Theory: Jaina Is An Antagonist As Well

[Aucald]

Yeah but I got weird vibes with putting her down, I mean he is ok with the burning of animals in teldrasil but now defends the horde not matter who started the war?

Hope Jaina do something nasty to the horde like killing every horde citizen in the crossroad(should be a small city by now) or else a lot of horde characters are very OoC

He says it himself - "his loyalty is to the Horde" and he doesn't care who started the war or why, he only knows that the entire Horde is threatened by it and so he has to fight. By his reckoning if Jaina is the greatest threat then he will try to end her by whatever means.

[Skulltaker]

Watch the new cinematic - she's practically laughing in the Alliance leaderships face as they constantly try, and fail, to intimidate her every step of the way. Then when they realise they have been well and truly outwitted and escape with their lives, there they are seething and raging on Jaina's ghost ship while Sylvanas simply leaves smiling. So 1) As recent as you can get, and 2) A seriously damn good reason to do so

Losing her prize and her capital, yeah. She can pretend as much as she wants. So far BfA has been nothing but defeats for her.

[Deleted]

Losing her prize and her capital, yeah. She can pretend as much as she wants. So far BfA has been nothing but defeats for her.

Teldrassil - 1-0
Undercity - 2- 0: Despite being the defending faction that was vastly outnumbered, and had apparent centuries of tactical war experience on their side, managed to outwit every one of them and lure them all into a trap they never saw coming, thus meaning Alliance never got the city they gave so much for. Dress up however you like, this was an abject defeat and an embarrassment for them. Any other interpretation than that is either just salty tears or flat out denial. But by all means, employ whichever of these make it easy for you

[Zandalariprelate]

He says it himself - "his loyalty is to the Horde" and he doesn't care who started the war or why, he only knows that the entire Horde is threatened by it and so he has to fight. By his reckoning if Jaina is the greatest threat then he will try to end her by whatever means.

Yeah I get that, but how can he see Jaina as the major threat to the horde if she hasnt done anything important, unless his role would be the "champion hunter/killer" aka blizzard using rexxar to injure and send x op character to "tend the wounds" so they wouldnt have to worry about incosistence from while x didnt do x here or even went there.

[Aucald]

Yeah I get that, but how can he see Jaina as the major threat to the horde if she hasnt done anything important, unless his role would be the "champion hunter/killer" aka blizzard using rexxar to injure and send x op character to "tend the wounds" so they wouldnt have to worry about incosistence from while x didnt do x here or even went there.

That's what I meant previously. Obviously Jaina has been upping her Horde body-count in the various Warfronts and in War Effort areas - so much so that she's garnered the attention of a Hero of the Horde.

[Deleted]

I don't think she's an antagonist yet, though maybe she'll be one at least for a time. We've already seen what the spirits are going to put her through and we don't know exactly what will become of her yet, but we do know they'll continue to pick on her feelings of guilt, only worse than before. And we also know, those spirits are in no way benevolent.

I hope in the end we'll be able to snap her out of it and she gets to save all the vengeful souls from the Sea, including her father. But I'm not so sure about that, because I don't think it was a coincidence that I gave his soul to Salanar in Legion.^^

[Skulltaker]

Teldrassil - 1-0
Undercity - 2- 0: Despite being the defending faction that was vastly outnumbered, and had apparent centuries of tactical war experience on their side, managed to outwit every one of them and lure them all into a trap they never saw coming, thus meaning Alliance never got the city they gave so much for. Dress up however you like, this was an abject defeat and an embarrassment for them. Any other interpretation than that is either just salty tears or flat out denial. But by all means, employ whichever of these make it easy for you

Teldrassil, lost, Undercity, lost again. She neither gained a tactical advantage by capturing Teldrassil, nor did she manage to keep her capital. She failed her objective twice, and managed to get her best general captured. BfA started with a loss for the Horde.

