As Horde, i have no motivation to hate the alliance

[mickybrighteyes]

you realize that quote clearly state how he become mad was because he didn't want the Alliance to take control of the land? it not because "get something over him" a unknown land of no one is a golden mine and the ones who take first win

i have to ask.... are you familiar with the meaning behind the phrase to have something over someone? The alliance having more territory would be something they'd have to utilize for the fight against the horde. The reason I say it so is that this ONE report of the lone boat getting chased across the ocean and getting run aground is enough to have the entire war effort up and changed because a landmass was found. No info on what kind of landmass beyond "hidden in mist" is enough to get Garrosh thinking the alliance might have something? and the outburst of "you let them get there first" when YEAH, the horde fleet CHASED them into the shoreline. it's a very poor line of logic given the information seen.

[Syegfryed]

i have to ask.... are you familiar with the meaning behind the phrase to have something over someone? The alliance having more territory would be something they'd have to utilize for the fight against the horde. The reason I say it so is that this ONE report of the lone boat getting chased across the ocean and getting run aground is enough to have the entire war effort up and changed because a landmass was found. No info on what kind of landmass beyond "hidden in mist" is enough to get Garrosh thinking the alliance might have something? and the outburst of "you let them get there first" when YEAH, the horde fleet CHASED them into the shoreline. it's a very poor line of logic given the information seen.

yes because he think it was a land where the alliance could get and take for her, exactly what happens: the alliance also fight for the land, as manchild Garros can be, the reason " nu hun you do not get there first" was not the reason he send his forces there

of couse thet are chasing the ship, they are fighting, you do not let the enemies escape like that.

[Oneirophobia]

Yup...keep telling yourself that...that she dedicated her fleet to the aegis and not to have a army at her beck and call for when she was prepared to enslave the Val'kyr. It was to secure the Aegis

She literally tells you word for word she’s going solo for other reasons and that you and the fleet are their to secure the aegis. I’m not sure how much more blatant that can get.

[mickybrighteyes]

yes because he think it was a land where the alliance could get and take for her, exactly what happens: the alliance also fight for the land, as manchild Garros can be, the reason " nu hun you do not get there first" was not the reason he send his forces there

of couse thet are chasing the ship, they are fighting, you do not let the enemies escape like that.

ok pause... what the fuck happened to this train of thought...

I was saying both factions only wind up going anywhere NEAR panda land because ONE SHIP ran aground there. The reason it was run aground was because it was engaged by enemy ships and chased. I was trying to understand the reason for the event that lead to that vessel getting targeted and if there was anything more than the line Nazgrim states about finding an envoy and chasing the royal flagship.

Talking about how pandaria is a wealth of resources, or either faction taking control there... was not part of THAT plan as the continent was unknown prior to The Vanguard getting a permanent docking site on a very shallow beach. The reasons AFTER the beaching are not what I was trying to discuss in anyway shape or form as those reasons are covered in books and in game quests while all details concerning The Vanguard and it's journey are less than what I've typed in this response (unless you're alliance side and find some waterlogged text).

[Aucald]

ok pause... what the fuck happened to this train of thought...

I was saying both factions only wind up going anywhere NEAR panda land because ONE SHIP ran aground there. The reason it was run aground was because it was engaged by enemy ships and chased. I was trying to understand the reason for the event that lead to that vessel getting targeted and if there was anything more than the line Nazgrim states about finding an envoy and chasing the royal flagship.

Talking about how pandaria is a wealth of resources, or either faction taking control there... was not part of THAT plan as the continent was unknown prior to The Vanguard getting a permanent docking site on a very shallow beach. The reasons AFTER the beaching are not what I was trying to discuss in anyway shape or form as those reasons are covered in books and in game quests while all details concerning The Vanguard and it's journey are less than what I've typed in this response (unless you're alliance side and find some waterlogged text).

