Why are the Horde always the aggressors

[Gramlen]

I woke up to a few new pages. And someone's had to turn in their plastic badge for a bit, as well! Small wonders.

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By the way... quietly observing what the Horde is doing in neutral territory? Not a hostile act.

And before you, you know, lie some more... no, Silithus is not Horde territory. Building a tent on neutral ground doesn't suddenly mean you own that part of the neutral territory.

Yes, it's the Horde's camp. But it's NOT the Horde's territory.

By your logic, the Alliance could unroll a sleeping bag in the middle of Orgrimmar and claim the land was theirs now.

Not a hostile act? Perhaps not. Not an acceptable act? Definitely, and the Horde is historically not one to send a strongly worded Cease and Desist Request to the High King. They just send the heads of insurgents back.

As for the last hill everyone's chosen to die on... come on, now. Silithus is neutral in name only. It might have been neutral territory back when the Cenarion Circle had a site and a modicum of influence in the region, but times have changed. The Circle's been all but obliterated. Silithus is surrounded by Horde outposts and encampments, a Horde capital city and easy access via Wind Rider and Zeppelin, on a Horde-controlled continent, and is now flush with a new, unknown resource for extraction. Silithus is as 'neutral' as Gadgetzan is, logistically; the key difference being that the neutral party staking claimant in the desert hasn't been wiped off the map yet. Just partially.

"WE ARE THE HORDE!!!"

/races mostly comprised of undead and other various beasts with sharp teeth or are huge scream as they raise war axes into the air.

(thus we are only an organization designed around self defense and peaceful expansion though agriculture and colonization under the guidance of treaty and agreements made with surrounding powers, races, and other beings in a hope to spread peaceful property across the world.)

It all just makes sense...

/s

Congratulations, you summarized the appeal of the Horde in an attempt at sarcasm. A conglomerate of races and people that the rest of the world sees as monsters and beasts, banding together to survive the next attempt to kill them for what they are.

[Powerogue]

First War, started by the Horde... Second War, started by the Horde... All of the faction conflicts during Cata, started by the Horde... Battle for Azeroth, started by the Horde...

Why can't the Alliance be the aggressors for once? Would be nice if the Horde wasn't always shoehorned into the role of bad guys and Alliance into the role of good guys.

Well there was that time Admiral Proudmoore attempted to assassinate Thrall, kicking off a chain of events that lead to the forming horde uniting against Theramore.

And that time the alliance forces ambushed the forsaken in Stormheim against Anduin's orders.

I could probably find more but the point is it happens from time to time. The rough cycle is the horde militarizes out of fear that the alliance will strike them down while they're weak (Siege of Orgrimmar, WotLK Battle for Undercity) and the alliance is concerned about the horde militarizing all the time so they build up their forces to try to stop whatever nefarious things they must be doing.

[Mixxy]

Not a hostile act? Perhaps not. Not an acceptable act? Definitely, and the Horde is historically not one to send a strongly worded Cease and Desist Request to the High King. They just send the heads of insurgents back.

As for the last hill everyone's chosen to die on... come on, now. Silithus is neutral in name only. It might have been neutral territory back when the Cenarion Circle had a site and a modicum of influence in the region, but times have changed. The Circle's been all but obliterated. Silithus is surrounded by Horde outposts and encampments, a Horde capital city and easy access via Wind Rider and Zeppelin, on a Horde-controlled continent, and is now flush with a new, unknown resource for extraction. Silithus is as 'neutral' as Gadgetzan is, logistically; the key difference being that the neutral party staking claimant in the desert hasn't been wiped off the map yet. Just partially.

That's actually a good point. The bit about the Cenarion Circle basically being wiped out. At least it's presence in Silithus. Hadn't considered that.

However, even if the zone has find itself suddenly without an owner, the Horde has yet to actually make any claim to it. And just because the Horde is closer doesn't mean they automatically get it. And you can say the Horde has its camps set up, but so does the Alliance.

In fact, if this formerly neutral ground suddenly wound up unclaimed, the Alliance has more reasonable justification for being present - they want to claim this unclaimed land just as bad as the Horde does. And neither side gets to claim it until they have a definitive hold of it, which the Horde does not, thanks to the Alliance players.