[Zandalariprelate]

That's what I meant previously. Obviously Jaina has been upping her Horde body-count in the various Warfronts and in War Effort areas - so much so that she's garnered the attention of a Hero of the Horde.

But in what warfronts is jaina fighting? The arathi and maybe the barren ones would be the most hardcore in terms of body counts but so far I though she was in Kul tiras and that personal journey of her

[ro9ue]

Alternate Title: The Warbringers shorts are literally about those who brought this war to us.

We know Azshara is a villain, and after the last few events, it definitely seems that Sylvanas is a major antagonist of this plot for both factions. That just leaves Jaina.

This idea came to me when I read about people interpreting Jaina's reaction in the throne room to Anduin talking about Teldrassil as one of guilt. At first, I didn't think much of it. The cutscenes have some brilliantly subtle facial animation nowadays, but sometimes that also means that characters just aren't static if they're in the shot, nothing more. However, I went through the rest of the cutscene and noticed something. Despite Jaina having the most connection to the Arthas cinematic from Warcraft III that it references, Jaina only gets focus, and a very brief focus at that, at the very end when she teleports everyone out. This is also the only time that she has any dialogue in any of the Lordaeron cutscenes. Also, when the four Alliance characters reach the center of the throne room, she is standing out of formation and further behind them. None of this has any innate meaning, but it kinda gives me the feeling that they want her to go under the radar right now while still appearing in key moments, but it would also fit if she really did have some guilt about Teldrassil.

Another thing that stood out to me was how Sylvanas broke the Alliance's siege fairly easily and fairly early on. Her final trap and big speech to Anduin never would have mattered if Jaina had not arrived. Of course, Sylvanas could have always hoped the Alliance wouldn't have an answer to that push, but smart enough to have a back-up plan anyway, but I asked myself what it would mean if Sylvanas had planned for Jaina's arrival, because they had planned it together.

Why would Jaina work with Sylvanas?

I'll admit, this relies on another theory, but one I feel isn't really a leap at this point, and that's about Sylvanas having ulterior motives all along, and isn't really working for the Horde. Aside from her actions themselves and disagreeing with Saurfang and Baine, evidence for this includes the Three Sisters comic, where the Void is convinced that Sylvanas is working for "the true enemy", Varimathras' and Gul'dan's dialogue in Legion, where they mock the Horde about Sylvanas being just as much of a threat to the Horde, and the Chronicle, which establishes that the Void relies heavily on the Alliance and Horde staying at war with each other.

Now, the first and last of those contradict (since one presumes that Sylvanas is working for the Void and the other presumes that she's their enemy too), but my point is less about who Sylvanas is actually working for, and what that force wants. I think it's fairly safe to assume at this point that whoever it is wants the Alliance and Horde to be at war.

So back to the question, why would Jaina work with Sylvanas?

Because Sylvanas proposed a situation in which Jaina could get her revenge against the Horde without the Alliance seeing her as a bad guy for it. I doubt Sylvanas told her the whole plan or why she's doing it, in fact, she may have even gave the same sort of justifications that she has to the Horde. In Jaina's current mindset, Sylvanas saying that the two factions can never truly have peace unless one destroys the other is something Jaina could easily latch onto.

Thus, Sylvanas and Jaina both get what they want. Sylvanas gets the Alliance and Horde to war with each other, and Jaina gets to fight the Horde and be hailed as a hero (or so she thinks).

As a follow-up theory to this, I think both of them (indirectly or otherwise) could be working for Azshara, tying all three Warbringers together.

Secondary Theory
SPOILER WARNING for Battle for Azeroth questing.

We know that Azshara has her tentacles in both Zandalar and Kul Tiras. This right away sets her up as a much bigger villain (regardless of what may or may not happen to her in an early raid) than what you'd expect for someone who's had essentially no presence in the marketing outside of the Warbringers. During the questing, the Horde and Alliance overthrow her presence in their respective lands, but if Sylvanas and Jaina (the latter of which specifically becomes the new leader) have ulterior motives, this actually may have been part of the plan all along.

