Sylvanas evil ? Don't think so [Spoilers and theory crafting]

[HavokHeart]

conquering a city, give you their resources, their treasures and their natural resources like hunt, woods and minerals, there was no advantage in burning the city

I doubt you would find many minerals on top of a tree. Again... the advantage is not having to extend resources required to continue control of and defend the occupied city. Even the cost associated with feeding/providing for the civilian population is often ignored. Occupation is costly and I welcome any argument explaining how it is not.

[Syegfryed]

I doubt you would find many minerals on top of a tree.

it was just a exemple of what you can find there, was a tree full of fertile terrains, and there was night elf treasures

Again... the advantage is not having to extend resources required to continue control of and defend the occupied city. Even the cost associated with feeding/providing for the civilian population is often ignored. Occupation is costly and I welcome any argument explaining how it is not.

no one said occupation is not costly, the main point is how the benefits of the occupation would surpass any cost by miles ahead, coming from resources, hostages and strategical location, the alliance would e at horde mercy with fear of harming the civilians, and the horde could unleash havoc trough the Easter kingdoms without the fear of big retaliation.

[Cainium]

It being genocide. Because that's what it was.

Nice point, not.

You should read this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_definitions

Sylvanas is not going to extinguish the nightelf race nor is that her long-term plan. So no genocide here.

With either killing Malfurion or burning Teldreassil she forced the revenge attack on Undercity.

Without Jainas appearance there she would have killed most of the Alliance troops and leaders in just two battles.

TWO battles.

That is a strategic mistake? That's a fucking great master plan, which even Saurfang has to commit (in the new books) that it could work out.

Another thing to note: According to the new books the siege of darkshore lasted multiple DAYS. Super easy for the nelfs to evacuate the tree. Why didn't they do that? Time was not an issue. And if Sylvanas would not have burned the tree, there is still no excuse for the nightelfs to let Sylvanas take their civilians as hostages ON PURPOSE.

[davesurfer]

Nah it means that I dont have to because they said it in the actual story.

I do appreciate how all of y'all are using arbitrary definitions so you can somehow pretzel logic yourself into not admitting it.

Again, when you're parceling out what actual genocide TECHNICALLY means by contesting the use of a single word in a definition, you've already lost the argument.

Are you being serious or trolling? That was Astarii’s and Anduin's thought, that doesn't make it fact.

[Specialka]

Did you even play the pre patch. And plan from the start...nope it was not the plan. But she did order it, and it did happen. It matters not if it was a plan before the war. The action she takes as commander during the war counts. So when the order is given makes no difference. As for why she did it...she did it out of emotions and with a smile on her face. Because she wanted to break the hold on the alliance.

Tactical choice ....yeah a tactical choice to commit genocide...
And for it to be a genocide it has to be a choice + intention to break/kill a whole race ( or other thing). She did both ( try to).
Really get a dictonary, it is by definition a genocide what she did.

That is why it is a war crime, not a genocide. You should read the dictionnary, or even compare about actual genocide in human history.

[Perryn]

Without Jainas appearance there she would have killed most of the Alliance troops and leaders in just two battles.

Yeah, exactly. Without the appearance of probably the most agressive anti horde character today (possibly barring Genn), who EVER could have thought that she would show up and interfere.

Impressive plan there.

Yes, it is a strategic mistake on a galactic scale, one of several mistakes she has made. She's an armchair general who came to faulty conclusions (that the alliance would seek out war, that the gilneans would cause a fracture in the alliance if the latter went to help Teldrassil's occupation, that burning the tree would break the spirit of the kaldorei), making poor choices (not killing Malf herself when given the option, opting to burn the tree rather than hold it).

She's a formidable combattant but an amateur general.

As far as evacuation goes, precisely according to the stories, they spent the entire time evacuating people. Teldrassil was where a significant part of the nelf population lived, just because you see a few hundred in game doesn't mean that's the reality of it in lore.

Also according to the stories, the nelfs didn't "let" her take the civilians as hostage, their entire fighting strength was on the shores fighting her. Bar the contingents aboard the ships there -should- be next to no fighters left of the original nelven forces.

I don't really get the impression you have at all read the stories half as well as you think.

[vertigo12]

conquering a city, give you their resources, their treasures and their natural resources like hunt, woods and minerals, there was no advantage in burning the city

The place has been evacuated. It is now a vacant area. Whatever left there I believe many wil perceive perished already plus the fact it would cause PTSD on them if they even think of going back.

- - - Updated - - -

Perhaps Sylvanas might have known of a Darnassian relic that might be a key ingredient that make Azerite double breakthrough.

[Skulltaker]

You judge a fantasy universe characters, applying modern IRL legislation? Oh god. Well, here's another way to apply modern IRL legislation: you literally can't hold Sylvanas responsible. She is not alive. And dead people can't be brought to court.

