"Genocide" - You keep using that word...

[DeicideUH]

Since when is Teldrassil a country? Are Val'sharah, Feralas or Hyjal independent from Darnassus then?

Oh, it was just half a country! It's not genocide, I guess!
Maybe if someone invades the USA and murders its way over the whole of the East Coast, it won't be genocide because Alaska and Hawai will be safe.

[Mehrunes]

It's technically not genocide, the act of killing off the nightelves would have to be the reason for the attack to actually be genocide. They are victims of location, if it were any other race in any other battlement, they would have been similarly targeted.
Genocide could be considered a side effect of the attack, although a chunk of night elf forces were away, so it's still not really a genocide.
It's a unique situation, calling it a genocide isn't technically very wrong, but that's not the purpose of the action against Teldrassil.

Well, it technically is very wrong (law is the realm of technicalities), because genocide cannot be a side effect. It has to be the primary drive. Sylvanas' primary drive was to burn the tree, which in turn was done to break Alliance's spirit. Or, to be more precise, like she told Saurfang, a replacement for splitting the Alliance apart and destroying their hope, because Saurfang fucked that part of the plan by not killing Malfurion. Night Elves burning with the tree would fall under either dolus indirectus or dolus eventualis in this case. And genocide requires dolus directus.

Well, the people who wrote it said it was genocide. But hey, we can surely believe a Trumpster edgelord over them.

A character said it's genocide. Character's statements aren't facts.

Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part. The hybrid word "genocide" is a combination of the Greek word génos ("race, people") and the Latin suffix -cide ("act of killing"). The United Nations Genocide Convention, which was established in 1948, defines genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group".

http://www.un.org/en/genocideprevent...20Genocide.pdf


Sylvanas comitted genocide.

Sylvanas' action meets zero out of three of those criteria. Almost all of it is explained in the article you yourself linked. It'd be swell if you could read your own sources.

[metzger84]

A character said it's genocide. Character's statements aren't facts.

No character said that. Read the actual book.

[Zaanm4n]

Genocide - The deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, social, or political group.

As a case study in liberal leftist doublethink, it is interesting to note just how many people refer to the burning of Teldrassil as an act of "genocide." (In an era where Donald Trump is unironically called a "literal Nazi," I am somehow not surprised...)

Teldrassil was certainly an attack, and a very deadly one. The victims were (almost?) exclusively Night Elves, which are indeed all part of the same fictional "race.*" However, take a look at the underlined words in the definition of "genocide." Both deliberate and systematic would mean a racially-based extermination project conceived and executed for the sake of race alone. While Sylvy probably doesn't like Nelves, this was an act of war against the Alliance - the killing of the enemy - and was in no way systematically "racist."

It's not just a vocabulary problem, either. I think it reflects a modern western tendency to decry any major act of violence against any group as "genocide," a label tacitly undergirded by the notion that racists and "literally-Hitler's" are the only group left who can be slaughtered with moral justification. Sylvanas isn't "evil." Extreme, probably. Selfish, most certainly. But hey... this is WAR...

*One has to wonder what the definition of a race might be, both in RL and in WoW - especially since, in the latter, the evolutionary lineage of elven races is so explicitly given.

I think the issue here is that u have taken the word to its literal definition with emphasis on the "Race" part, however its more figuratively used here, referring to the massacre of the innocents / victims of war.

[Mehrunes]

The thing is Sylvanas target was the Tree, always. Before she wanted to control the tree to have leverage, and after she decided to destroy the tree, due to it being a symbol that kept hope alive. She never specifically had the objective of killing NElves, even less to eradicate them as a species. She even welcomed the escape of civilians from the tree. The deaths were only collateral to her objective. So there wasn't genocidal intention and therefore, strictly speaking, there wan't a genocide. Only a mass killing.

However the understanding of genocide evolved and most times is used to refer to a very large mass killing. In this sense it is a genocide.