[Gramlen]

That's actually a good point. The bit about the Cenarion Circle basically being wiped out. At least it's presence in Silithus. Hadn't considered that.

However, even if the zone has find itself suddenly without an owner, the Horde has yet to actually make any claim to it. And just because the Horde is closer doesn't mean they automatically get it. And you can say the Horde has its camps set up, but so does the Alliance.

In fact, if this formerly neutral ground suddenly wound up unclaimed, the Alliance has more reasonable justification for being present - they want to claim this unclaimed land just as bad as the Horde does. And neither side gets to claim it until they have a definitive hold of it, which the Horde does not, thanks to the Alliance players.

Indeed the Alliance has camps set up. However, considering the current geographical environment (No Theramore, no direct route of transport of supplies, no path to reinforce a military presence, no long-term natural defensive position), it's a camp that is there only as long as the Horde allows it to be, and I'm of a mind that it's only there because of the only thing that Magni has proven he can do; stand nearby, and wag his finger. The moment he leaves to do his 'Speaker' duties elsewhere now that the Wound has been sufficiently healed to a point it isn't bleeding corruption into the soil anymore? The Alliance camp is a crater.

It's one thing to take a position, but you need to logistically hold that position, and presently? The Alliance has no hold on Silithus, and soon enough, Kalimdor entire.

[Mehrunes]

It super does though. The trade deal was "We'll give you every tree that falls down naturally."

When the Horde attacks and starts chopping down trees, they're the ones breaking the trade deal.

The Horde didn't attack because the NElves stopped sending lumber. The Horde attacked because Garrosh suddenly decided he wanted MORE lumber.

Except the Horde attacked only after the deal was broken. Time, how does it work?

"Potential faction-annihilating superweapon"
"None of the Alliance's business"

Hm...

*Alliance's level of knowledge about Azerite during the time of Silithus questline*
"What is it?"
"We don't know."
"But it appears the Horde does and we must learn more."

More or less direct quotes right there. And look at all dem mentions of superweapons in Alliance's statements that they are clueless about Azerite.

2.except this literally has nothing to do with real world politics, im alright to ignore with you, man these last 24 hours i have added more people to ignore then the last like three or four months

And given how in this thread you said nothing that wasn't you lying through your teeth, you being abjectly ignorant about the lore (or other topics, like international relations and state sovereignty over territory) or just completely honest brilliance, you publicly ignoring people that contest you on your brilliance when you run out of ways to bend over backwards achieves only one result, which is you exposing to the world why no one should ever take you seriously.

4. Lol umm Silithus is VERY, VERY far from horde encampments... The closest base is actually an alliance camp but ok buddy... whatever you want. and again its still neutral territory that was owned by the cenarion circle, but whatever bullshit you wanna fucking make bud

Which Alliance camp would that be? Feathermoon? Can't think of anything closer tbh. Anyway, there are Tauren camps in Feralas closer to Silithus border than Feathermoon. And it was owned by Cenarion Circle, but that was obliterated by Sargeras and went up for grabs. And it was first grabbed by the Horde, who had a camp in Silithus since Vanilla. Mind you that makes their camp Horde land and not entire Silithus, but it's the Horde camp that the Alliance encroached on.

5. except it is? this is neutral territory, the other faction has a right to know whats going on in neutral territory, and if the other faction decides to hide it from you, guess what dude THATS AN ACT OF WAR

The other faction has absolutely no right to know what the Horde is doing in a territory that does not belong to the Alliance. Especially when the Alliance wants to know what the Horde is doing in their own camps. Because newsflash, you brilliant genius: Alliance is not the owner of neutral zones, let alone of Horde camps in neutral zones.

So do tell the people in this thread more about your fascinating tale of how the Horde not disclosing the Alliance its own personal information that the Alliance is not entitled to in any way, shape or form is "AN ACT OF WAR". Jesus Christ, how can you be so fucking ignorant of literally every single topic you opened your mouth about in this godforsaken thread?

So you seem to have this idea that the horde is allowed to do whatever it wants but then if the alliance punishes them for such behavior its the alliances fault.

