Levelling should be fun, not be a "wish I had money for boost"- experience

[Thagrynor]

The title of the thread is that levelling should be fun, so in the third post I asked how to make it fun and got the replies above.
Most of these don't talk about how to make it fun, but how to make it take less time on alts (they're not bad ideas, don't get me wrong, they just say nothing about 'fun').
It seems to me that the issue is not that levelling isn't fun, but that it simply takes too long on alts, which is a different problem altogether. It's one I recognize though: I've been playing for more than 10 years and love the game, but also find myself struggling to level a Lightforged Draenei through the 1-60 zones, because 'been there, done that'. It's not bad, the story is nice, but it just takes too long to get to higher level and get access to new spells and abilities.

I think the way levelling could be made fun again through two options:
1. A full-world cataclysm-like revamp (Black Empire, hopefully). For me, the fun is always in new zones, new views, etc, so that would make it enjoyable to level through. However, this would be a temporary solution.
2. A level-squish. If they make for example "60" the max level again, then the levelling flow can be changed in such a way that you get something new every one or two levels. Currently there are sometimes gaps of 10 levels or more in which you learn no (useful) new spells or talents and then the game gets boring, because you just rinse and repeat the same rotation for too long. Also, levelling up feels pointless: who cares if you're level 41 or 47 if you're not learning anything new and the world around you feels just as strong? If you have less levels to get to max, each level you gain can give you something, which will assist in the feeling of actually getting stronger.

My response, and I should have clarified this better in my response, is that leveling used to be decently fun (as fun as something can be the 20th+ time you are doing it, I mean). It didn't feel overly burdensome because it was, at least, pretty fast. So yeah, the content might be old and tired for some, but it would go by quick enough that it wasn't terrible. Coupled with the level scaling of 7.3.5, the "finishing a zone before the story" issues could be overcome while leaving total leveling as a pace that most would at least be, for the most part, accepting of.

The problem is, leveling in a game like WoW will never be considered "fun" by everyone for the sheer fact that the game has been out so long that most people playing since the beginning of WoD have seen most of the leveling content. The best you can aim for is making it the least amount of boring for most while maximizing the fun for those that enjoy it. For those that love leveling, they can opt to not use heirlooms to extend their leveling time, which coupled with zone scaling allows them to complete most of the stories on one of the contents with a little extra from the other. For those that hate leveling, heirlooms plus the speed of pre-7.3.5 leveling would allow them to blaze past it fast enough that it didn't feel terrible, and coupled with the zone scaling, they were leaving zones less frequently so they both get the story but also waste less time traveling between zones to maximize their XP gains. And if they wanted the leveling process to "teach the class", then like I suggested, up the rewards for the additional time it took. Make individual mobs harder but require fewer to complete a level.

This would, imo, achieve the most optimal solution for the "leveling isn't fun" problem, as it would maximize the "fun" as much as possible for the greatest chunk of the population as possible. They could even offer a potion that acts as an anti-leveling potion, in that it offers reduced XP (say like the XP potion from MoP, except -30% XP gains for 2 hours or whatever) that they could then buy from a vendor. Those that absolutely love leveling so much could then shift themselves into the current situation of having super long leveling experiences that they enjoy without hamstringing those that are just tired of leveling.

As far as the boost goes, there are a lot of people leveling specifically for Allied Race transmog options. That one thing is the only reason they level. I have 20+ 110s. I have at least 1 of every class, 2 of most of them, at max level. Additionally, I have been playing since Vanilla. Leveling additional characters for the transmog is the only reason to level because I have seen EVERYTHING there is to see in the old world content. I have leveled to max on both factions and finished virtually every zone (there might be a quest or two somewhere that I haven't done). And boosting kills the ability to do that.

[xpose]

Back in wow vanilla the majority of the playerbase was leveling, doing dungeons and pvping while a much smaller % was actually doing end game raids.
I actually LOVED wow back then simply because it really felt like a massive world where you can enjoy it both solo and with/against other players.