Yes. Becasue said scenario was written in our age and time, the citizens use our language and terminology. There is nothing wrong with that. But sure, keep dismissing it because you can't win an argument.

And what you say is factually wrong. If there was a mean to elevate a dead person to a concious state, not to be, technically, alive. If there was a way to reanimate, lets say, Hitler, he could and would be held accountable for his crimes.

So where exactly does the Geneva Convention mention magical trees with cities on it? I'm genuinely interested. Or portals, through which people evacuated. Which obviously were there. Because it's a capital. It did happen in Alliance scenario. Just saying.

Why does it matter if it is a giant magical tree or a hill? Targeting a specific area, no matter what shape it takes, and killing all people indiginous to said area constitutes genocide.

Like I said several times before: the goal was to deny Alliance azerite supply line. I have easier job because I have only to repeat one thesis from the novella, rather than write walls of text full of emotional outrage.

Doesn't matter what the goal was. The law cares about intent. If any part of a crime is proven to be intentious, all parts of the crime are intentious by association.

I'm not so sure German law would be so proscriptively ambiguous, so I'm quite sure you're probably not entirely accurately framing that definition. Intent, in the capacity to which laws deal with it, is the mens rea component of a crime. It is not, to paraphrase your definition, "the decision to do something bad", rather it is the specific internal directive to bring about a specific result. This is why there are different classifications of criminality when you occasion the death or injury of another person. As I said, you cannot accidentally commit genocide, it must be proven beyond reasonable doubt that your intention explicitly genocidal.

Yes, Sylvanas' orders resulted in the death and injury of many Night Elves, but it is abundantly clear that her objective was not to exterminate Night Elves. Her objective was to destroy an important location of significant cultural significance, as well as strategic utility. Mass murder is hardly any better than genocide, it's at least as bad. She did commit mass murder. She didn't commit genocide. The issue now is that you are wrong, you misused a word and you just refuse to admit that you did so through ignorance. I understand you don't want to look stupid, but that ship has sailed. At this point you're just adding intractability to that.

The very abreviated version of Intent (Vorsatz) in german law is "Wissen und Wollen" - Knowing and Wanting (wissen = to know, (Das) Wissen = (the) knowledge; wollen = to want something) You have to know about the illegality of whatever it is you desire, and you have to want to bring it to pass. It stands opposed to fahrlässigkeit - negligence. Intent (Vorsatz) is a prerequisite for prosecution, except for crimes where the law sees negligence as punishable.

And no, I didn't phrase it as 'to do something bad', I phrased it as 'to do something bad fully knowing that it is prohibited by the law', which is, as far as I can tell, the definition of intent in all societies. The other different classifications would be due to neglect, and due to accident, correct?

You are right, you cannot accidentally commit genocide. You can accidentaly wipe out a people, but that is another topic. On the 'it must be proven beyond reasonable doubt that the specific intention is to commit genocide', however, I disagree. It cannot be due to negligence, or accident, as we established. The action that leads to genocide has to be intentionally, and the person(s) commiting it must be aware of the fact that they are about to conscienciously wipe out a major population.

So, you need intent. Sylvanas intent is: (a) burn the tree, (b) destroy a strategic port, (c) deny azerite. She knows, however, that the Night Elves are still there. She accepts it as an unavoidable consequence, (d). So, she has oblique intent; by bringing about (a), (b) and (c), she is guilty of intentionally bringing about (d).

Simple example? You plan to kill someone, by shooting him. You fire the shot, it hits the person you aimed for in the head, but in the process, shatters an expensive vase. You knew this was an expectable outcome, as the person was tanding right in front of it. You are now guilty, according to the law, of intentionally killing a person (murder or manslaughter), and destruction of property. You have intent in both cases.

For Sylvanas, this clearly constitutes intent. She must have been aware of the consequences of her actions. The Night Evles were her target: Their home, their port. She targeted a geographic location inhabited by them, and two other scentient races, for that matter, and willingly and knowingly brought about their destruction.

Occupation takes resources. Completely destroying a flammable city gives the same advantage at no cost.

Yeah, except you might have gained Teldrassils ressources, a major port on Kalimdors northwestern side and a possible staging ground for an attack on the Exodar, a bargaining chip for future negotiations with the Alliance, Hostages, intelligence. But that would require a competent leader who's not a genocidal psychopath.

[Felixon]

Stopped reading at the statement "She is not evil".

[Xilurm]

Garrosh was good compared to Sylvanas. Lol...

[dunkl]

I think sylvanas knows that this has to happen because vol'jin made her warchief because of loa. and loa might know the sequence of events that will unfolden / need to unfolden for our future to be safe. she's immune to voild or olden gods and knows their plan, I think, and they cannot manipulate her or undead like the rest of living things. she can't tell anyone that she knows the olden gods or voild plans or it will alert them that she is aware. Everything that is happening is part of a bigger plan, it all comes down to the loa needing to put her in charge, to set things on a sequence of events.

she probably knows that anyone who dies while azeroth is in pain will be able to come back after we heal her.