Yeah, the Horde is allowed to to whatever it wants in their own camps. And the Alliance has no authority to punish them for that because, and try to finally fucking get it, THE ALLIANCE ISN'T THE HORDE'S BOSS OR OVERLORD. God fucking damnit. So yeah, if the Alliance tries to exert authority over the Horde they don't actually have, they are at fault.

I ain't blaming tiy. As an Alliance player, I'm jealous of you. Just ONCE I want to be the one in control of events. I wanna be at the wheel. I want MY faction to actually DO SOMETHING for once, instead of just reacting to Horde actions.

My entire faction feels like a prop. Just some tool, used to justify and build upon the Horde's story.
The Alliance has no agency in its own stories. It's always just a part of the Horde's.

*Alliance starts a world war that lasted 4 years in-lore*
Alliance geniuses: "QQ my faction has no agency, it only ever reacts to the brutal aggressive Horde. Alliance is a prop for the Horde's story. MUH HORDE BIAS."

thing is the horde quest specificly orders you to kill them where the aliance quest does not

Which is irrelevant as the Alliance player cannot complete their quest without killing the Goblins. So dead Goblins is the canon outcome of the quest.

and again the aliance quest is AFTER so.

A notion you built on a mountain of lies and a brilliant take on the concept of reading the Alliance quest text.

The alliance wanted to buy guess what the horde started killing themn... they sent in spies first and the horde attacked ANY ALLIANCE THEY SAW not just the ones in their base, the ones at the azerite, ANY ALLIANCE THEY SAW, THEY KILLED

The Alliance wanted to buy? At least try to make it not obvious that you're lying through your teeth (in this case, because you are incapable of dealing with the fact that the Alliance player cannot get Azerite samples without killing Goblins). And Horde mining camp is a part of their goddamn outpost.

and no, spying in neutral territory is not an act of war, sorry buddy.

Horde camp isn't neutral territory. It's, as the name implies, Horde territory. Try to finally grasp that.

[Gramlen]

Yeah, the Horde is allowed to to whatever it wants in their own camps. And the Alliance has no authority to punish them for that because, and try to finally fucking get it, THE ALLIANCE ISN'T THE HORDE'S BOSS OR OVERLORD.

Some people refuse to accept that if you try to scold a people with 'YOU GUYS, YOU CAN'T DO THAT YOU GUYS!', let alone a people they've been at conflict with for at least a generation by now, you're going to get laughed at. Even moreso, if you try to demand obedience to a self-imposed enforcement of self-ordained law on people and land you have no sovereignty over.

Would be like if Humans showed up in Desolace and started shaking their fingers at Centaur. They have to listen! They're the Alliance! Did you not hear the sirens?!

[Logwyn]

It's even worse. They weren't asked to trade. They were obligated to trade, because they had a trade treaty with the Horde. Which they broke over Wrathgate already after WotLK, so about a year after Wrathgate happened. And the best part of that? After WotLK, the factions were attempting a peace process to end a war that the Alliance also started. Which they did also over Wrathgate. And breaking a trade treaty over the same event you already declared a war over and were trying to end by the time of the said trade treaty breaking is kinda psychotic.

But the Night Elves didn't start the war. Varian did in Undercity. Night Elves only took a dump on the peace process (and even then they had huge help from Varian as well).




One must be a particularly brilliant specimen of an Alliance genius to accuse @Chief Bennett of whitewashing Sylvanas.

Also, there was no betrayal of the Alliance at the Broken Shore, from any perspective. The Horde retreated immediately after the spaceships stopped shooting at them. The spaceships started shooting at them immediately after they warped in on the battlefield. The Horde clearly retreated because being fired at by spaceships broke their ranks. Alliance could see the spaceships warping in and firing at the Horde, they are visible from the Horde position. As such, Alliance had the information necessary to get to the conclusion that the Horde withdrew because of the spaceships.

Furthermore, once the Alliance got onto their gunship, they had the aerial view of the battlefield and they could see the Horde side was swarming with demons, because there were active portals on the Horde side.

Finally, just using basic logic, the Horde wants to live. Sylvanas more than anyone else. They had no logical reason to risk dooming the world by deliberately letting the Legion win just to fuck the Alliance over.