Mobs were actually dangerous and deadly, especially if higher level than you, so i felt a thrill fighting them.
On my warlock i would try to do my best to DOT up 3 of those fat ogres in stranglethorn and then fear/seduce/CC as best i could while drain life spamming.

I did not think in terms of EXP/hour or gold/hour - i was just doing it for the thrill of overcoming a challenge and seeing how far i can push the performance and power of my character through skilled play.

Most players enjoy being challenged and having to fire up their skills and brains to overcome a difficult and deadly obstacle/opponent.
If some part of the game lacks those characteristics then it will not in any way be memorable and is probably in need of changes.

Yes, spending hours in Ferales grinding the same mobs over and over because you ran out of quests to do and they don't unlock until the next level was so thrilling

[Powerogue]

If you don't want to level more characters, don't level more characters.

Every expansion comes with a free level boost.

If you don't actually want to play those characters at all, but just want to see the legion class-specific storylines, let me introduce you to my pal Nobbel87:

[temple1337]

Leveling isn't fun because it takes a long time now. Leveling isn't fun because you go through long periods of not getting ANYTHING useful. I'm leveling a Nightborne Mage right now, and after I got Ice Block at 50 I didn't get another useful spell until 58. I didn't even get my major cooldown until level 40. I don't actually mind the slower kill time on mobs or really even the slower pace. What makes me HATE leveling is that you can go for a long time without getting anything at all. You should never level up and get NOTHING. In the current system, oftentimes you get absolutely nothing when you level for long stretches. Vanilla - WotLK were brilliant about this, since you at least got a talent point every level. Spell ranks also helped because you knew that even if you didn't get a NEW spell, you were going to be doing more damage with your next spell rank. It was also nice that you got new or upgraded spells every other level from 1-60, and then each expansion introduced a new spell for awhile. Now, once you get your mastery you're done. All you have to look forward to is level 100 and your final talent selection, then it's nothing until cap. This wasn't SO bad in Legion because of the artifact weapon and its actives and passives you had to look forward to. In BfA, you don't really have anything to look forward to with Azerite Gear until cap and Artifact abilities are gone. So now you level from 100-120 gaining absolutely NOTHING new. If they want to keep leveling like this then they HAVE to increase EXP gains, at least with a stacking buff for accounts with a capped character already, otherwise they need to do a level squish or give spells, abilities, and passives more frequently while leveling.

Leveling has been awful for awhile now, and the above reasons are why. It really has very little to do with speed or difficulty of leveling and more to do with it not feeling rewarding because the gap between when you get new stuff is so large.

[Eleccybubb]

Back in wow vanilla the majority of the playerbase was leveling, doing dungeons and pvping while a much smaller % was actually doing end game raids.
I actually LOVED wow back then simply because it really felt like a massive world where you can enjoy it both solo and with/against other players.

Mobs were actually dangerous and deadly, especially if higher level than you, so i felt a thrill fighting them.
On my warlock i would try to do my best to DOT up 3 of those fat ogres in stranglethorn and then fear/seduce/CC as best i could while drain life spamming.

I did not think in terms of EXP/hour or gold/hour - i was just doing it for the thrill of overcoming a challenge and seeing how far i can push the performance and power of my character through skilled play.

Most players enjoy being challenged and having to fire up their skills and brains to overcome a difficult and deadly obstacle/opponent.
If some part of the game lacks those characteristics then it will not in any way be memorable and is probably in need of changes.

Really? Grinding mobs so you can level up because you ran out of quests is "skilled and challenging" play?

Not it's not. That's the exact definition of tedium.

Also your "challenge" came from trying to kill multiple mobs at once that were a higher level than you. That's not a challenge. That's deliberately making it harder on yourself to level if there were easier alternatives to level.

And the issue was that a minority were raiding. That's why it's been made so more accessible over the years.

[Deleted]

This would actually be a great idea (as long as it has an on/off switch). If you want to steamroll leveling you can do the exact same zones over and over again. It's gonna be crap but fast. If you want to try out more zones, see more story, you can do that. Some people will probably 'feel forced' to repeat the same zones over and over again for max speed but at that point people are really trying their damndest to make it boring for themselves, especially if they can't even bother to do all zones on their max level character to unlock max speed everywhere.