Picture this, Azshara is pulling a Kansas City Shuffle on the Alliance and Horde. She creates moles in strategic areas that she knows the Alliance and Horde will want to gain control of, but makes them relatively obvious, so when the Alliance and Horde take down the traitor and take over the new area, they don't expect that the real mole was within their ranks the whole time.

This could even explain why Zandalari Trolls and Kul Tiran humans are unlocked later in the expansion, because our initial victory in their lands isn't actually the end of it, and we end up having to do a second campaign to actually free them.

SPOILERS OVER

I think some of the dialogue we already have could support this as well. For instance, Jaina's dialogue in the original features trailer isn't very heroic, but it was easier to dismiss when the early marketing seemed to paint the war as a necessary thing for both factions that we should be rooting for. Now that the war has actually started, it seems almost definite that it's another misdirection by a greater villain, with both the Alliance and Saurfang being against it. In other words, this makes Jaina's dialogue in line with the villains in hindsight. Then there's also her "beware of me" at the end of her Warbringer being pretty ominous. In a vacuum, it's easily a cool moment for her, but everything else makes it more questionable.

Now, I'll admit, I think this would be a disservice to Jaina's character as well. She'd go from a peace-aiming intellectual in Warcraft III, to a guilt-motivated warmonger in Mists of Pandaria, to a straight up hypocrite who lets people she cares about die to make up for letting her father die, but I don't think it would be out of the realm of possibility. It would serve fairly easily as the sort of twist that everyone has come to expect in plots like this. First, the constant clarification that she's not a dreadlord due to the meme would help distract from her still being a secret traitor, and most people's eyes are on Greymane as the one who would betray the Alliance for the sake of revenge.

To be fair, her being an antagonist may not be the end of it. I'm vaguely aware of her having an arc in Kul Tiras about confronting her demons, so it's possible she might have helped start the war, but ultimately come to regret it, but that's another theory for another time.

I was thinking about something like this as well. I think the reason the Azshara short was delayed is because it reveals information that might have made the Battle for Lordaeron appear in a different light, particularly with Jaina.

My best idea would be that Azshara had control of the underwater territory where Jaina's father's ships sunk, and Jaina made a deal with her to get the ship back and/or commune with the spirits. And whatever that cost was on her end, indirectly led to the burning of Teldrassil.

[Deleted]

Teldrassil, lost, Undercity, lost again. She neither gained a tactical advantage by capturing Teldrassil, nor did she manage to keep her capital. She failed her objective twice, and managed to get her best general captured. BfA started with a loss for the Horde.

Whatever gets you through the night LMAO The saltiness is strong with this one...

[Aucald]

But in what warfronts is jaina fighting? The arathi and maybe the barren ones would be the most hardcore in terms of body counts but so far I though she was in Kul tiras and that personal journey of her

The Warfronts are max-level, end-game content - at that point in the storyline of BfA Jaina would've already gone through her Kul Tiras story-arc and united the Kul Tiran navy and its solders with the Alliance. She is, at that point, free to be in and about the world doing what she needs to do in service to the Alliance and her people. I don't know the time period of the context that Rexxar is referring to in the screenshots, but as he doesn't say anything like that in the leveling War Campaign (at least in my Beta experience) I am assuming it happens later and thus also during the end-game content.

[Geofferson]

I think it's more likely that as the war goes on Anduin will start doing some shady shit.

Anduin is now a Righteous Crusader and it was is no way an accident that they recreated the Arthas' Return Home Cinematic in WC3 with Anduin's entrance; That was very intentional.

I assume that Sylvanas' continuing to win and escape will grind Anduin down and he'll start down a path similar to the Scarlet Crusade.

Jaina is too powerful to be involved beyond the "epic" points in story. If there's nuance it will be with Genn, Si:7 and Anduin doing shady shit.

