Regarding Horde Massacres: Totally Different Perspectives on Each Side?

[Aucald]

Well that perspective is shite when compared to the one Alliance has.

I am not sure what you mean or are referring to? The Horde perspective is shite, or the Alliance one is? Which side are being a partisan for in this scenario?

[Blizzard Moneybot]

They probably wrote it one way, but changed it to not piss off one of the factions.

I'm loving this idea. It gives both factions a reason to fight for their actions. Or maybe Sylvanas is trying to hide her actions from the "honorable" horde as best as she can.

or it makes inconsistent bullshit because when Horde fans cry about not wanting to be the 'bad guys' Blizz acquiesces. Just like they give the Horde players all the allied races they want and the comfort of never experiencing a defeat in game because their feefees are so very important.

[Verdugo]

I am not sure what you mean or are referring to? The Horde perspective is shite, or the Alliance one is? Which side are being a partisan for in this scenario?

From Horde perspective, we have some vague political animosity comming from the Alliance, thats why they are hostile.

From Alliance perspective, Horde is a bunch of genocidal evil savages that eats babies and can witness it almost everywhere.

Gee, I wonder which faction has more motivation.

[Blizzard Moneybot]

This actually really bugs me, because unless we find out this is actual old god mindfuckery we can't say for sure which is actually the true way the burning of Teldrassil went down.

Old god fuckery is the wow lore development version of screeching 'nazi' in a political debate. It means you have no consistent writing and need a cheap, lame, bullshit excuse to appease the content consumers.

[Aucald]

This actually really bugs me, because unless we find out this is actual old god mindfuckery we can't say for sure which is actually the true way the burning of Teldrassil went down.

If both are true, then the Horde is about as unorganized and destructive as possible, because apparently half of the forces can believe they're doing a relatively honorable and peaceful attack while meanwhile there are piles of corpses and enslavement happening right under their noses. That doesn't exactly make the Horde better, it's just an inverse case of the ridiculous Broken Shore situation where one faction doesn't understand the context that made the situation make sense unless you view both of them. This time it's just in reverse with Alliance getting the full picture and Horde blissfully thinking they were fighting an honorable battle.

I'm all for making this divide and faction conflict happen naturally but this isn't natural, the lore is actually being separated into two canons per faction. I hope this is due to Old God shenanigans because otherwise this is a really crappy way to do a faction war story. If we assume both are truthful and both happened, then the Horde doesn't look any better simply because they didn't get to see the war crimes and brutality their own faction was committing, and in fact that arguably makes them look worse.

Both are true, and neither side is a monolith of either virtue or vice, as the case may be. The Horde vanguard that pushes through (led by the PC Champion and Saurfang) are honorable, more or less, conducting the offensive push with due decorum. The troops left to hold the passage don't have the same standards, unfortunately, are act in a rather unscrupulous or unworthy manner toward their Furbolg captives. The Alliance players sees the latter half of the total set of events, whereas the Horde players experiences the former, and so both perspectives come out of the same set events with a different overall impression. The Alliance/Horde cinematics of the Broken Shore achieved the same effect - relating an entirely different perspective of the *same* event, just by changing the focus.

[Wildstars]

So our current possibilities are

1.) "lol old god corruption", which has been used since Cataclysm to replace actual character motivations.

2.) The Horde player is a super good, honorable and righteous dude and "it's not evil, it's tactical" Sylvanas/the rest of the Horde comes in and butchers everyone when they know he isn't looking.

3.) This is all fake gameplay/dialogue like the human potential thing and at least one of Blizzard's managers has spent more time, effort, and money making something that's not even going into the game than they did with the Cataclysm storylines.

Quite frankly they all sound shit.

The most reasonable thing will be if it ends up with Alliance and Horde PC all this time were in different (but very similar in main events) universes.

[Minikin]

According to Red Shirt Guy:

So the Teldrassil questline's horde and alliance versions are completely incompatible. As in the events shown are so different they can't be reconciled. That's not "morally grey" writing, that's just really confusing.

For example in Darkshore, the Horde duels the furbolg chieftains in honorable combat to peacefully go through Darkshore without killing furbolgs. Alliance side the Horde has enslaved the furbolgs, put their chieftains in cages, and is forcing them to attack the Alliance.

In Astranaar, the Horde only attacks night elf combatants and takes great pains to ensure no civilians are harmed. Alliance side the Horde has rounded up all the civilians in the center of the town and mass executed them, with forsaken assassins and blight everywhere.

There’s a huge difference between different interpretations of events and events being different to the point that people either lived or died depending on the version.

- https://twitter.com/TheRedShirtGuy/s...35151854657537

They have done this before. In the purge of dalaran.

Alliance side: jaina never kills a sunreaver. Only incapacitates and teles them to prison. PC kills.