I did have that in mind, yeah but somehow forgot to mention it in my post.

Also, for people who care about the story content, they should really let the TBC and WotLK zones go (I. E. Scale everything from Outland-Pandaria 60-90) - if you could do the 1-60 Cata zones directly to the 80-85 Cata zones the leveling experience would be so much more fluid. With the current XP gains, I go from 80-90 by completing Vashj'ir and a bit more than half of Twilight Highlands - without heirlooms or warmode. As soon as I get invested in the Cata story line (Lordaeron for Horde and northern Kalimdor for Horde and Alliance are particularly great) I get pulled out to go back in time to do several quests that are objectively worse in terms of gameplay before I am encouraged to skip most of the storyline I finally started caring about because the 80-90 experience is too damn fast (in terms of areas covered, not in terms of time played, please don't slow leveling down more). At the moment the 60-80 stretch is such a punishing experience, not only due to the problems Blizzard admitted with the speed but also the ancient quest mechanics and philosophies.

I thought they would do this with the world scaling announcement, but somehow they didn’t.
 

The title of the thread is that levelling should be fun, so in the third post I asked how to make it fun and got the replies above.
Most of these don't talk about how to make it fun, but how to make it take less time on alts (they're not bad ideas, don't get me wrong, they just say nothing about 'fun').

It seems to me that the issue is not that levelling isn't fun, but that it simply takes too long on alts, which is a different problem altogether. It's one I recognize though: I've been playing for more than 10 years and love the game, but also find myself struggling to level a Lightforged Draenei through the 1-60 zones, because 'been there, done that'. It's not bad, the story is nice, but it just takes too long to get to higher level and get access to new spells and abilities.

I think the way levelling could be made fun again through two options:
1. A full-world cataclysm-like revamp (Black Empire, hopefully). For me, the fun is always in new zones, new views, etc, so that would make it enjoyable to level through. However, this would be a temporary solution.
2. A level-squish. If they make for example "60" the max level again, then the levelling flow can be changed in such a way that you get something new every one or two levels. Currently there are sometimes gaps of 10 levels or more in which you learn no (useful) new spells or talents and then the game gets boring, because you just rinse and repeat the same rotation for too long. Also, levelling up feels pointless: who cares if you're level 41 or 47 if you're not learning anything new and the world around you feels just as strong? If you have less levels to get to max, each level you gain can give you something, which will assist in the feeling of actually getting stronger.

Yeah, well. I think the majority of quests are fine if you do them for the first time, maybe second. However hearing the same story for 12++ times isn’t fun, no matter how good it is. Nothing unexpected will happen, nothing new, so the story will eventually become boring. I have the same problem with the allied races.

The thing is leveling even from 20-110 (soon 120) is still too much of a turn off. Therefore I approve a level squish. Going from 1-60 just seems less intimidating. But then again I also understand that Blizzard is afraid of people’s reactions if they “lose” levels. I wonder if it would be better if the level cap isn’t toned down but instead the starting level is being raised up, to 60. New players who might wonder why 60 could be referenced to Classic servers.

But I doubt a world revamp is a good idea nor well received, especially if done for a majority of zones. Leveling usually takes up a small percentage of time compared to time spent at maxlevel. If they do spend more time on leveling less resources will be distributed to endgame. However if they focus endgame in a patch on older zones it can benefit both.

[Paperfox]

Levels should have had a squish when they squished stats. But I bet there is too much to change, as every piece of gear has a minimum level attached to it.

Just too many levels now.

[Soon-TM]

The reason for these problems is just that they invest limited resources in fixing it.

More like they don't know how to fix it, as per Ion's words.

[Polarthief]

Leveling is dumpsterfire. If they gave a shit, they'd triple or more the XP heirlooms give.

Even at 105% (Monk 50% + 55% Heirlooms), it's too fucking slow. People who like the slowness can opt out of heirlooms, and those of us who want to get it over with can use them.