I see the rough sequence of events as follows:

1.) Anduin, the "White Pawn," is on a diplomatic mission of some sort that has him aboard the Vanguard, in the southern seas of Azeroth.
2.) The Horde's Southern Fleet receives intelligence that an Alliance ship is nearby, with a possible high-value Alliance target on board.
3.) The Horde fleet gives chase, pushing into uncharted waters and perilously close to the Pandaren continent (only recently brought back into the world due to the Cataclysm).
4.) The Vanguard runs aground after being briefly lost in the mists, still under attack from the Horde fleet. Anduin is put into the hold of the ship to protect him, but the ship is taking on water and sinking, so Anduin escapes the hold and finds himself abroad in a new and unexplored land.

Garrosh and Nazgrim are likely alerted to the situation on Pandaria by magic (likely via Ga'trul, the Warlock in control of Garrosh'ar Point, the Horde's first base of operations in Pandaria), similar to how the Alliance high command was alerted of the attack via a Kaldorei scrying pool.

[Steampunkette]

I see the rough sequence of events as follows:

1.) Anduin, the "White Pawn," is on a diplomatic mission of some sort that has him aboard the Vanguard, in the southern seas of Azeroth.
2.) The Horde's Southern Fleet receives intelligence that an Alliance ship is nearby, with a possible high-value Alliance target on board.
3.) The Horde fleet gives chase, pushing into uncharted waters and perilously close to the Pandaren continent (only recently brought back into the world due to the Cataclysm).
4.) The Vanguard runs aground after being briefly lost in the mists, still under attack from the Horde fleet. Anduin is put into the hold of the ship to protect him, but the ship is taking on water and sinking, so Anduin escapes the hold and finds himself abroad in a new and unexplored land.

Garrosh and Nazgrim are likely alerted to the situation on Pandaria by magic (likely via Ga'trul, the Warlock in control of Garrosh'ar Point, the Horde's first base of operations in Pandaria), similar to how the Alliance high command was alerted of the attack via a Kaldorei scrying pool.

I'd like to make one change to your proposed timeline:

Putting Anduin in the Hold would be a massive risk with fighting and cannonfire. A better plan would be to use the Mists of Pandaria to cover his escape by rowboat and use the ship itself as a big ol' target while Anduin and his honor guard make their way to safety. At least until the battle is over. His stuff, of course, would be left behind in the rush to get him to safety. No time to grab his banner or his books or anything.

[Aucald]

I'd like to make one change to your proposed timeline:

Putting Anduin in the Hold would be a massive risk with fighting and cannonfire. A better plan would be to use the Mists of Pandaria to cover his escape by rowboat and use the ship itself as a big ol' target while Anduin and his honor guard make their way to safety. At least until the battle is over. His stuff, of course, would be left behind in the rush to get him to safety. No time to grab his banner or his books or anything.

This isn't really a proposed or speculated timeline, it's the timeline of events that actually do occur (excepting my speculation as to how Garrosh and Nazgrel are contacted). Anduin is indeed put in the hold of the ship, though I agree that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either in terms of a naval battle. Unless perhaps the hold is fortified against cannonfire.

[Steampunkette]

This isn't really a proposed or speculated timeline, it's the timeline of events that actually do occur (excepting my speculation as to how Garrosh and Nazgrel are contacted). Anduin is indeed put in the hold of the ship, though I agree that doesn't make a whole lot of sense either in terms of a naval battle. Unless perhaps the hold is fortified against cannonfire.

Oh... I guess I just don't remember that. I thought we went to the hold because it's where he'd been living during his time on the ship, with his bed and all his stuff.

My bad!

[Syegfryed]

I see the rough sequence of events as follows:

1.) Anduin, the "White Pawn," is on a diplomatic mission of some sort that has him aboard the Vanguard, in the southern seas of Azeroth.
2.) The Horde's Southern Fleet receives intelligence that an Alliance ship is nearby, with a possible high-value Alliance target on board.
3.) The Horde fleet gives chase, pushing into uncharted waters and perilously close to the Pandaren continent (only recently brought back into the world due to the Cataclysm).
4.) The Vanguard runs aground after being briefly lost in the mists, still under attack from the Horde fleet. Anduin is put into the hold of the ship to protect him, but the ship is taking on water and sinking, so Anduin escapes the hold and finds himself abroad in a new and unexplored land.

