Metzen Interview about Fandom and Toxicity

[Relapses]

I don't see gay people with "proud to be fag" slogans or body positives with elephant badges, so why the fuck is it OK to call people "nerd community"?

Equating the word fag (which is hateful) to the word nerd (which is innocuous) is GamerGate levels of pedantry.

[Jngizu]

I am sorry, but no, I cannot find them on my own.

My question to you: did you see them? Because, no offense, but it seems like you haven't and are just talking about death threats and the likes supposedly being there because you saw other people talking about them. And we all know how it works: people exaggerate and overreach.

I saw the tweets to Christie Golden and while many people were expressing their dissatisfaction with the story, there was nothing worth calling an attack. Again, I accept that I might not have seen everything, but so far you are person #10 or so who'd talk about threats whom I ask to link them and who immediately goes defensive and talks that he isn't there to convince me and lets me find these threats myself.

Yes I did see them. But as I said, I don't care if you believe me or not. Especially as it's pretty clear you've already made up your mind and I'm not going to do your research for you. You think it didn't, great for you.

[sillag]

wow's entire shtick is that it's written to encourage toxicity through the 2 faction system

especially bfa. the marketing is literally all about making you pick a side in a race war. and then you wonder why you have gotten your moron fans trying to redefine the real world meaning of genocide so they can feel better about their warchief

wow got exactly the fanbase they were aiming for and its a little rich for them to complain about it now.

[blehmeh]

I almost listened to this but then I saw this:

"The interview starts off talking about the backlash towards The Last Jedi's director Rian Johnson, who took Star Wars in directions which challenged audience perceptions."

No, the new Star Wars movies are bad, and they are over-saturating the market with too many bad movies. Look at any Mark Hamill interview recently, he's clearly also fed up with the studios bullshit. They simply don't understand the franchise, J.J. Abrams admitted he was never a Star Wars fan, so why even bother putting him in charge? Oh right, he likes money.

This is mostly why Solo failed. Disconnected corporate writers and directors that don't really give much of a crap other than promotion tactics and money. This is also why most AAA gaming companies are failing in the public eye too and indies are taking over, after a point the passion is lost to the corporate machine. You don't really see indies getting harassed on the same level as these big companies, I wonder why? (except for No Man Sky, who released way too much hype about a game that didn't match what they said the game would be(also that backlash brought fixes, so backlash can help the consumer too))

I agree that harassing and sending death threats are the line we as consumers shouldn't cross. But this is a strawman argument that ignore that most people just don't like what they are making, and ignoring that the crazies who threaten with actual violence are actually just a very tiny percentage. Lecturing people they need to enjoy everything that these companies make is getting extremely tiring, and really only makes you look like a corporate tool.

Also, they really shouldn't be surprised that by creating shock value events and huge controversial changes to established franchises in order to garner attention that people will get riled up.

Metzen hasn't made anything good since WC3 so I believe his opinion is completely irrelevant. Or does me thinking that and having my own opinion make me "toxic"?

This type of authoritative labeling and thinking is what is truly toxic.

[beelgers]

I don't see gay people with "proud to be fag" slogans or body positives with elephant badges, so why the fuck is it OK to call people "nerd community"?

This is pretty much the definition of a false equivalence.

I'm proud to be a nerd. Just throwing that out there.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

All he said will fall on ears that won't hear a damn thing. Being negitive as fuck is all that draws attention and in our age on the internet getting attention seems to be the primary goal of all. I have opinions like everyone else on WoW, Star Wars, or whatever. I just don't really worry to much about what other peoples are unless they are a collect group of people and even if I dip my toe into the waters and look at what people outside of them are saying usually its just with a grain of salt. I don't feel the need to change them to my view. Or force them to my way. I just say my opinion and then keep sayting it without worry of the haters.

[rrayy]

So long as people pay to play wow there will always be 'toxicity' because of the consumer/producer relationship. Without a certain level of 'toxicity' the producer will take advantage of you for everything you have. Consider the relationship apple has with it's customers and how much they bend them over the rails and buttfuck them for every penny they have every time a 'new' iphone comes out or a 'new' 5000$ 'laptop' comes out. Consider how apple unleashes loads of proprietary nonsense on their customers.