Yeah, pretty much this. The burning of Teldrassil doesn't meet legal definition of genocide (well, maybe some national level ones, who knows). It only meets what the social perception (or to be more blunt, ignorance) turned it into.

Accidental genocide

Genocide cannot be accidental.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide
"Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part. The hybrid word "genocide" is a combination of the Greek word génos ("race, people") and the Latin suffix -cide ("act of killing").[1] The United Nations Genocide Convention, which was established in 1948, defines genocide as "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group".[2][3]"

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genocide

"Legal Definition of genocide
: acts committed with intent to partially or wholly destroy a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group; also : the crime of committing such an act"

The intent was to destroy the Night Elves. This was done by killing literally everyone they could kill. Wether they did it because they hate Night Elves is irrelevant, becaues the act of killing them in this way and scale was genocide.
This is also something she wants to do towards the Alliance as a whole, aka she wants to commit genocide against the races of the Alliance for their cultural, racial and ethical backgrounds. Genocide.


You are ignoring all other words and solely focusing on the racial aspect. Which is still part of the reason. I don't think it was ever stated that it was racist, only that it's a genocide.

This is what Sylvanas said to Saurfang when he demanded to know why:
"This was your battle. Your strategy. And your failure. Darnassus was never the prize. It was a wedge that would split the Alliance apart. It was the weapon that would destroy hope. And you, my master strategist, gave that up to spare an enemy you defeated. I have taken it back.

When they come for us, they will do so in pain, not in glory."

Which part of that contained the intent to destroy the Night Elves as a people due to their race, ethnicity, nationality or religion?

Because of their culture, ethnicity, faith and nationality they're in the Alliance. They're also "the living", something she hates and has professed to wish to kill whenever she can.
It's genocide.
What Arthas did was genocide.
What the orcs did against the Draenei was genocide.
What the Burning Legion did to us was genocide.

Why they are in the Alliance is irrelevant to the point they were targeted because they are in the Alliance, not because of their religion, ethnicity, nationality or race. Gnomes share neither of these with the Night Elves, yet they are still target of Sylvanas' war. Because they are Alliance.

On a side note, when did the Legion commit a genocide against us? They were too incompetent throughout the expansion to do anything of the sort.

[Kaibhan]

OP has issues.

It's most definitely genocide. The horde deliberately killed a large group of people. Granted it was tactical and the intent was more to drive from azurite deposits and to never come back but it still involved their deliberate slaughter to drive them away. Similar to the genocides committed in Africa in the last century or so. Usually they were a shift in political power and the genocides were committed primarily to exert control and dominance in a region.

[metzger84]

OP has issues.

It's most definitely genocide. The horde deliberately killed a large group of people. Granted it was tactical and the intent was more to drive from azurite deposits and to never come back but it still involved their deliberate slaughter to drive them away. Similar to the genocides committed in Africa in the last century or so. Usually they were a shift in political power and the genocides were committed primarily to exert control and dominance in a region.

It's the Sylvanas brigade. Resistance is futile.

[saintminya]

If a massacre of this scale happened in our world, where say; a massive amount of race/ethnical group was exterminated, I don't think that the intention of the perpetrator can be labelled as anything other than racist. It might be for strategic purposes, however, it still targeted a combined group, with the intention to massacre innocent civilians. Especially because sylv uses degrogatory terms when describing Night Elfs.

If a massacre of less than one thousand of two groups of people happened in the real world, I highly doubt it would ever be labeled a genocide.

[metzger84]

If a massacre of less than one thousand of two groups of people happened in the real world, I highly doubt it would ever be labeled a genocide.

Except if there was this number of people in total in that group.

[saintminya]

Except if there was this number of people in total in that group.

A fair point. Fortunately we know there are a good deal more Night Elves and Worgen.

