«You call for peace when it suits you»

[grexly75]

Good and Bad is completely relative. There is no single moral authority in the game.

Very true, but it is interesting with how much this thread has riled folks on both sides..

[Steampunkette]

She doesn't really use Storhmeim as a reason to go to war, but as a reason for why peace wouldn't last. Ignoring that the attempted coup wasn't really Anduin's doing, she could've easily said that Lordaeron was hers to rule and have that established in a treaty. Anduin doesn't have expansionist desires, so having a treaty formalize what is currently the status quo doesn't seem so bad at least until they recover and they return to their old situation in which they can't really start a total war as they now.

I mean... kinda?

Anduin acknowledges in his letter in Before the Storm that the Horde and Alliance aren't at peace. He calls for a Cease-fire for a single day. Meaning the War is already happening, and he's willing to stop attacking for 1 day.

You could argue that it's just "Hostilities" but with attempted regicide and a sneak attack during a Truce to fight a larger enemy? That's a bit more than Hostilities.

[Isilarya]

burning of the tree was an unjustified warcrime, but lets not pretend the alliance farts roses, if anduin wanted real peace he would have given greymane a harsher punishment then "bad dog very bag dog!"

Genn is technically a king, of a shattered kingdom obviously but still a king. I do not view him as some sort of passive lapdog that will just roll over because someone less than a quarter his age told him to. He has, and will continue to likely, make decisions that go counter to what Anduin wants because of his own beliefs.

[ChairmanKaga]

Ive always been horde, I will continue to always be horde. Sylvanas is objectively by every definition of the word evil. Shes not securing a place for the horde, shes securing a place for the forsaken. I mean in a few page spread during her parade through Orgrimmar she actively states her disdain for basically every other race justifying their existences by only how she can use them.

Yet again every group has agendas, from their perspective they are "good".

[J012D4N]

All major conflicts from WoW's beginning have been started by the Horde.

Define "major conflict". We're talking just Horde vs Alliance, or external ?
Pretty sure I can give you a handful of examples of ones that aren't the Hordes "fault". There's actually a few that are, by origin, the Alliance's.

[ChairmanKaga]

Very true, but it is interesting with how much this thread has riled folks on both sides..

The closest they had to the concept of some purely good entity/faction for so long was the wind chimes and Illidan blew that up.

[Isilarya]

Yet again every group has agendas, from their perspective they are "good".

Ok so using this logic the Orcs, Tauren, Trolls, Nightborne, Highmountain, Goblins and Sindorei should be morally allowed to just slaughter the forsaken straight out of the horde and existence because they are perceived as evil and this would be justifiable to you? I mean I would like it but it isnt a good act even if it is a beneficial one.

[Canpinter]

Genn is technically a king, of a shattered kingdom obviously but still a king. I do not view him as some sort of passive lapdog that will just roll over because someone less than a quarter his age told him to. He has, and will continue to likely, make decisions that go counter to what Anduin wants because of his own beliefs.

Then he has no business being a commander of non worgen alliance forces, when hes in command of the skyfire or leading an alliance force he is acting as an alliance officer and any action he takes is a action performed by the alliance. unless hes declared an outlaw or in some way disavowed and actually punished his actions are part of his factions.

[grexly75]

The closest they had to the concept of some purely good entity/faction for so long was the wind chimes and Illidan blew that up.

Yeah it was good but then they made turned them into religious zealots, which was a bit on the nose for sure..

[pyro989898]

At this point Sylvanas fan can consist of only two types:-
1.Forsakan/Undead Player in Horde because Sylvanas will only help undead , "for the horde" by her is just a lie
2.Player who like too much female animated character, nothing good(in head) can be said about these players

[Aucald]

Then he has no business being a commander of non worgen alliance forces, when hes in command of the skyfire or leading an alliance force he is acting as an alliance officer and any action he takes is a action performed by the alliance. unless hes declared an outlaw or in some way disavowed and actually punished his actions are part of his factions.

That's part and parcel of the problem as to why the Horde is on a war footing in BfA - Genn was able to make an attempt on the life of the Horde Warchief in an action that didn't have Alliance sanction, but the High King of the Alliance neither punished nor formally censured Genn for his actions in Stormheim. This, to a large degree, is how Sylvanas is able to sell her war to Saurfang - crouched in the terms that peace with the Alliance was a brief and tenuous "dream" that would soon shatter in the faces of the Horde leadership. Better to conclude such a conflict in the favor of the Horde well and before the Alliance could encircle them given time to build back up after the Legion campaign.

[Isilarya]

Then he has no business being a commander of non worgen alliance forces, when hes in command of the skyfire or leading an alliance force he is acting as an alliance officer and any action he takes is a action performed by the alliance. unless hes declared an outlaw or in some way disavowed and actually punished his actions are part of his factions.

Was he actually in charge of the Skyfire? I thought it was Jes' boat/soldiers. Which still wouldnt surprise me because Jes is a very vocal warmonger.