And given that the Alliance also retreated because of the Horde's retreat, once the Alliance learned that 1. Broken Shore was unwinnable without Pillars of Creation and 2. Broken Shore was a trap sprung by Detheroc who infiltrated the Alliance, the Alliance should kiss the Horde's ass for indirectly saving them by forcing them to retreat as well rather than staying in an unwinnable battle (on which Gul'dan dropped a Fel Reaver which would incinerate the Alliance if they weren't on the gunship).

And Genn learned about Eyir at the very end of Stormheim. He attacked Sylvanas at the very start of Stormheim. Try to figure out the chronology on your own.

Just more Sylvanas apologies. She evil and lost to the core. And now she has no right to the throne of undercity. A true heir is alive and well. Orcs, Trolls, Tauren just need to realize and kick her to the curb.. She'll be the death of the horde.

[Mehrunes]

What about Magni? He is the most literal example of 'world police' you can possibly get. And yet, when he starts waggling his finger at the Horde saying "YOU GUYS, STOP IT YOU GUYS!" they just ignore him and keep going anyway because Sylvanas wants power and Gallywix wants money.

Doesn't that make them in the wrong?

And who put him in authority over the Horde? When did the Horde accept that authority? Oh, right, no one and never.

Of course, for some unexplained reason, he's still alive in Battle for Azeroth, and is sending Gilnean corpses against the Alliance in Hillsbrad.

So, you know, chalk that up to Blizzard's awesomely consistent writing.

He was already alive during Legion. Well, pre-Legion invasion event. Even had some unique text in it, I think.

4. Camp mojache? you mean the camp that requires going all the way through thousand needles, tanaris and ungoro? All of kalimdor can see the sword sticking out of the ground...

and again "who is closest" does not fucking matter

You make me sad. You yourself engaged in "who is closest" when you thought Alliance is closest. When you were proven wrong, it's time to deflect with your brilliance. By the way, the Alliance camps in the vicinity you talked would also need need to go in a roundabout way.

it is still netural, stop making up your own rules, silithus is controled by the cenarion circle, a neutral faction aswell as the bronze dragonflight GASP also a neutral faction.

Learn what neutral means, then talk about making up one's own rules. Cenarion Circle control over Silithus was destroyed by Sargeras. Horde was the first to get there after Sargeras' cleansing. And if you want to cling on them being there in Vanilla, newsflash, so was the Horde. And what Bronze Dragonflight in Silithus? Can't you even spot the difference between Silithus and Tanaris?

5. oh yeah i was gunna put you on ignore, yeah bye.

Yes, do expose yourself for what you really are to the world.

<image snip>

Now point out the Alliance camp you said was closer than this.

There is all your proof, and the final time i will be wasting responding to you, also love the signatue thanks for advertising my name around <3

You do realize not all publicity is good publicity?

[Gramlen]

Just more Sylvanas apologies. She evil and lost to the core. And now she has no right to the throne of undercity. A true heir is alive and well. Orcs, Trolls, Tauren just need to realize and kick her to the curb.. She'll be the death of the horde.

An heir to a fallen kingdom was alive and well. Then she tried to incite rebellion, and was killed for her hubris.

Sylvanas is making questionable choices and decisions, but the Warchief is the Warchief, until she is a direct threat to the Horde's survival, whether it be it's values or it's legitimate existence. We're beginning to see the cracks of the former showing with Saurfang's dismissal, but the rest is what we have to wait and see unfold.

[Mixxy]

*Alliance starts a world war that lasted 4 years in-lore*
Alliance geniuses: "QQ my faction has no agency, it only ever reacts to the brutal aggressive Horde. Alliance is a prop for the Horde's story. MUH HORDE BIAS."

A war that was declared in reaction to the Wrathgate betrayal, the Forsaken secretly developing Blight and Garrosh's brazen attack against the High King, in broad daylight, in neutral Dalaran during a peaceful meeting.

The declaration was just there because Blizz wanted to write faction conflict. Because Blizz wanted to justify having the Horde attack the Alliance at Icecrown Citadel.