If that's the kind of relationship you want to have with your media then by all means let down your defenses and spread your asscheeks for your corporate overlords.

Fandoms like Star Wars™ don't owe Disney© or anyone an ounce of respect or a dime of their money just because of legacy, political correctness, etc, besides the movie was fine if not average.

The internet is a terrible place full of terrible people and you must have claws if you want to survive.

Disney doesn't owe the fans anything either. It goes both ways.

[Flurryfang]

God it is good to hear his voice again! I really miss the guy and i think he was a great front for the community of WoW.

I also agree with him, that the fandom of things can be pretty ruthless and often blown up to extremes by people who can hide behind alter egos online and away from repercussions.

That said, i also think the defense of "I was not even here when this was decided, so i am free of any critique" is a poor defense. When you take on the leading role of a department in the company, it is your job to make sure that the things done before you does not come back to bite you in the ass and if there are something in the past that might be a bit dangerous, such as the story made before Golden got a board, it is up to that person to prepare a defense in that situation. No matter what, if you become the lead designer of a game or a lead story writer for a game, your job is pretty much to make sure that the story is good from the day the job is yours, that also meaning the story which was made before you.

So yes, it is really sad that the internet/gaming community is showing its worst side to Golden and i do not condone it at all, but it is still on the shoulders of Golden and the other senior writers to make sure that the content that comes out now, is actually good. If it is bad, say it is and change it. I know things are very much set in stone when it is approved, but if it is as bad as the Burning of Teldrassil, you still have the power to go in and rewrite character texts and character interactions until the day of launch.

[Mehrunes]

I'll have to listen to this later so I'm only going off the way wowhead presented it, but if he made the argument that "anonymous internet crowds ripping people apart, unconstructively expressing criticism, and lacking empathy" may turn off future generations of creators into sharing their works in context of his remarks about the Last Jedi, he's basically arguing how behavior he criticizes there is going to save creative mediums from future Rian Johnsons. Which wouldn't play all that well into his overall point.

Also, nice, we have a confirmation that Anduin used mass ress in the cinematic. Interesting tidbit.

[Relapses]

I almost listened to this but then I saw this:

"The interview starts off talking about the backlash towards The Last Jedi's director Rian Johnson, who took Star Wars in directions which challenged audience perceptions."

No, the new Star Wars movies are bad, and they are over-saturating the market with too many bad movies. Look at any Mark Hamill interview recently, he's clearly also fed up with the studios bullshit. They simply don't understand the franchise, J.J. Abrams admitted he was never a Star Wars fan, so why even bother putting him in charge? Oh right, he likes money.

This is mostly why Solo failed. Disconnected corporate writers and directors that don't really give much of a crap other than promotion tactics and money. This is also why most AAA gaming companies are failing in the public eye too and indies are taking over, after a point the passion is lost to the corporate machine. You don't really see indies getting harassed on the same level as these big companies, I wonder why? (except for No Man Sky, who released way too much hype about a game that didn't match what they said the game would be(also that backlash brought fixes, so backlash can help the consumer too))

I agree that harassing and sending death threats are the line we as consumers shouldn't cross. But this is a strawman argument that ignore that most people just don't like what they are making, and ignoring that the crazies who threaten with actual violence are actually just a very tiny percentage. Lecturing people they need to enjoy everything that these companies make is getting extremely tiring, and really only makes you look like a corporate tool.

Also, they really shouldn't be surprised that by creating shock value events and huge controversial changes to established franchises in order to garner attention that people will get riled up.

Metzen hasn't made anything good since WC3 so I believe his opinion is completely irrelevant. Or does me thinking that and having my own opinion make me "toxic"?

This type of authoritative labeling and thinking is what is truly toxic.

...you openly admit that you didn't listen to the podcast, rambled on about Star Wars and corporate America then complained about labeling the exact behavior you're exhibiting as "authoritative."

[rrayy]

I almost listened to this but then I saw this:

"The interview starts off talking about the backlash towards The Last Jedi's director Rian Johnson, who took Star Wars in directions which challenged audience perceptions."

