players, but his villainy completely ruined Thrall as a character. And at this point it would affect the Horde's story as a whole, turning us into morons who can't pick a competent leader if the whole world depended on it, not to mention the repeat of the "evil Warchief appointed by naive good guy" would be hilariously bad from a storytelling perspective.

So it's kind of weird to see her pull off borderline irredeemable shit like this. I want the Alliance to have some flaws and internal tensions as well, especially with the humans, so I can justify hating them as a Horde player.

[vipers]

We honestly have zero idea what she was trying to do in Legion, but it was much closer to harnessing the power of the leader of them to preserve her people. She explicitly said submit to Eyir. Her valkyr from Northrend seem to be a lot more tenuous than the ones from Broken Isles and Eyir can make more valkyr.

this is nice video that tells about sylvanas after death of arthas and valkyries and maybe she was just trying to postpone trip to back to hell

[mysticx]

I don't see her getting redeemed anytime soon.

I much prefer her getting killed and having someone else on the mantle of Warchief to bring back the horde to its original roots.

I think that the solution that is least galling for most people is if Sylvanas takes a step back from warchief to being leader of the forsaken, and somebody else leads the horde back to what Thrall envisioned, then forsaken players are happy they still have an edgy leader, the horde players can return to what they signed up for when rolling a Horde toon, and alliance players (Speaking as one myself), well, we want to parade Sylvanas' head around on a pike, so it won't be much fun for us, but Sylvanas provides a decent way to keep conflict between the factions going, and like it or not, Blizz are really hung up on the faction conflict...

[Mehrunes]

The trap was a last resort, else she wouldn't have put so many Horde forces in the meatgrinder and used all kinds of dirty tactics first. And since the Alliance has enough forces to make the Barrens a Warfront and the mission table clearly shows that Night Elf forces are a constant thorn in the Horde's side, it seems the loss of Teldrassil and Theramore were merely proverbial setbacks. The goal of knocking the Alliance out quickly has failed (and predictably so even without our meta knowledge of how that is impossible), now the war has entered an attrition phase that the Horde can scarcely afford and Azerite is popping out everywhere so Silithus isn't even that valuable a foothold anymore.

A trap that isn't believable is a shit trap. Same reason why Garrosh amassed an army at Theramore to lure as many reinforcements from Alliance as possible. If Undercity was defended by a skeleton crew, Alliance would think something is shady and wouldn't just go all huzzah, let's conquer that bitch in an afternoon. Well, maybe they would if Varian was still alive, because the previous supreme commander of the Alliance was a military moron. Then again, he'd most likely spread his forces too thin across half the world again and manage to lose at Undercity against a skeleton crew anyway.

And Night Elves are a nuisance. Mosquitoes are also a nuisance, but they aren't going to win any wars on their own. As for Barrens, we will see how it goes. Maybe they will use their new Kul'tiras forces for it. After all Alliance itself has barely any ships left to even make that offensive possible.

So yeah, I'll reiterate, so far the only benefit this war has is getting the Zandalari into the fold, and she did little to secure that herself.

Except she's the one that was in contact with Talanji and the one to send a rescue team after her once Stormwind captured her and Zul, which is what sparks Zandalari joining.

Saurfang served in the Third War as part of the co-mingled vanguard of Orcs, Humans, Night Elves, and other races under the nominal command of Thrall, Jaina, Malfurion, and Tyrande at Hyjal. I would imagine he has a great deal of respect for Malfurion stemming from that experience - more than enough that he would want to duel Malfurion with the honor befitting a respected opponent.

So what you are saying is that fighting together with Malfurion and co. more than a decade ago made him question his allegiances to the point he outright disregarded orders and endangered his actual faction beyond measure?

[Aucald]

So what you are saying is that fighting together with Malfurion and co. more than a decade ago made him question his allegiances to the point he outright disregarded orders and endangered his actual faction beyond measure?

You leap to questions of allegiance very swiftly - I don't think Saurfang's decision had anything to do with his allegiance or his commitment to the ideals of the Horde, it had to do with his own personal code of honor and the very ideals he believes constitutes the bedrock of the Horde. Saurfang considered Malfurion an honorable man, and a worthy opponent - and his rash interference in the battle between Sylvanas and Malfurion (by blindsiding Malfurion) as a black mark on his own honor and that of the Horde as concerned conduct in battle. To atone for this, and to preserve his sense of honor, he saves Malfurion from death until a time they can meet again on the field of battle in an honorable fashion.

You can of course spurn and deride the idea of honor if you like, but it is very important to Saurfang - it is what separates the "New Horde" of Thrall's vision from the depraved and demon-addled Old Horde that once rampaged across Draenor and Azeroth. He allowed himself, for a moment, to indulge that old corruption (in his own view) through his interference, and so he makes up for it. He considers Sylvanas to have little to no honor given her underhanded tactics and willingness to adopt any means to assure victory, which slowly but surely becomes the force that leads him away from "her Horde." But let's not forget that his last battlefield declaration at the Battle of Lordaeron is a full commitment to the Horde. His problem, such as it is, concerns the current Warchief and not his loyalty to the Horde itself.

[ausoin]

A trap that isn't believable is a shit trap. Same reason why Garrosh amassed an army at Theramore to lure as many reinforcements from Alliance as possible. If Undercity was defended by a skeleton crew, Alliance would think something is shady and wouldn't just go all huzzah, let's conquer that bitch in an afternoon. Well, maybe they would if Varian was still alive, because the previous supreme commander of the Alliance was a military moron. Then again, he'd most likely spread his forces too thin across half the world again and manage to lose at Undercity against a skeleton crew anyway.

It wasn't a trap, Sylvanas plan was to take out the Alliance in one swift move, that failed. She had no plans of abandoning Undercity. If it wasn't for the void elves and gnomes the Alliance would have lost the battle in that chokepoint.

Sylvanas had no way of knowing that the reinforcements will spawn from void portals out of nowhere, as such it wasn't a trap but a last resort.

She also wouldn't have civilians be evacuated in the heat of battle if she planned to use the city as a trap, she would have evacuated them way before.

But screw logic.

And Night Elves are a nuisance. Mosquitoes are also a nuisance, but they aren't going to win any wars on their own. As for Barrens, we will see how it goes. Maybe they will use their new Kul'tiras forces for it. After all Alliance itself has barely any ships left to even make that offensive possible.

A nuisance that is somehow strong enough to attack the core of Horde lands? Okay...
It doesnt make sense that they were able to do that but its Blizz.

Barely any ships? You mean 6 ships that were destroyed by the trolls? I wasn't aware that the entire Alliance fleet consists of 6 ships.

[Deleted]

Man, just when I reroll Horde, I get Garbosh 2.0