So, yes. It was very much just prop to do write more for the Horde.

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An heir to a fallen kingdom was alive and well. Then she tried to incite rebellion, and was killed for her hubris.

And was resurrected. So now she's an undead heir to the kingdom. Where Sylvanas is an undead conqueror of that same kingdom.

Calia still has more claim to the throne of Lordaeron than Sylvanas.

[Mehrunes]

I find it unlikely, considering how Before the Storm went. It might be likely that there's some cinematic where Anduin and Sylvanas actually stand face to face - possibly the battle for Lordaeron outro.

Eh, unlikely. Alliance (including Anduin) is stalled by Saurfang. Who by that time was already left to his own devices by Sylvanas as she was about to leave.

Correct me if I am wrong but last time I checked, Mia was not dead. Injured, maybe, but she survived. She made it out of Teldrassil.

Yes, she lives.

There's two things wrong with that example. First, they were on neutral ground, not in either nation's territory. Yes, Undercity counted as neutral ground the moment the Forsaken lost it to the Legion. Notice how Varian never attempts to invade Undercity until the Forsaken lose control of it?

By the time he declared war Undercity was already reconquered. Varian realized the Horde was in the city precisely because he heard their victory cry. Secondly, you pulled the requirement that a leader of a nation has to be attacked in their own territory for that attack to count as an act of war out of dark crevice of fanfiction in a weak-ass attempt to handwave this away.

Second, he didn't kill or assassinate Thrall, and we have no idea if he intended to. And whatever his intentions were, it doesn't really matter. Because what happened is he traded some blows with Thrall and then left. Sure, war could have happened if Thrall wasn't Thrall. But Thrall wanted to keep the peace as much as anyone, and Varian definitely did not seem intent on formally declaring war afterwards and making decisive movements on Horde territory.

Yeah, he went at him with a sword, but he really wanted a hug. Please. And war not only could have happened, it did happen. As per Chronicle v3 and indirectly The Shattering.

In short: What Varian did could have been considered an act of war, but it wasn't. And the presence of the Alliance in the Undercity is once again a reaction to something the Horde is responsible for.

The Horde isn't responsible for the acts of the people who already left the Horde by rising a rebellion against it.

[Gramlen]

And was resurrected. So now she's an undead heir to the kingdom.

A fact that nobody knows yet, and I am curious to see how it plays out. Especially considering that she is a Light-infused undead, which is an anathema to the Forsaken of Lordaeron. Would be like having to swear fealty to a walking, talking bonfire.

Yes, do expose yourself for what you really are to the world.

Let's be real, here; even if I'm on Ignore, everything I've contributed is still being read by them. However, they've written themselves into a corner, as now lashing out in response means that they're not only incapable of being honest, but also incapable of following through with actions implied. Publicly stating you've Ignored someone you're incapable of arguing against is a masterstroke of foolishness; you've not only lost, but you've scorched the earth around you on any hope of future rebuttal.

[Mehrunes]

Calia only wanted them to desert/join her, not to take over.

Calia wants to rule Forsaken in general. That requires her taking over Sylvanas' role.

I haven't read Chronicle v3, so I'm not up to date with any retarded retcons they made.

Not only are those "retarded retcons" canon lore, they aren't even retcons because it was clear to anyone that's not an Alliance genius that Varian declared war in Undercity. Which is why ever since WotLK the Alliance-Horde war was said to have started with that declaration on its wowpedia article.

Eyir isn't a race but the val'kyr are. Did you pay attention? She wasn't interested in just Eyir. She wanted Eyir so Eyir could crap out fresh val'kyr for her as much as she wanted. Genn stopped her from doing it. But if you wanna say that Genn truly attacked Sylvanas, then it's because she killed his son first. Action > Reaction.

Right. Which is why in Before the Storm she explicitly says she was only after Eyir. Did you pay attention? Of course not, because you're not interested in "retarded" (read: inconvenient) retcons (even if they aren't really retcons).

And Sylvanas killed Liam in a war that ended years ago.

[Leodric]

First War, started by the Horde... Second War, started by the Horde... All of the faction conflicts during Cata, started by the Horde... Battle for Azeroth, started by the Horde...