Horde side: jaina is killing ones that run, that fight, or surrender.

- - - Updated - - -

Spoilers :

It's N'Zoth messing with Horde / Alliance minds.

Could be but since they have done it once before I'm assuming it's just to show diff perspective to get the story going.

[mysticx]

Both Sylvanas and Anduin touched a mysterious ore, which was mined from the depths of a region well known for being corrupted by an old god.

Isn't this a strong indication that the ore might corrupt you? Just watch the look of both Sylvanas and Anduin after they touched the ore.

Player characters wore armour made from Saronite, the blood of Yogg-Saron, for two years without (apparent) adverse effect, now that might be a "Gameplay first"-thing (Or the PCs are psychos already and we didn't notice the difference :3 ), but i would think it takes more than a few minutes of holding and looking at Azerite for it to make people go a bit wibbly-wobbly in the head... (If it even has that effect at all)

[Aucald]

From Horde perspective, we have some vague political animosity comming from the Alliance, thats why they are hostile.

From Alliance perspective, Horde is a bunch of genocidal evil savages that eats babies and can witness it almost everywhere.

Gee, I wonder which faction has more motivation.

But neither of those extreme perspectives are necessarily completely true - the Horde does have legitimate grievances with the Alliance. and has been the recipient of unfair treatment for events that weren't the fault of the Horde (e.g. the withdrawal during the Broken Shore that led to Varian's death). The Alliance, too, has legitimate grievances - especially in light of more recent actions by the Horde as it seems to flex its might in a battle of wills with the Alliance.

[Aoyi]

I think a time difference is just the most likely explaination. They don’t want Horde players to feel like the villains, so they give them tasks that seem reasonable (focus only the guard, fight only the leaders, etc.). Everything the Alliance sees is the reality of the situation after the Horde player has moved on. Its going to be another Garrosh situation where the Horde is split between honorable and evil again. The expansion will likely end up with Old Gods, but we’ll probably get more player character Horde vs. Sylvanas Horde stuff as the expansion goes on.

[Blizzard Moneybot]

and has been the recipient of unfair treatment for events that weren't the fault of the Horde (e.g. the withdrawal during the Broken Shore that led to Varian's death).

ikr, those poor innocent Horde, no one in the Alliance can trust them for their actions SOLELY at the Broken Shore, and not every where else on the map. They will teach those Alliance jerks they aren't monsters by acting with decency, patience and respect to win back the trust like awful rotten pieces of shit deserving of no quarter.

The Alliance, too, has legitimate grievances - especially in light of more recent actions by the Horde as it seems to flex its might in a battle of wills with the Alliance.

They are the only ones with legitimate grievances: it's called Southshore, Ashenvale, Theramore, Darkshore and now Teldrassil. The Alliance has a mountain of grievances, any one of them sufficient cause to end the Horde once and for all under the guise of a 'threat to survival' and yet such thoughts make Anduin's bones hurt and you can always survive growing pumpkins in Stormwind. Meanwhile the Horde just keeps doubling down with the 'well we've already gone so far into this crime, we might as well leave no witnesses' mindset.

[Aurabolt]

Yeah, why can't both versions exist ?

If the Horde fights the furbolg chiefs to gain access, they can very well imprison them just so they don't sneak in their back.

If the Horde tries to make space for civilians, so they don't clash with the army, why couldn't some bad assassins sneak in after this and make a mass execution ? After all, you need the civilians to be out of the war path to call it a murder and not a casualty.

...Correct.

It's like folks didn't consider the possability BOTH perspectives are true and can be easily explained. The Furbolg Chieftains getting caged could have happened after the Horde PC already passed. Same with Astranaar's population getting mass murdered. The Alliance PC arrives after both incidents have already happened so there is no inconsistency.

[Dagoth Ur]

From Horde perspective, we have some vague political animosity comming from the Alliance, thats why they are hostile.

From Alliance perspective, Horde is a bunch of genocidal evil savages that eats babies and can witness it almost everywhere.

Gee, I wonder which faction has more motivation.

I wouldn't even care that much about that if we didn't know that Warcraft became a story where "good guys" have to win in the end. It's not even a question whether they'll win anymore, it's a question of how they'll win. And although I don't think they'll have one faction completely dismantle the other, so long as Sylvanas' goal is extermination of humans while Anduin's is turning Azeroth into Disney kingdom, you can bet which one is more likely to happen. Horde currently fights for something they know will never happen, that's kinda the problem imo. We're just waiting too see how that insufferable brat will teach us all how we can live together in peace.