[Mehrunes]

They had a hell of a lot more in common with the Alliance than the Horde, that's for sure. So yes, it was definetly because of their culture, their nation, ethnicity and beliefs. One of those beliefs being the sanctity of nature, which the Alliance respected a lot more than the Horde.
Their beliefs, nation, race and faith was attacked. The Horde didn't simply chop down some tree's, they killed the forests and everything in it. They violated sacred land and killed venerated creatures.

That's fascinating and all, but that still has nothing to do with why they were attacked, let alone why Teldrassil in particular was torched. As such it has nothing to do with genocide.

The attack on Teldrassil had the intent of destroying their people, destroying their culture and shattering their hope. That's fucking genocide.

You added two of these by yourself.

The word genocide has been used in real life in cases where a tyrant murdered 500~people. Yes, burning of Teldrassil fits the definition of genocide. It fits it far better than many real life genocides that were officially labeled as such by international organizations. Then again, can't expect someone who defends Trump in his first sentence to understand that.

The sheer amount of people that died is among the bottom of the list when determining whether something is a genocide or not.

What Sylvanas did was a war crime, but it was far from Genocide. The only argument for it being genocide would be if you could prove Sylvanas decided on burning the tree as part of a future campaign to wipe out all night elves which she may well desire, but until that motivation is proven the burning of Teldrassil was no more genocide then was the carpet bombings of Germany during WWII.

This is a good example actually. While bombings of Germany had also other goals in mind, like destroying the war-related industrial centers, it was also done to break the spirit of the Germans. Just like torching of Teldrassil was to break the spirit of the Alliance (though I guess it also achieved one of the original goals of the campaign, i.e. stopping shipments from Darnassus to EK).

That's not to say it wasn't ruthless or, by modern standards at least, evil. But neither were genocides.

Related, are there any numbers anywhere that discuss how many innocents died, what total percent of world pop of Nelfs fell, that kinda thing?

Nothing conclusive. And there's dissonance on the topic between various sources on top of that.

[Grythletubs]

It was stated twice in the novella that it was genocide.

Once by Anduin and once by Astari (who's literally IN Darnasus as a witness trying to save as many night elves as she can, but most of them die).

I don't get why people are arguing this, and why does it matter anyways? Does it make you feel better that horde didn't completely annihilate 100% of the night elf population?

Stop trying to sugarcoat atrocities simply because you're a mindless fan of your faction.

[Jonnusthegreat]

It's almost like the alliance is a collection of races. And this particular race was targeted. Dang bro.

[Gerron]

A fair point. Fortunately we know there are a good deal more Night Elves and Worgen.

No, the majority of Night Elves and Worgen lived in Teldrassil. In lore it's much more massive than what we have in game. The majoirty of the Night Elf civilization and what was left of the Worgen lived there.

[saintminya]

It's almost like the alliance is a collection of races. And this particular race was targeted. Dang bro.

If the race of Night Elves was the target, and not the tree, then wouldn't Sylvanas and the Horde have continued past that event? Plenty more NE all over Kalimdor.

[Mehrunes]

Oh, it was just half a country! It's not genocide, I guess!
Maybe if someone invades the USA and murders its way over the whole of the East Coast, it won't be genocide because Alaska and Hawai will be safe.

Backtracking and snark aren't exactly good arguments when you're called out on peddling falsehoods. Not enough of a high-ground for you in that case. And you have no way of proving if it was even half the country. Some of the sources indicate Night Elven population is fine as a whole. For it to be genocide the amount of Night Elves killed would need to be large enough to threaten the well-being of those that survived. And even then that'd fit only one out of three elements of genocide. Sylvanas' dolus directus would still need to be specifically to wipe the Night Elves out, and that's contradicted by A Good War. On top of that, they'd need to be targeted because of their nationality, ethnicity, religion or race. Meanwhile they were targeted because they were Alliance.

No character said that. Read the actual book.