No, the new Star Wars movies are bad, and they are over-saturating the market with too many bad movies. Look at any Mark Hamill interview recently, he's clearly also fed up with the studios bullshit. They simply don't understand the franchise, J.J. Abrams admitted he was never a Star Wars fan, so why even bother putting him in charge? Oh right, he likes money.

This is mostly why Solo failed. Disconnected corporate writers and directors that don't really give much of a crap other than promotion tactics and money. This is also why most AAA gaming companies are failing in the public eye too and indies are taking over, after a point the passion is lost to the corporate machine. You don't really see indies getting harassed on the same level as these big companies, I wonder why? (except for No Man Sky, who released way too much hype about a game that didn't match what they said the game would be(also that backlash brought fixes, so backlash can help the consumer too))

I agree that harassing and sending death threats are the line we as consumers shouldn't cross. But this is a strawman argument that ignore that most people just don't like what they are making, and ignoring that the crazies who threaten with actual violence are actually just a very tiny percentage. Lecturing people they need to enjoy everything that these companies make is getting extremely tiring, and really only makes you look like a corporate tool.

Also, they really shouldn't be surprised that by creating shock value events and huge controversial changes to established franchises in order to garner attention that people will get riled up.

Metzen hasn't made anything good since WC3 so I believe his opinion is completely irrelevant. Or does me thinking that and having my own opinion make me "toxic"?

This type of authoritative labeling and thinking is what is truly toxic.

First, That isn't what Mark Hamill said or is. Second, you are not the arbiter of how a Star Wards flim should be or what the franchise is. Third, it isn't simply people not liking something. This is fans who think they are entitled to have everything catered to them exactly how they want it. They are unwilling to give anything a chance otherwise. Finally, everything you stated is your opinion and not fact. Thinking and presenting your opinion as fact is what makes one toxic, not simply having an opinion.

[kraid]

o_O

Okay... I haven't encountered that. Eeew Necrohilia... definitely not my fetish.
I'd rather hug a certain lightborne Draenei.

No dick is surviving that undead vagunza.

[Cel]

The same people who complain about Blizzard's story choices are the same as those who complained about 'The Last Jedi' and various other things: they have personalized something that exists outside of themselves. They think that a story is theirs as opposed to something that was created for an audience of many, such as a video game or a movie. They have personal ownership (for reasons that are beyond me) and get super upset when a game designer or screen writer doesn't read their mind and create they story that someone has created in their head. There would be nothing wrong with this I suppose except for the fact that these people are the loudest with their criticisms and for what? You don't like the story? So unsub. Don't like where Disney is taking Star Wars? Don't see Solo or Episode IX. If only these people realized what they could accomplish if they had their own goals and put their energy into that. You don't like something? Create your own game or your own movie or your own comic, etc. Well, that takes more effort that screeching on the internet, so I guess that'll never happen.

tl:dr, There is no excuse for being toxic, but be careful of white-knighting a conversation because that addition is just about as bad. Its ok to have an opinion and share it. Don't be an ass when you do, and don't be an ass in response.


I get the impression that your view point is just about as 'toxic', limited in view, and about as pointless as the people you are referring to.

I wont deny that there are a handful of oddball people that get so invested that when the story doesn't go 'their' way, they blow up and throw a tantrum. I dont deny that population exists or may even be a greater number then I would expect.

But as the internet has a habit of doing (and you are reflecting in your post) it turns topics like these into witch hunts and no 'actual' discussion takes place because people haven't grown up from flinging insults, challenges and threats, rather then actually discuss what they do or don't like about a product. People with actual criticism get gunned down and throw into the same group of morons that are actually only just harassing others. Post like yours that do just that are just as toxic and negative to conversations as those fanning the flames of other's anger.

Personally, I am on the side of not liking how the story played out. I am perfectly valid in my opinion (and would love to actually have someone change my mind if they could, rather then just spout the consistent retort of 'why don't you go do better' or 'you're just mad it didn't go your way' because those are senseless arguments that don't apply, not to mention I am not trying to argue, but discuss a point of view). It is good to think about the things we consume. Even more so in art. The stories, movies, games that get the gears turning in your brain are the best, or at least I believe.