[Doffen]

Gameplay > Story

[Blizzard Moneybot]

Gameplay > Story

Everything on GCD = shit gameplay

[Aucald]

ikr, those poor innocent Horde, no one in the Alliance can trust them for their actions SOLELY at the Broken Shore, and not every where else on the map. They will teach those Alliance jerks they aren't monsters by acting with decency, patience and respect to win back the trust like awful rotten pieces of shit deserving of no quarter.

They are the only ones with legitimate grievances: it's called Southshore, Ashenvale, Theramore, Darkshore and now Teldrassil. The Alliance has a mountain of grievances, any one of them sufficient cause to end the Horde once and for all under the guise of a 'threat to survival' and yet such thoughts make Anduin's bones hurt and you can always survive growing pumpkins in Stormwind. Meanwhile the Horde just keeps doubling down with the 'well we've already gone so far into this crime, we might as well leave no witnesses' mindset.

I am trying to keep the context of the conflict in its current frame - stemming from the Broken Shore, then on to Stormheim, Silithus, and now Teldrassil and Lordaeron. Chase it back far enough and it becomes murkier to deal with, which is where the lion's share of partisan contention on this subforum actually stems from. Hyperbole aside, the Alliance and Horde leader figures have radically and diametrically opposed philosophies - making conflict pretty much inevitable regardless of "who started it." It is your quintessential unstoppable force vs. immovable object conundrum.

[Blizzard Moneybot]

I am trying to keep the context of the conflict in its current frame - stemming from the Broken Shore, then on to Stormheim, Silithus, and now Teldrassil and Lordaeron. Chase it back far enough and it becomes murkier to deal with, which is where the lion's share of partisan contention on this subforum actually stems from. Hyperbole aside, the Alliance and Horde leader figures have radically and diametrically opposed philosophies - making conflict pretty much inevitable regardless of "who started it." It is your quintessential unstoppable force vs. immovable object conundrum.

yes, the Horde wants to kill off the Alliance because of muh survival and the Alliance apparently wants a hugbox because it's Anduin's desire and everyone else in this 'Alliance' bends a knee to the wishes of the High King; their own survival as a race means nothing so long as the dumpster fire that is the Alliance keeps on burning bright.
The leadership of the factions, particularly the Alliance is straight up shit, and only by their weakness and spinelessness are they 'diametrically opposed' to the Horde who is seeking and getting victory at all costs.

[Super Dickmann]

I think a time difference is just the most likely explaination. They don’t want Horde players to feel like the villains, so they give them tasks that seem reasonable (focus only the guard, fight only the leaders, etc.). Everything the Alliance sees is the reality of the situation after the Horde player has moved on. Its going to be another Garrosh situation where the Horde is split between honorable and evil again. The expansion will likely end up with Old Gods, but we’ll probably get more player character Horde vs. Sylvanas Horde stuff as the expansion goes on.

It's not even that, it's just people losing their shit over nothing again. In the Horde quests, the rogue NPC you're with uses poison on the guards and the guards are later found murdered with poison as Alliance. If you kill a civilian, there's extra dialogue from him and by the time Saurfang arrives, there's no civilians. Presumably that means canonically the civilians were killed by that point. Then once you leave, Forsaken rogues show up to prevent the alliance from taking it back by the time you do the Alliance quests.

It's the same with the Furbolg story. Sylvanas doesn't tell you to be honorable and challenge them to Mak'gora, she has you plant Horde banners over the camp, kill enough to cow them into compliance and then capture their leaders. Then once you leave and it's time for the alliance quests, the leaders are captured (but not in cages), and the rest are split between following the Horde and fighting back.

There's no contradiction, just people unable to follow cause and effect and immediately substituting what we actually see with fanfiction.

[Aucald]

yes, the Horde wants to kill off the Alliance because of muh survival and the Alliance apparently wants a hugbox because it's Anduin's desire and everyone else in this 'Alliance' bends a knee to the wishes of the High King; their own survival as a race means nothing so long as the dumpster fire that is the Alliance keeps on burning bright.
The leadership of the factions, particularly the Alliance is straight up shit, and only by their weakness and spinelessness are they 'diametrically opposed' to the Horde who is seeking and getting victory at all costs.

The Horde wants control of their own assumed territory absent the presence of hostile Alliance forces at their every border, whereas the Alliance wants a version of peace that requires either the absolute abnegation or subsuming of the Horde into its own hegemony. Both sides' require of "victory" is an unrealistic outcome save where one side succeeds in dismantling or destroying the other (as in their visions of peace require that the other side essentially not be there anymore), an outcome that can't by definition of the external context of the game they inhabit come to pass.

[Aeula]

Just more terrible Blizzard quality writing. They're trying to get us to hate each other but they're doing it in such a way that leaves everyone confused and unhappy.

It's shit like this that makes WoW one of the worst 'RPG'/MMO games for storytelling in the industry.