[Specialka]

I think sylvanas knows that this has to happen because vol'jin made her warchief because of loa. and loa might know the sequence of events that will unfolden / need to unfolden for our future to be safe. she's immune to voild or olden gods and knows their plan, I think, and they cannot manipulate her or undead like the rest of living things. she can't tell anyone that she knows the olden gods or voild plans or it will alert them that she is aware. Everything that is happening is part of a bigger plan, it all comes down to the loa needing to put her in charge, to set things on a sequence of events.

she probably knows that anyone who dies while azeroth is in pain will be able to come back after we heal her.

I thought about that, and I really do hope Blizzard will not go that way. Like I did all these bads things to make the old gods things they could manipulate me, but I manipulate them in the end, bla, bla, bla... Bad manga scenario.

[baskev]

That is why it is a war crime, not a genocide. You should read the dictionnary, or even compare about actual genocide in human history.

....its called a genocide in the book. And look the definition up...still a genocide.

Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part.

Was it a accident or something like that...nope

She took intentional action: she said burn them all. and ordered them to fire. She could have assaulted the tree etc. Nope she acted out of anger.

Was it targeted at 1 race...yes she choose the night elves to brake the hold of the alliance kalimidor. She could also choose to cut them off or invaded them. But she choose her target and method. And she knew that most people from ashenvale and darkshore would have fled there.

[Specialka]

....its called a genocide in the book. And look the definition up...still a genocide.

Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part.

Was it a accident or something like that...nope

She took intentional action: she said burn them all. and ordered them to fire. She could have assaulted the tree etc. Nope she acted out of anger.

Was it targeted at 1 race...yes she choose the night elves to brake the hold of the alliance kalimidor. She could also choose to cut them off or invaded them. But she choose her target and method. And she knew that most people from ashenvale and darkshore would have fled there.

War Crime, not genocide. It was not the plan at the beginning, it was not methodical and systemic. It was mass murder, and would be considered War Crime in our world. It was near Genocide in the sense she did kill most of the NE population.

[baskev]

War Crime, not genocide. It was not the plan at the beginning, it was not methodical and systemic. It was mass murder, and would be considered War Crime in our world. It was near Genocide in the sense she did kill most of the NE population.

read any definition. It does not need to be a plan. It needs to be on purpose.

And methodical: She went zone to zone and then attacked the main city.

really read up on it , war crime was arathi highlands, warcrime was blight usage in the battle of undercity.

Genocide was teldrassil. It was intended. She could have done other things. Or let the civilians escape. She ordered to fire at the tree. Under protest of other horde pressent.
She had a plan to brake their will, hope and power. She targeted the moonwells and their hope.

Several thread starters have made it very clear. So does enough for it to be called genocide by any definition.

wiki:
Genocide is intentional action to destroy a people (usually defined as an ethnic, national, racial, or religious group) in whole or in part.

[Specialka]

With such a literal reading of this definition, every battle or war is a genocide

[LuminaL]

That is why it is a war crime, not a genocide. You should read the dictionnary, or even compare about actual genocide in human history.

play with words all you want, genocide , war crime, hate killing, mercy killing, strategical tactics, survival necessities ...
it doesnt mean what she did is not evil.

not only she killed thousands of night elves, Worgens, humans and other races there, she also fully destroyed night elves capital and two villages inside the tree ( not bringing lives of wild life and other humanoid creatures into the account )

she could easily invade the world tree, capture it, and Alliance couldnt do anything. because unlike hordes maniac warchief, alliance does not burn its cities with soldiers inside just so horde cant have it.

[Deleted]

I honestly think Sylvanas is even worse than Garrosh, because at the end of the day even Garrosh pointed out that what she was doing was insane lol

[Deleted]

The difference between bombing a city in the real world and in WoW, is that WoW capital cities tend to be the concentrated population of a race/species.

So no, the Blitz in WW2 and the burning of Teldrassil are not comparable in the least.

[dunkl]

the loa appointed sylvanas warchief for a reason, let's find out what that reason is. Maybe they forsee events and knew to ensure these events, she had to be pointed leader. Also, on a sideish note, she alsmost seems playful - in a way that one would be playful if they've gone through these events before, or know the outcome, or know that they're not going to die this or that way, and so in a way she seems rather giddy and tauntish here and there. I wonder if she's gone through these events before and we're seeing her go through the motions so to speak, and being slightly playful with the whole thing. Or perhaps she knows the olden gods and voild plans and is working with the loa to ensure they cannot strengthen or get to azeroth.

Whatever the case may be, the loa appointed her warchief, and we will eventually find out why it had to be this way. It has something to do with the events to come. Maybe each leader of the horde (and the alliance) will become manipulated, controlled, etc, from the voild or olden gods, and she will be the only one left not affected (and the undead), which will end up being azeroth's only saving light in the enveloping darkness.

Yes.

YES!