But this story didn't do that for me. It was just came across as eye candy. I have been playing WoW since day one and I have learned to suspend my belief pretty far. But I feel Blizzard is testing that limit with blunt, linear story telling that doesn't engage me like it has before. Why a flying ship? To get out of harms way? have a dominating presence on the battle field? Ok, I can make up excuses in my head even if some of them are reaching. Why arcane canons to fire a spell she could do without the arcane canons? Its just purely visual fluff at that point. And while this is a mundane example, but its one of countless.

I can still enjoy the game outside of the storyline, so please don't come at with with 'why don't you quit then', but as a story line I have been invested in for years, its unfair to call someone a fanatic for being disheartened at what I view as a lessening in quality of story telling (and no you don't have to be a professional in the same field to be a critique, no one made that rule. If you have an opinion, you by definition, probably have criticisms about most things in your life).

The funny thing for me, its not the direction of the story that got me. Im not a alliance vs. horde player. I have enjoyed both sides of the battle. Its purely how its being portrayed. Shallow characters with predictable actions because they are so linear. Spur of the moment drama created obviously just to drive content vs. a story that drives content. Walking the knife edge of too much visual fluff. Some of these are personal gripes, some maybe limitations of telling a story through a mmo, but IMO, some of it was just lazy imagination.

The story could have gone in countless directions, but just to illustrate what I am talking about, I think my friend's suggestion hit me as the one I would have enjoyed the most, and the amusing part, it hardly even changed the story, but it did so much for it.

All the events could have been almost the same, but I think what would have given us so much more depth, actual in-game controversy (rather then arguing about the quality of the game) was at the end of 'Before the Storm' when Sylvanas was killing 'defectors'/civilians. Genn could still have had his opinion change of the Forsaken and their interaction with the living, but at that point divert for what was presented to us and pursue convincing Anduin of Sylvanas's pure evil and regardless of the horde had to remove Sylvanas from power. Anduin struggles with the decision but in the end chooses to attack Undercity first. The burning of Teldrassil came after in response.

This does a number of things:
Genn still has his revelation, but now understands his hatred lies with purely Sylvanas and not against the forsaken.
Anduin grows as a character as he actually takes the initiative. Chooses a path sightly questionable in his character of lawfully/good in that he is the instigator, but is still entirely in character as its for the good of many (even those outside of his own faction).
Sylvanas would have an excuse for all her behavior. Rather then looking like another rogue Horde faction leader with a personal agenda, it would have solidified the Horde in back Sylvanas, but there could have been question and concern about her use of the blight and lack of care in blighting even her own horde.

All the same events would have still taken place, just a slight reordering and I personally believe it would have given the story and characters far more depth and us players much more interesting concepts to think about.

That said, I don't know how the rest of BFA plays out. Maybe due to later decisions in the story it simply 'has' to be the the way it went and until that gap is filled, whats done is done and I just have to hope for a resolution.

But so far I haven't seen a single person really provide the reasons for why my belief the story-line has become shallow and it actually is engaging and what I am missing. Rather, both sides of the argument rather hurl insults at each other and call each other toxic nerds, uncultured idiots and the like. Either side of the argument has regressed to childish behavior.

Its the internet, guess I am not surprised, but still, I can't stop myself for wishing for better.

- - - Updated - - -

I almost listened to this but then I saw this:

"The interview starts off talking about the backlash towards The Last Jedi's director Rian Johnson, who took Star Wars in directions which challenged audience perceptions."

No, the new Star Wars movies are bad, and they are over-saturating the market with too many bad movies. Look at any Mark Hamill interview recently, he's clearly also fed up with the studios bullshit. They simply don't understand the franchise, J.J. Abrams admitted he was never a Star Wars fan, so why even bother putting him in charge? Oh right, he likes money.

I should have paraphrased this quote. Blehmeh, you hit it spot on.

[AndyRoo]

For anybody looking for a tl,dw: Metzen is embarrassed by nerd culture and its inability to differentiate between reality and fiction.

Can't say I blame him. Just look at the Teldrassill thread. Grown ass men calling each other out like children because they... play Horde. It's pathetic.

This. Basically people who have nothing better to do, because this game and fantasy world is quite literally their life.