It's presented as Anduin's thoughts on the matter. First it's said that Sylvanas has committed genocide. Then it's followed by Anduin's thought that he thought X and Y about Sylvanas, but he didn't expect her to do "this". Context clearly indicates that "this" is the aforementioned genocide, which makes the claim that Sylvanas committed genocide a part of his thoughts.

[Machismo]

Well, it technically is very wrong (law is the realm of technicalities), because genocide cannot be a side effect. It has to be the primary drive. Sylvanas' primary drive was to burn the tree, which in turn was done to break Alliance's spirit. Or, to be more precise, like she told Saurfang, a replacement for splitting the Alliance apart and destroying their hope, because Saurfang fucked that part of the plan by not killing Malfurion. Night Elves burning with the tree would fall under either dolus indirectus or dolus eventualis in this case. And genocide requires dolus directus.




A character said it's genocide. Character's statements aren't facts.




Sylvanas' action meets zero out of three of those criteria. Almost all of it is explained in the article you yourself linked. It'd be swell if you could read your own sources.

And it easily fits the definition of the word.

[LMuhlen]

I don't get why people are arguing this, and why does it matter anyways? Does it make you feel better that horde didn't completely annihilate 100% of the night elf population?

Stop trying to sugarcoat atrocities simply because you're a mindless fan of your faction.

Sylvanas, with her very low regard for life, has done many atrocities and evil things. That should be enough without adding things that she didn't do. If someone starts accusing her of gnome slavery or human trafficking, we should say it is incorrect, since despite doing several awful things, those are not included.

I return the question, then. Why do people have to add genocide to her already extensive list? It makes it sound like the rest isn't already bad enough. If you need to add false concepts, then what she did do must not be bad enough for you, so YOU (generic you) don't disapprove of her enough for what she really did.

[Grythletubs]

"Tears poured down Astarii’s face, both from the smoke and her heart.

How could this be happening? How could the Horde have gotten so far, and how—in Elune’s name, why?—had the Horde chosen to burn the World Tree? This was more than war. More than cruelty. This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme that Astarii could not understand it."

"The World Tree was more than a city. It was an entire land, home to countless innocents. How many night elves were elsewhere in Azeroth? Far too few. Now, they were all who remained of their people.

Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide.".

There we go folks.

- - - Updated - - -

Sylvanas, with her very low regard for life, has done many atrocities and evil things. That should be enough without adding things that she didn't do. If someone starts accusing her of gnome slavery or human trafficking, we should say it is incorrect, since despite doing several awful things, those are not included.

I return the question, then. Why do people have to add genocide to her already extensive list? It makes it sound like the rest isn't already bad enough. If you need to add false concepts, then what she did do must not be bad enough for you, so YOU (generic you) don't disapprove of her enough for what she really did.

"Tears poured down Astarii’s face, both from the smoke and her heart.

How could this be happening? How could the Horde have gotten so far, and how—in Elune’s name, why?—had the Horde chosen to burn the World Tree? This was more than war. More than cruelty. This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme that Astarii could not understand it."

"The World Tree was more than a city. It was an entire land, home to countless innocents. How many night elves were elsewhere in Azeroth? Far too few. Now, they were all who remained of their people.

Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide.".

Straight from the novella, there's not much else to say.

[LMuhlen]

"Tears poured down Astarii’s face, both from the smoke and her heart.

How could this be happening? How could the Horde have gotten so far, and how—in Elune’s name, why?—had the Horde chosen to burn the World Tree? This was more than war. More than cruelty. This was madness and genocide and hatred so extreme that Astarii could not understand it."

"The World Tree was more than a city. It was an entire land, home to countless innocents. How many night elves were elsewhere in Azeroth? Far too few. Now, they were all who remained of their people.

Sylvanas Windrunner had committed genocide.".

There we go folks.

Either the author doesn't care for the technicalities of the definition, or she is implying that from the point of view of that character, who knows nothing of Sylvanas' intentions, it is deduced to be a genocide.