More like they don't know how to fix it, as per Ion's words.

I guess that perfectly good heirloom system just doesn't exist.

[seleri]

Just make the heirloom +exp% bigger the more max level (non-boosted) characters you have. To prevent it from snowballing too quickly, the increase could only happen every so often, like every patch or every expansion. Alternatively, just sell the old exp potions on the cash shop, I wouldn't mind buying some.

[Soon-TM]

Leveling is dumpsterfire. If they gave a shit, they'd triple or more the XP heirlooms give.

Even at 105% (Monk 50% + 55% Heirlooms), it's too fucking slow. People who like the slowness can opt out of heirlooms, and those of us who want to get it over with can use them.



I guess that perfectly good heirloom system just doesn't exist.

Imo the problem are not heirlooms, except maybe for those who wanted to solo appropriate lvl dungeons. Things like getting key skills too late (for some classes), not getting any sense of progression due to mob scaling and stat squish, story being a huge convoluted mess and other "minor" annoyances (for example, having to go to that unskippable pos that is AU Draenor, and levelling there without flight) are far more pressing.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I find it find and pretty fast. Got from 58 to 72 in a few hours play time while also taking breaks yesterday.

[God Save The King]

I think new leveling is fun. There was a bit of a hiccup with the pre-patch, but my alt is currently having no issues, and she's 72. The only think I wish they'd do is open up all of the 1-100 content as doable. Having to do Outlands or WotLK for 60-80 is kind of lame. I'd prefer to do some EK/Kalimdor zones until then. Plus I love Pandaria, and I still level 80-90 before finishing all of it!

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Many people buy boosts so why should they change it anyway?For me personally speaking the Game shines at Maxlevel. Leveling itself is a dreadful experience. After Level 100 you dont even get new spells or anything exciting to look forward to only to remind you that you gotta grind another X Levels.I wanted to bypass this Questing by Dungeonspamming with my Restoshaman but boy these XP gains are lousy as f.

I’ve been getting 1/3 of a level from each dungeon that’s pretty good if you can do them in less them quick.

[sil3ntearth]

The traditional old school RPG player in me says "everybody needs to level!" but then I've been subscribed on and off since launch and have no desire to level another character. Minus a whole new class being created I think this priest I'm working on now may be the last I level from 1.

I don't want to be handed a new 110, but I don't want to level either. Maybe it's time we admitted we've just been playing for too long.

EDIT: I like the idea of doing a level squish, somehow as well. The idea of leveling to 60 or 70 isn't a bad thing, but when you start talking about 120 with only heirlooms to get you there then it starts to feel a bit overwhelming.

[temple1337]

Leveling is dumpsterfire. If they gave a shit, they'd triple or more the XP heirlooms give.

Even at 105% (Monk 50% + 55% Heirlooms), it's too fucking slow. People who like the slowness can opt out of heirlooms, and those of us who want to get it over with can use them.



I guess that perfectly good heirloom system just doesn't exist.

That's not really a fix, it's more of a band-aid. Before, when leveling was super fast it was still boring and awful because it was TOO brainless. You just shut your brain off for hours at a time running through everything. It was so brainless and easy that it made you wonder why Blizzard even keeps leveling in the game if it's going to be so stupidly easy. So, Blizzard pivoted in the opposite direction and made it take more time by slowing everything down. Currently, I think the pace of combat is perfect. You're not running through entire areas of mobs and murdering everything with one button anymore. But, the amount of EXP you get has dropped dramatically. This actually isn't such a bad thing until you realize how spread apart new spells, talents, skills, and abilities are. Before, you noticed it but it was a minor issue because you plowed through everything SO fast that you gor your new abilities relatively quickly, and you had artifacts to look forward to at 100. Now you are made all too aware of the gap between new abilities. This is the MAJOR issue with leveling. Leveling is FUN when you're constantly getting new stuff and fleshing out your class as you go. But because classes are so trimmed down now, there just aren't enough abilities to GIVE while leveling. Even if you increased EXP gained by 400% when wearing heirlooms, you would still run into the issue of leveling being a boring, uninteresting slog, because the rate at which you acquire things to change how you play is too slow. Hell, once you hit level 100 now you have NOTHING to look forward to until cap. That's now 20 levels of getting absolutely nothing new for your class. The only solution is to add more spells/passives to the classes as you level up and/or level squish so that the cap becomes 60 again, and allow people to level from 1-60 in everything but the current expansion, with the new expansion being a level 60 only area.