[rrayy]

Oh, I completely agree. I was not trying to justify those responses. Was just trying to point out a silver lining People who over react and start threatening writers, lashing out at players for their faction....they need professional help.... Unfortunately, the internet does not have a "crazy' filter :P

They do it because of the anonymity they get sitting behind their keyboard and screen. None of those people who threaten on twitter would ever go to that same developer and say it to their face. They are cowards.

[Cel]

You are right. But let me tell you something that about a few months ago one of the night elf fans was criticizing in a very good and civilized manner on twitter to Golden that night elves are constantly receive a negative story development. It wasn't even a criticism, more like explaining the issue and how their fans are sad about it. And then she twitted that some people are filling her feed with stupid things and she warned that she will mute them if they continue it. I am not pointing at her, what I mean is that in case of storytelling, you can't even criticize. A creator creates something based on his/her opinion and not on others. This is how story works. You just have to shut up and take it. It is not like gameplay mechanics to argue about something in it and the designers work on that.

Your 100% wrong. You can criticize anything and everyone has the power to do so. Its up to the person being critical to not make an ass of himself or not, but we are 100% able to judge things we like and don't like and also to share that view point. Or are you suggesting the fact that we have movie critics, food critics, art critics is completely pointless and other peoples' opinions have no relevance?

In all honesty, Golden is in a weird place. I have read some of her work, but not so much to be overly critical. But I can't help but feel her being a N.Y. Times Best Seller is largely because her books have been about WoW with an already established fan base. Credit doesn't really go to her for her popularity. Then again, her stories are directed outside of her own imagination as well (as Blizzard gives her direction and she doesn't have the freedom of writing her own stories in full, when I criticize WoW's current story it can't be directed at her. Its a team making these decisions and honestly, when it comes to story telling, I think doing it as a team limits the story).

I was surprised when she took the job at Blizzard simply because as an artist myself, I would think she would want to step out of the shadow of Blizzard and make a name for herself, rather then ride on a video games popularity. But... Meh, money.....

[metzger84]

No dick is surviving that undead vagunza.

Yuck, please don't give me any ideas.

[blehmeh]

Disney doesn't owe the fans anything either. It goes both ways.

Exactly, that's why the movies are failing?

...you openly admit that you didn't listen to the podcast, rambled on about Star Wars and corporate America then complained about labeling the exact behavior you're exhibiting as "authoritative."

Me admitting it's my opinion is "authoritative"?

First, That isn't what Mark Hamill said or is. Second, you are not the arbiter of how a Star Wards flim should be or what the franchise is. Third, it isn't simply people not liking something. This is fans who think they are entitled to have everything catered to them exactly how they want it. They are unwilling to give anything a chance otherwise. Finally, everything you stated is your opinion and not fact. Thinking and presenting your opinion as fact is what makes one toxic, not simply having an opinion.

First, he's clearly not happy about Star Wars. If you don't want to see the dozens of interviews where he says he doesn't agree with the direction of Luke, that's your deal.

Second, you're right, I never said I was? Solo just flopped, so they must be doing something wrong.

Third, yes it is exactly about that, why else have all these interviews blaming the consumer? You are labeling people exactly in the way I said they were. "Oh you didn't like this? That means you are x, and I won't actually listen to why you think this way."

Lastly, of course it's my opinion and never once said it was fact, thinking the Star Wars movies are bad is my opinion, and many people share the same opinion. So you're literally saying that presenting my opinion is toxic? I think my original point that being labeled as "toxic" because I have an opinion is being proven as we speak.

[Rexosaurus]

Aw man, I forgot how much I love Metzen. You can always tell that he's a really down-to-earth and nice dude.

[dacoolist]

If people can't understand the ability to ignore certain types of people, and to progress with others when needed - then you're on the wrong planet, and you're in the wrong industry.

The internet isn't reality, the internet is a place where trolls hide, hackers stride, and far left/right people THRIVE. It's time to stop acting like its hard to fathom that people love something so much to blindly talk about it on the internet with whomever will listen to them, echo chamber or not.. it's HOW IT HAS WORKED since the beginning of the public internet.

Stop thinking into this so much, and start making positive changes or at least instead of complaining about issues actually throw in HOW TO FIX the issue to begin with.

I like the idea behind the podcast/stream/whatever they call this, but people are taking this the wrong way