Jaina was excluded from Legion because she is game breaking and I won't be surprised if Azshara kills her so Blizzard can take her off the board.

- - - Updated - - -

The Warfronts are max-level, end-game content - at that point in the storyline of BfA Jaina would've already gone through her Kul Tiras story-arc and united the Kul Tiran navy and its solders with the Alliance. She is, at that point, free to be in and about the world doing what she needs to do in service to the Alliance and her people. I don't know the time period of the context that Rexxar is referring to in the screenshots, but as he doesn't say anything like that in the leveling War Campaign (at least in my Beta experience) I am assuming it happens later and thus also during the end-game content.

They'll probably have Jaina kill Rexxar in a cinematic in revenge for him killing her Father and use it as a Rallying Cry for the Horde around Rexxar as a Martyr of the Horde.

[Zandalariprelate]

The Warfronts are max-level, end-game content - at that point in the storyline of BfA Jaina would've already gone through her Kul Tiras story-arc and united the Kul Tiran navy and its solders with the Alliance. She is, at that point, free to be in and about the world doing what she needs to do in service to the Alliance and her people. I don't know the time period of the context that Rexxar is referring to in the screenshots, but as he doesn't say anything like that in the leveling War Campaign (at least in my Beta experience) I am assuming it happens later and thus also during the end-game content.

Well in that case then definitely we are missing something for Rexxar to say that, hell he was very neutral even in MoP but I welcome some dark events done by the alliance, the horde being the only one doing visible bad stuff isnt great and its kinda telling the horde player, you are gonna to lose because you are the bad guys.

Hope dadgar and the others ordens start to participate slowly, as far I know some paladins from the alliance and horde abandoned to orden to join war with their faction

[Rathbourne]

Teldrassil - 1-0
Undercity - 2- 0: Despite being the defending faction that was vastly outnumbered, and had apparent centuries of tactical war experience on their side, managed to outwit every one of them and lure them all into a trap they never saw coming, thus meaning Alliance never got the city they gave so much for. Dress up however you like, this was an abject defeat and an embarrassment for them. Any other interpretation than that is either just salty tears or flat out denial. But by all means, employ whichever of these make it easy for you

All Sylvanas did in Lordaeron was fart so hard, Terenas' remains jumped out of its tomb and ran to take a bath in the lake.

Seriously, that dumbass had the night elves beat, A bigass tree to fuel the upcoming war. And what does she do? Burned 50 years worth War resources to the ground. Garrosh and Orgrim are rolling in their graves.

[Deleted]

Jaina is 100% a warmonger now, because she puts the blame for destruction of Theramore on the Horde, and probably also for the death of Varian on the Broken Shore, although Horde has suffered the loss of their warchief in this trap just the same.

Of course she is an antagonist. But because she is the Disney princess of WoW, she will get a redemption arc, while Sylvanas will probably become a raid boss, because she's Horde.

[mickybrighteyes]

Aside from that... those facial expressions she made, the subtle, slight jaw drop as she looks down, seemed more like she's taking in information she can't quite believe, like she didn't even know it happened until right then, which would make sense, since she wasn't around and couldn't be contacted. If she showed up in Stormwind with her shiny new(old) ship and asked to see Anduin, and they told her he was assaulting Undercity, she would have left to help without even asking why, and we all know it.

at the same time, if she was informed that anduin was marching on lordaeron she likely would have gotten some sort of briefing on why there was such a mobilization.

her possible lack of awareness of events would more indicate that she likely also came straight from wherever she was before to show up at the opportune moment and just so happened to get to play the hero. as there has yet to be a reveal about the time between her singing about the daughter of the sea and the battle for lordaeron we can't really say which is the case. So technically the idea that Jaina is also a possible antagonist is likely not that far fetched, especially if we go with the assumption that she shows up with her own plans for how to engage lordaeron.