"But I don't want to go down in level!"
I do not think there is any other way around this. 120 levels is TOO much to grind through. Even with a massive buff to EXP gained, you still don't get enough stuff between 1-120 to make it tolerable. It becomes worse and worse the more alts you level up and/or the longer you've played the game. Most people playing are vets from various eras of WoW. The majority of us are just plain tired of doing the same quests over and over, and only want to level new alts to see how they play at end game. The boost is overpriced by design and even if I was willing to pay for it, I would miss out on heritage armor.

[Tesshin20]

I don't understand the "new" player base at all. Leveling in wow has never been faster. People even level 1 to 110 in a couple of days now.

In other mmos and in the original wow it took you months to level to cap. And now poeple are complaining it takes a week? I can not just relate to it at all.

The whole reason I think why a tiny minority does not like leveling is because it's too easy. You do not even have to use your brain any more.

I do not see leveling as an obstacle but enjoyment it self. Why cannot other appriciate the leveling is beyond me. I actually see it as current content even though it's 10 years old.

Seems like the new player base got brought up by having everything served to them all the time with no effort. Making them only appriciate instant gratification.

I see even poeple that claim you do not get enough experience for each dungeon. What? You get half a level just for completing it. It's almost absurd.

And also complaining you do not get abilities often enough. Even if it was 10 levels apart from each new ability you would get a new toy every 5 to 10 hours. That's more often than in classic when you got things every level.

I wonder what would actually make people entertainer these days.

[Deleted]

i almost have an ictus reading the poll questions but, yes , should be fun its part of the game.

Game is not all RAID or PVP at max level.

[temple1337]

The traditional old school RPG player in me says "everybody needs to level!" but then I've been subscribed on and off since launch and have no desire to level another character. Minus a whole new class being created I think this priest I'm working on now may be the last I level from 1.

I don't want to be handed a new 110, but I don't want to level either. Maybe it's time we admitted we've just been playing for too long.

No, it's just that there are too many levels to grind through. It's a daunting task going from 1-120, even if the EXP gains were massively increased. The whole system needs a rework and redesign to make it more palatable. I've been playing this game since Vanilla and the only reason I am bothering to level a new character is for heritage armor. I would never EVER level another character again if it weren't for heritage armor UNLESS Blizzard massively revamped leveling to make it fun and interesting again. As it stands now it's just something you have to do in order to get to where you want to be,

[sil3ntearth]

No, it's just that there are too many levels to grind through. It's a daunting task going from 1-120, even if the EXP gains were massively increased. The whole system needs a rework and redesign to make it more palatable. I've been playing this game since Vanilla and the only reason I am bothering to level a new character is for heritage armor. I would never EVER level another character again if it weren't for heritage armor UNLESS Blizzard massively revamped leveling to make it fun and interesting again. As it stands now it's just something you have to do in order to get to where you want to be,

Yeah, that's why I edited my post. People here saying they have heard of people leveling to 110 in a couple days, but I don't see how if you're not a hardcore player with every possible xp boost. If you don't have that, it takes a while. Hell, playing casually my wife and I have gone from 83-88 in like 6 hours. That's just with heirloom gear and I feel like a level an hour is average. That means with heirloom gear from level 1 you MAY be able to get to 110 in about 90 hours or so if you were dedicated. That takes into consideration that at low levels you'll be leveling faster than once an hour. That also considers JUST using heirloom, nothing else. So, if you're a casual player, and you're only playing 3 hours a day, it would take a month to level to 110. If you're new, even longer, because you still have to learn all the zones and the game in general and you don't have the 45% XP boost.