Garrosh and Nazgrim are likely alerted to the situation on Pandaria by magic (likely via Ga'trul, the Warlock in control of Garrosh'ar Point, the Horde's first base of operations in Pandaria), similar to how the Alliance high command was alerted of the attack via a Kaldorei scrying pool.

before the 1 and 2 the horde was fighting a naval battle against the alliance in tanaris and tol barad, in, Nazgrin words, in the middle they detect an alliance ship who flee and chase then, thats when they find out about pandaria

at least is how i understand

[Terongor]

Really? You must be grasping at straws...

Where was she? Was she even giving a damn about the war? No she was making a pact with Helya so she can secure immortality by enslaving the Val'kyr...nothing says trustworthy like abandoning your allies, leaving them to fight a war for the planet just to pursue your own selfish means.

But hey...you obviously are completely delusional if you think the Alliance is gonna help her harvest Azerite for WMDs that she will use to attack the Alliance

It doesn't matter at this point what she was doing, because alliance tried to kill because of only their suspicion, which in turn could have caused all out faction war. If Darkspear rebells would have tried to assasinate Varian during SoO alliance would cried out for war and killed the the rebels which would have being the same thing.

She cared for the war she brought her forces there help with aegis and talked like only she was going to do alone to Eyir thing which would have at that point helped the war effort tremendously. Genn even said that he isn't in habit of tracking prey he intends to kill it which proves already that alliances main aim in stormheim was to kill the leader of horde because of only suspicions, which on itself is seen as a war crime.

Also there has being many times even in human history that forces A and B weren't in a war and they were fighting a common enemy and force b used those times attack force d which force a had protected in the past but because of the huge common enemy force A didn't prevent it because it could only cause war between force A and B which wouldn't be A benefit at all.

[Malikath]

It doesn't matter at this point what she was doing-

yes it does, it doesn't stop meaning something because you say it doesn't.
and furthermore the alliance learn what shes up to prior to stormheim in aszuna, the horde do to.

and with the game itself alleging that it was sylvanas who influenced Vol'jin dying decision through her banshee powers with the emotes of varimathras in antorus, it's more then likely she ISN'T the legitimate warchief to begin with.
if so does that mean that she also let the demon's overun her position to have vol'jin fatally wounded?

furthermore, sylvanas doesn't have the right to call anyone out on breaking treaties after breaking the one thrall made back in vanilla, nor would anyone be wrong to assume the horde to be hostile under someone who's only ever been hostile.

[mickybrighteyes]

and furthermore the alliance learn what shes up to prior to stormheim in aszuna, the horde do to.

Except there's no real evidence of an outcome indicating that. Nevermind the nature of the quest as a side objective not linked to any achievement and no timeline for the Queen's Reprisal or any other vessels departures/wrecks/etc there's no real proof anything was known until well on into the campaign storyline AFTER the initial attacks.

and with the game itself alleging that it was sylvanas who influenced Vol'jin dying decision through her banshee powers with the emotes of varimathras in antorus,

I feel that's more speculation than stated

it's more then likely she ISN'T the legitimate warchief to begin with.

appointed by Vol'jin regardless of how you think he was influenced still makes his appointment legit

if so does that mean that she also let the demon's overun her position to have vol'jin fatally wounded?

I mean people already say she ordered the Wrathgate despite no lore backing that, but whatever.

[Mehrunes]

yes it does, it doesn't stop meaning something because you say it doesn't.
and furthermore the alliance learn what shes up to prior to stormheim in aszuna, the horde do to.

Can you finally provide evidence indicating that Azsuna takes place before Stormheim in lore? Or that, even if it does, that the Alliance version of the Azsuna questline regarding the Forsaken ship is canon rather than the Horde one? Have fun with both of these. Especially in light of Genn saying multiple times throughout Stormheim questline even after the attack that he has no idea what Sylvanas is after.

and with the game itself alleging that it was sylvanas who influenced Vol'jin dying decision through her banshee powers with the emotes of varimathras in antorus, it's more then likely she ISN'T the legitimate warchief to begin with.

