Amesbury Novichok contaminated item search continues

[AeneasBK]

Are we talking about the same place though? Nope. Porton Down had nothing to do with that, considering it was a separate country. It’s also worth noting that when you go in and out of biohazard labs you have to shower (depending on the type it can be twice if you’re wearing a suit). So, the fact you have to get naked and have a shower literally means you cannot take anything out of those labs. Novichok is a bit harder to come across than ya good old anthrax as well. Security has changed a hell of a lot since as well.

How many times have you visited Porton Down?

[THEORACLE64]

How many times have you visited Porton Down?

It's standard biohazard level 4 protocol. Look it up.

[Noradin]

Really? I would say they are about the same.

Yes, you would, but I'm not from Russia. (I'm not from the UK either.)

[Barnabas]

i'm sure you can google the wiki.

the creator of novichok published the formula is his book in 2008. anyone can make it if you have access to a lab. how difficult is this to grasp? it's public information. i found it so why can't you?

here is NIST listing.

[Shalcker]

I direct you to my above post. Try again, kid. Logistics don't allow for what you're saying essentially.

Look, we know how to neutralise Novichok... you just put it under water and it decomposes rapidly. In a hours at most nothing dangerous will remain. It requires water-vapour-free atmosphere in creation process by creator's descriptions to prevent that. You don't need anything special for decontamination.

No facility can hold "constant vigilance" over multiple decades. Generally people get more lax over time with holes in security that can be exploited by determined individuals (ones with insider access, obviously), and only scandals and inspections from outside by different departments can sometimes "revert" this process. As you seem to be unable to show existence of such inspections, default assumption for me should be that those security measures aren't necessarily adequate.

[THEORACLE64]

Look, we know how to neutralise Novichok... you just put it under water and it decomposes rapidly. In a hours at most nothing dangerous will remain. It requires water-vapour-free atmosphere in creation process by creator's descriptions to prevent that. You don't need anything special for decontamination.

No facility can hold "constant vigilance" over multiple decades. Generally people get more lax over time with holes in security that can be exploited by determined individuals (ones with insider access, obviously), and only scandals and inspections from outside by different departments can sometimes "revert" this process. As you seem to be unable to show existence of such inspections, default assumption for me should be that those security measures aren't necessarily adequate.

Of course they can. You know why? Because it’s not just left out of shelves for people to pick up, get showered twice with, and somehow make disappear when naked. I mean, going by your last post, it wouldn’t even make it last the shower! All of those high category substances are kept under lock and key and require written and signed off permission to be obtained inside of the lab. You can’t just cherry pick that stuff out. You have no logic behind what you’re saying, it’s basiaclly uneducated/tin-foil hat conspiracy at this point.

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For fuck's sake... Just knowing the name or empirical formula doesn't allow you to synthesize the compound.

Hello, smart person. It’s just entertaining at this point to see what they come up with next, due the lack of any kind of science background. They’re basically zoo monkeys at this point.

[Shalcker]

Of course they can. You know why? Because it’s not just left out of shelves for people to pick up, get showered twice with, and somehow make disappear when naked. I mean, going by your last post, it wouldn’t even make it last the shower! All of those high category substances are kept under lock and key and require written and signed off permission to be obtained inside of the lab. You can’t just cherry pick that stuff out. You have no logic behind what you’re saying, it’s basiaclly uneducated/tin-foil hat conspiracy at this point.

Speaking about logic... Look, shower is for external contamination, not for insiders. Obviously anyone smuggling it out would use sealed container - anything else would be suicide.

Naked? Please show me where "being naked" is part of Porton Down everyday security practices - as well as anal probing (because that's the usual storage spot for naked situations).

Classical fraud simply writes X amount of substance being used in experiment while using less and then getting that extra out - because everyone trusts their word just like you're doing now. As one-time deal that often doesn't get caught.

[AeneasBK]

It's standard biohazard level 4 protocol. Look it up.

I was just curious because I've been to Porton Down about 20 years ago. Whilst I'm sure we didn't visit the "super top secret" parts of it; for the most part of the labs we visited, it was a case of "Seriously don't bring any food or drink into this building, just in case." Most of the research being done there wasn't into chemical weapons any more, although they had an interesting "public museum" of the history of it.

I wasn't trying to dispute what you were saying I was just curious if you had been to this particular facility ever.

[THEORACLE64]

Speaking about logic... Look, shower is for external contamination, not for insiders. Obviously anyone smuggling it out would use sealed container - anything else would be suicide.

Naked? Please show me where "being naked" is part of Porton Down everyday security practices - as well as anal probing (because that's the usual storage spot for naked situations).

Classical fraud simply writes X amount of substance being used in experiment while using less and then getting that extra out - because everyone trusts their word just like you're doing now. As one-time deal that often doesn't get caught.

The being naked part refers to the shower - when you leave a level 4 biohazard lab, if you’re wearing a hazmat you have a decontamination shower and then you get undressed to have a personal shower (the naked part). You cannot just put something inside a hazmat suit and sneak it out, because you’re being watched and monitored by several people. You enter the personal shower room in the lab clothes, take them off, have a shower and then enter a different room where your normal clothes are. You’ll have a towel, but it’ll be provided and disposed of before you then get dressed. There’s no possible way to leave with anything *at all*. You’d be stopped, and if you didn’t you’d be shot. Porton Down is highly secure and a highly secretive facility - it’s essentially the known Area 51. You have no opportunity to enter those labs with anything and you have no opportunity to leave with anything. Nobody’s going to shove a canister of Novichok up their asshole.

[Puupi]

Nobody’s going to shove a canister of Novichok up their asshole.