[Aucald]

Was he actually in charge of the Skyfire? I thought it was Jes' boat/soldiers. Which still wouldnt surprise me because Jes is a very vocal warmonger.

He was the senior presence aboard the vessel - the highest officer of the Alliance, you could say. The Skyfire was nominally under the direct command of Sky Admiral Rogers, but she was very much subordinate to Genn's command (though she also agreed with Genn's stance i.e. the Forsaken).

[kendro1200]

those are nice examples but it really doesn't matter any more. in this world of moral relativity blizzard is trying to construct, literally all of the alliances's worst deeds are basically nothing compared to what the horde does constantly. the alliance is the only working alternative to the horde, and because the horde has been made pure evil, the alliance will always look purely good, no matter how many times you say taurajo.

Also because Taurajo was a mistake of kindness. Alliance Commander in charge tried to be kind and not take civilian prisoners. Note the Quilboar that the Horde had been committing acts of genocide against since Orgrimmar and Thunderbluff had been founded, took the opportunity to kill Tauren stragglers who the Alliance created a weak point in their military lines on purpose to allow the Tauren civilians to flee. Camp Taurajo was also attacked after Garrosh started the all out war with the Night Elves, as Theramore attempted to aid the Night Elves.

Camp Taurajo is literally the only "bad" thing the Alliance has done in its history.

The attack in Legion by Greymane was entirely justifiable. Genn attacked Sylvanas' ship. He didn't perform any aggression towards any other Horde forces, specifically Sylvanas' ship. There is serious plausible deniability on his part for the state of the Horde at that point, because as we learned in Before the Storm, the only message the Horde sent to the Alliance about what happened on the Broken Shore was a secret letter sent by Baine that said, "We were ambushed we had to retreat, we didn't mean to abandon you and I'm sorry your dad died because of it." Sylvanas didn't even attempt to open any lines of communication, she just ignored every comment that the other Horde Leaders made about how the Alliance would be upset and might retaliate over the apparent betrayal. Sylvanas created the Stormheim conflict by purposefully keeping silent and not trying to foster cooperation between anyone. She isn't an idiot, she didn't just forget. She wanted and wants hostility towards the Alliance because she wants fresh corpses. She wants free cannon fodder to keep her Forsaken and herself sake, she gets that from fresh dead.

The only time the Horde wasn't actively seeking genocide against anyone that wasn't giving them open tribute was when Thrall and Vol'jin were in charge of it (even then that is still up for debate since during that time they were actively trying to exterminate every Centaur and Quilboar in their territory). At every other point in history, an entity that called itself "The Horde" would go on genocidal rampages until it was defeated and dismantled.

[Canpinter]

Was he actually in charge of the Skyfire? I thought it was Jes' boat/soldiers. Which still wouldnt surprise me because Jes is a very vocal warmonger.

Rogers was the captain of the ship but Greymane was her commanding officer so unless she attacked without his approval hes the one who ordered it.

[Harbour]

if anduin wanted real peace he would have given greymane a harsher punishment then "bad dog very bag dog!"

Dude dont pretend Genn's punishment or its lack of has something to peace. Quoted statement sound like its coming from the guy who was triggered by the fact that Genn cucked Sylvanas for free. I understand the feelings, but lets not twist the facts.

[Isilarya]

He was the senior presence aboard the vessel - the highest officer of the Alliance, you could say. The Skyfire was nominally under the direct command of Sky Admiral Rogers, but she was very much subordinate to Genn's command (though she also agreed with Genn's stance i.e. the Forsaken).

Right Rogers, i dont know why i mix her with Jes tereth. I dont play alliance enough to keep them straight. I havent actually seen the alliances side of that zone so I was just operating under the assumption that Genn was kinda just there because he heard Sylvanas was there so he was like IM GOING.

[kail]

Blizz did a decent job in making sure noone's hands are clean.

[Canpinter]

Dude dont pretend Genn's punishment or its lack of has something to peace. Quoted statement sound like its coming from the guy who was triggered by the fact that Genn cucked Sylvanas for free. I understand the feelings, but lets not twist the facts.

you really think a high ranking general can attempt to kill the head of state of a rival superpower and that general not being punished in any meaningful way will not have an impact on the potential for peace between the two nations?

[Isilarya]

you really think a high ranking general can attempt to kill the head of state of a rival superpower and that general not being punished in any meaningful way will not have an impact on the potential for peace between the two nations?

Real global politics are touchy. Generals get fired for getting too drunk in public if its perceived it will bring discredit to the military.

Azeroth has Horde, Alliance and a bunch of small groups noone cares about. Alliance generally unilaterally hates the Horde so why would the general populace want Genn shamed for what he did, its not like they care what the Horde thinks. There isnt some global relations to manage.

The only peace Anduin ever wants is to stop killing each other over dumb shit. Geographically nothing would change, Sindorei wouldnt suddenly start living in Stormwind if he got his peace we just wouldnt fight each other over petty shit.