Why can't the Alliance be the aggressors for once? Would be nice if the Horde wasn't always shoehorned into the role of bad guys and Alliance into the role of good guys.

Because majority of the people already chose the side based on their alignment. Horde was always the aggressor and Alliance the passive protagonist. Aligns also with the culture of the Horde which is predominant Orc, meaning barbaric and being pro-war. I thought Blizzard would have wanted to make a more subtle apporach with Sylvanas, but she baltantly started the next war with the Horde.

They will most likely create another raid where the Alliance has to beat the Horde again just to let them get away thanks to Anudins mercy or something like that. There is obviously going to be the old gods as a higher enemy, let's see if the Horde will do another backstab move, something like Wrathgate 2.0.

[Mehrunes]

Varian's declaration of war was a heated, spontaneous decision made after he witnessed the abject horrors the Forsaken subject prisoners and fallen enemy soldiers to. After he learned that, despite the small uneasy truce the Alliance and Horde had agreed to years prior, the Forsaken were still secretly abducting and experimenting on humans specifically to create a weapon to kill them all. The Blight.

But what if there was a steady stream supply of humans that were hostile to both the Horde and the Alliance right at Undercity's doorstep? What if... Also, he focuses his rant almost entirely on the Orcs, only briefly calling Sylvanas a witch.

That doesn't excuse the fact that Varian let his emotions get the better of him, of course, but neither side really treated it as a formal declaration. Neither side acted on it at all... until Icecrown, where the two factions were supposed to be co-operating... and then the Horde decided to start attacking the Alliance.

Yeah, they only attempted peace talks after WotLK. Peace talks that were so heated they went to shit because they couldn't agree on anything even before Thrall left on his Sayian quest. And only achieved a temporary ceasefire. Which requires a war.

Furthermore, Chronicle v3, an omniscient source, literally calls Varian's antics in Undercity a declaration of war as well. So no amount of Alliance brilliance from the genial posters on this forum is going to change this reality.

Genn learned about Eyir and the Val'kyr at the end of Stormheim, but the Alliance still knew she was up to SOMETHING shifty in Stormheim, thanks to the intel gathered in Azsuna. Intel which was absolutely acquired before the events of Stormheim thanks to a fun fact and a little common sense.

Common sense? You do realize that common sense is nothing more than a logical fallacy?

First of all, there's nothing indicating the zone order from before Blizzard changed things is canon.

Secondly, the Horde also has a quest for the book. It's mutually exclusive with the Alliance one. So far none of you Alliance geniuses has provided any shred of a source for the idea that it's the Alliance quest that's canon and not the Horde one.

Thirdly, Genn himself repeatedly claims he has no clue about what Sylvanas is up to numerous times throughout Storheim. After the attack. Which supposedly happened over him knowing things he does no longer know later on.

Try to figure out how the idea Genn had the book doesn't really stick together into a logical whole on your own. I already explained it enough throughout the thread.

The fun fact is that Azsuna was slated to be the starting zone for the Alliance in the Broken Isles before Blizzard decided to do the level scaling thing, meaning that it would've been written to be first, chronologically.

And Blizzard said it in an interview in which they talked about how they scratched the zone order. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

The common sense is "Why would someone have given their life to send vital intel about an event that has already happened?" After Stormheim, Sylvanas' plans for Eyir and the Val'kyr was in the open. So why try to warn anyone about it?

Because Worgen aren't a hive mind and a guy that found a book from Azsuna may not know if Genn already caught up with Sylvanas or not? Given now, once again, Genn himself repeatedly states during Stormheim questline he doesn't know what Sylvanas is up to, the book would be valuable to him even after the initial attack.

And, like has been said above, there's zero proof that Alliance version of the book quest is canon to begin with.

[MechaCThun]

@Mehrunes

I wouldn't bother trying to debate, argue or otherwise engage in conversation with FelPlague. Literally this person's entire history on this forum is that of baseless arguments for the sake of arguing. No facts, no regard for logic, and definitely no regard for other poster's opinions they voice or points they discuss. Just mindlessly defending his/her/itself from any form of opposing opinion.