Varimathras was talking out of his ass which was obvious to anyone who read his dungeon journal talking about how his punishment of being relegated as Sargeras' torture porn material after failing at Undercity. Because it kinda robbed him of keeping up with Azerothian political developments properly. Or, you know, read Before the Storm because we see from Sylvanas' own goddamn internal monologue that she was not only surprised by Vol'jin's decision but also outright annoyed by it. And even putting all of that aside, there's nothing in the Blood Oath of the Horde that would put the Warchief's legitimacy in jeopardy under those circumstances either way. The Warchief's legitimacy stems from the Horde swearing the Oath to them, nothing more. Vol'jin merely nominated her. Whatever motivated him to do so was his problem.

[Friendlyimmolation]

yes it does, it doesn't stop meaning something because you say it doesn't.
and furthermore the alliance learn what shes up to prior to stormheim in aszuna, the horde do to.

and with the game itself alleging that it was sylvanas who influenced Vol'jin dying decision through her banshee powers with the emotes of varimathras in antorus, it's more then likely she ISN'T the legitimate warchief to begin with.
if so does that mean that she also let the demon's overun her position to have vol'jin fatally wounded?

Uh did you ever read Before the storm?

also no, neither party knows what Sylvanas is doing in Stormheim, Azsuna being the first zone was cut, and Greymane and his forces make it clear they have zero idea what Sylvanas is doing there.

[mickybrighteyes]

also no, neither party knows what Sylvanas is doing in Stormheim, Azsuna being the first zone was cut, and Greymane and his forces make it clear they have zero idea what Sylvanas is doing there.

to be fair... Azsuna is still heavily implied to be the first zone regardless. Nevermind that Vaslharah is the only zone to not require you to run a dungeon at all or prof quests not all heading the same location or some zones having oddly lower ilvl rewards or leveling maps from devs....

Azsuna would likely have been the first zone anyways.

That all aside the order of events outside of Suramar is just going to be a muddled mess and the fate of the Queen's Reprisal is something that lacks a canon time stamp in relation to other events.

[Malikath]

Nevermind that Valsharah is the only zone to not require you to run a dungeon at all-

dark thicket after you fail to rescue malf in the village, you get the titan artifact earlier but the zone's story quest chain does end in a dungeon run like all the others.

[Terongor]

yes it does, it doesn't stop meaning something because you say it doesn't.
and furthermore the alliance learn what shes up to prior to stormheim in aszuna, the horde do to.

and with the game itself alleging that it was sylvanas who influenced Vol'jin dying decision through her banshee powers with the emotes of varimathras in antorus, it's more then likely she ISN'T the legitimate warchief to begin with.
if so does that mean that she also let the demon's overun her position to have vol'jin fatally wounded?

furthermore, sylvanas doesn't have the right to call anyone out on breaking treaties after breaking the one thrall made back in vanilla, nor would anyone be wrong to assume the horde to be hostile under someone who's only ever been hostile.

1) blizz states the area has no cannon order except suramar meaning that message doesn't matter as blizz stated that meaning while originally azsuna was planned to be first zone but they changed it and said there isn't any real order to the zones in legion.

Second What sylvanas did in stormheim wasn't an valid reason politically for alliance attacking her as it didn't have anything to do with the alliance it would be same as saying horde attacking alliance in ashran was a valid reason for horde to attack alliance as alliance were searching for an powerful ogre artifact and horde though alliance was going to use it against them.

3)Before the storms sylvanases inner monologue states differently..... as she was suprised to be the next warchief and really didn't care for it meaning she didn't do it but some force who wanted her in charge did most likely some kind of death god.

4) what treaty thrall made in vanilla? chronicles 3 heavily implied alliance slayed sylvanases diplomat and though he/she was a member of scourge and slaying an diplomat is an immideaty declaration of war and for example in mediaval times it was common to wipe out every single person of a country if they killed your diplomat like the mongols did and from political perspective its an mediaval fantasy.

[Aucald]

Closing this as a year-old product of Thread Necromancy.