You'd be surprised with the power money has.

[Shalcker]

Completely irrelevant as the method of exposure to fentanyl and Novichok are not the same.

Actually they is exactly the same - you can get fethanyl through skin patches, inhalation, eating it and so on.

Effects are different, obviously.

[Shalcker]

The being naked part refers to the shower - when you leave a level 4 biohazard lab, if you’re wearing a hazmat you have a decontamination shower and then you get undressed to have a personal shower (the naked part). You cannot just put something inside a hazmat suit and sneak it out, because you’re being watched and monitored by several people.

Generally that's the failure point. People cannot watch each other constantly with unchanging diligence when nothing happens for years.

You enter the personal shower room in the lab clothes, take them off, have a shower and then enter a different room where your normal clothes are. You’ll have a towel, but it’ll be provided and disposed of before you then get dressed. There’s no possible way to leave with anything *at all*. You’d be stopped, and if you didn’t you’d be shot. Porton Down is highly secure and a highly secretive facility - it’s essentially the known Area 51. You have no opportunity to enter those labs with anything and you have no opportunity to leave with anything. Nobody’s going to shove a canister of Novichok up their asshole.

If it wasn't sealed tight you would already be dead, so asshole is exactly as safe/dangerous as holding it in hand. And with Novichok we're talking about potentially just milligram, if not microgram amounts being smuggled out...

No anal probing -> potential security weakness.

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Except that the ld50 for fentanyl is approximately 100-10000 times greater than for Novichok, but hey "completely similar".

Fethanyl LD50 in monkeys is 30 micrograms; 7 microgram per kilo is LD50 for VX, or about 0.56 milligram for 80 kg person.

They are pretty comparable. Novichok is only 5 to 10 times more deadly then VX, which would amount to only being 20-40 times more deadly then fethanyl max.

[Fargus]

Of course they can. You know why? Because it’s not just left out of shelves for people to pick up, get showered twice with, and somehow make disappear when naked. I mean, going by your last post, it wouldn’t even make it last the shower! All of those high category substances are kept under lock and key and require written and signed off permission to be obtained inside of the lab. You can’t just cherry pick that stuff out. You have no logic behind what you’re saying, it’s basiaclly uneducated/tin-foil hat conspiracy at this point.

Again, I will ask, if these places are so secure and impossible to obtain compounds that be maliciously used on the outside, then how did anthrax get into letters and sent to US senators after 9/11?

Are you being an armchair biohazard security expert or do you actually work in the field?

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Except that the ld50 for fentanyl is approximately 100-10000 times greater than for Novichok, but hey, "completely similar".

Might wanna read his post again.

[THEORACLE64]

Generally that's the failure point. People cannot watch each other constantly with unchanging diligence when nothing happens for years.

If it wasn't sealed tight you would already be dead, so asshole is exactly as safe/dangerous as holding it in hand. And with Novichok we're talking about potentially just milligram, if not microgram amounts being smuggled out...

No anal probing -> potential security weakness.

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Fethanyl LD50 in monkeys is 30 micrograms; 7 microgram per kilo is LD50 for VX, or about 0.56 milligram for 80 kg person.

They are pretty comparable. Novichok is only 5 to 10 times more deadly then VX, which would amount to only being 20-40 times more deadly then fethanyl max.

Nobody would have the opportunity to slide it up into their ass - not unless you’re wanting to put on a show for the cameras and your supervisor. Like I’ve said, you are constantly watched in that place so you have zero opportunity. None. Nil.

[Shalcker]

Ld50 for Novichok is 0.22 micrograms/kg. The difference is over 100 fold.

Show me where you got that number from.

As far as i see both fethanyl and VX/Novichok LD50 are counted in micrograms. Difference is negligible.

2 milligrams of fethanyl is fully fatal for average human.

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Nobody would have the opportunity to slide it up into their ass - not unless you’re wanting to put on a show for the cameras and your supervisor. Like I’ve said, you are constantly watched in that place so you have zero opportunity. None. Nil.

That's not how humans operate, sorry. "Constantly watched" doesn't happen in reality.

[THEORACLE64]

Show me where you got that number from.

As far as i see both fethanyl and VX/Novichok LD50 are counted in micrograms. Difference is negligible.

2 milligrams of fethanyl is fully fatal for average human.

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That's not how humans operate, sorry. "Constantly watched" doesn't happen in reality.

In places like Porton Down, the highest military research labs yes, you're watched and monitored all the time. So please, explain to me, if someone is wearing a biohazard suit and is being watched and monitored when they're in the lab how would they be able to slide a cannister inside of their ass without being noticed (and through a biohazard suit?)

[Mormolyce]

Seriously - are we no longer enforcing the rule about conspiracy theories?

Because if not, I can start posting heaps of them.

the creator of novichok published the formula is his book in 2008. anyone can make it if you have access to a lab. how difficult is this to grasp? it's public information. i found it so why can't you?

here is NIST listing.

Okay, synthesise some then.

[Shalcker]

In places like Porton Down, the highest military research labs yes, you're watched and monitored all the time.

You're supposed to be but not necessarily are in reality.

[THEORACLE64]

You're supposed to be but not necessarily are in reality.

Apart from in places like Porton Down you are - you're constantly being watched. Dodging the question I see, because there's no logical explanation. Thanks.

[Shalcker]

Apart from in places like Porton Down you are - you're constantly being watched. Dodging the question I see, because there's no logical explanation. Thanks.

You're dodging requests to show this actually being protocol; as you cannot provide it nor show that it gets independently verified i see no reason to trust your belief in the system.