Hence why they're banned for it.

Again.

[Tarba]

Alliance is the agressor in Stormheim and Silithus.
Destroying the fleet and trying to assassinate the current warchief "because they had an opportunity" and killing civilians miners.

Alliance don't know shit about what Sylvanas wants in Stormheim until the last three quests of the zone.

All the agressions horde / alliance in legion are started by the alliance.
But it seems nobody notices.

[Mehrunes]

Didn't the Battle for Undercity happen after Ulduar?

Yes. 3.0 leveling questline in mid-level zone totally happened after 3.1 raid content.

Because I distinctly remember Garrosh personally attacking Varian on neutral ground, at a peaceful meeting, just prior to Ulduar's release.

You mean Horde and Alliance didn't kill each other during a meeting governed by a neutral third party in the territory of said third party? Who'd have thunk. I mean, it's not like Rhonin didn't even inform each of them that the other side was also contacted, or that they even learned about this fact because Thrall and Garrosh arrived too early.

Didn't the Nelves stop their lumber exports to Orgrimmar as a response to the Horde betrayal at Wrathgate? Something that happened before Varian's declaration at Undercity? Wouldn't that make it the Horde's fault?

They stopped it only during the events of the Shattering. Also, Varian's declaration at Undercity happened moments after Wrathgate.

And just because it was a splinter group doesn't mean it wasn't the Horde's fault. Any ruling body has an obligation to control its forces and take responsibility for when they can't.

Except they weren't Horde forces. They were traitors in open rebellion.

Because it was the conflict the airships were in the middle of fighting before they arrived at the citadel?

Right. Never mind that one happened in 3.0 and the other in 3.3, making them months apart in-lore.

[Mixxy]

Yes. 3.0 leveling questline in mid-level zone totally happened after 3.1 raid content.

Also, Varian's declaration at Undercity happened moments after Wrathgate

Only source I could find on when the Battle for Undercity was actually made available ingame states it was 3.3.
"Added in patch 3.3.0.10772"

Keep in mind, I'm not talking about Wrath Gate. I'm talking about the Undercity scenario.

They stopped it only during the events of the Shattering.

Fair enough! But if you'll permit me to split a few hairs, I dunno if I'd call that being the "aggressor". The aggressor is the person or power to strike the first blow.

So while the Ashran conflict is on the Nelves, I'd still call the Horde the aggressor of that battle.

(Besides, if the Alliance and Horde were already at war at that point, doesn't it make sense for the Nelves to renege on the trade deal?)

[Mehrunes]

From a player perspective this is incorrect. The Alliance is sent there to observe and try to gather some of the dust. The horde is sent there to eliminate the alliance. The alliance first quest killing miners to obtain dust is a direct response to their scouts being killed and observation no longer being a viable option. The horde first quest is killing Alliance spies which is what kicks off the Alliance first quest.

Yeah, no. The thing about the passive observation the Alliance player is informed about was merely that it didn't get any results. Not a word about them being attacked, let alone killed. One would think the most elite special ops organization the Alliance has would inform their new arrivals that the operation has been made and that the Horde is on high alert. It's not like it's crucial information for an operative or anything. Alas, you lot would rather turn SI:7 to be a group of abject retards rather than accept the obvious.

Back to the real world. No Alliance operative has been discovered and killed by the Horde when the Alliance player arrived. Yet when the Horde questline starts, they are discovered. Whichever questline could start first????? The one when Alliance spies are still covert, or the one in which they are not? If only there was an easy answer to this question...

The claim that Alliance quest to kill Goblins is a direct response to Horde's actions is even more baseless, because the Alliance quest-giver says nothing whatsoever about killing the Goblins. Which necessitates that they don't talk about it being a reprisal for Horde's actions either. They only want samples.

And the order the Horde player is given? To kill Alliance skulking around their operation. Because it was secret and the Horde wanted to keep it that way. Nathanos' order was even about "any Alliance". Not about specific people already discovered. Which makes it rather clear it was an order about preemptive measure. But when it comes to killing any specific Alliance, that require the Horde to *gasp* find out about their presence first. Which loops back to how no such thing has been stated to have happened in the Alliance questline.