The Brexit aftermath thread

[Pann]

You are right. But you have over 700k people under such contracts. Not all of them mean people get to work every day or earn a suitable income with them. It is misleading and those contracts are banned everywhere else in the EU. There is nothing more precarious than this.

Zero-hour contracts are not right for every worker but they offer flexibility that many enjoy, young workers who are still in college/uni for example, parents with young children, etc. It is in no-way a given that the workers employed on zero-hour contracts are unable to earn to a suitable income (whatever that might mean). Nor is it true that zero-hour contracts are banned in everywhere else in the EU.

[Pann]

Zero hours contracts offer zero flexibility to the employee and zero stability of income for the employee. Such exploitative practices need to be outlawed.

That is in my experience, both as a employee and employer, completely untrue.

[Pann]

Certainly not my experience. On a zero hours contract you don’t know one day to the next if you will be able to work and generate and income, you have zero control of your time or your income.

As an employer I have never exploited my workforce with zero hours contracts. At the very least we offer part time work, giving the employee more control over their time and the opportunity to seek a second part time job to increase their income, should they so wish.

Zero hours contracts are exploitative and need to be outlawed.

That is not true of many businesses nor was it true of my experiences in fact they were quite the opposite. Zero hours contracts do not go hand in hand with being a poor employer, as an employee it allowed me to fit my work around my studies and later as employer it allowed me to fit shift patterns around the needs of the business, such as employing students during their holiday periods, allowing parents to fit work around their children's schooling, students to alter their work patterns to fit in with their exam load, etc

I have never exploited anyone who worked for me so take those accusations elsewhere! Every single member of staff was treated fairly and not once did anyone find that they had no hours (unless requested).

[dribbles]

At my company we manage to facilitate the needs of parents, students etc without exploiting them with zero hours contracts. If your company uses exploitative zero hours contracts you are indeed a “poor employer”.

I offer zero hours contracts and it is no problem. Employers have to be careful in a world of full employment, like the UK, or their employees are off to someone else who treats them better at the drop of a hat.

Sure I can see it not working in the EU where jobs and the economy are stifled with needless regulation and thin on the ground and with half the youth unemployed. The ball there is very much in the employers court, thanks to the EU.

I suppose the trick to making them work is to have a free thinking, business minded, prosperous and flexible fully employed economy. Thanks to the Brexit vote the UK enjoys this right now and it will only improve after we are fully out.

Brexit - for the many not the few.
The EU - for the few not the many.

[Pann]

At my company we manage to facilitate the needs of parents, students etc without exploiting them with zero hours contracts. If your company uses exploitative zero hours contracts you are indeed a “poor employer”.

Allowing people to work the hours they wish is not exploiting them. I no longer work for that company however the fact that they are consistently voted as one of the UK's top employers by their employees suggests that their employees disagree with your assessment. But what do they know, huh?!?

[Edge-]

https://www.businessinsider.com/r-ri...18-8?r=UK&IR=T

So...is it always a good thing when your countries foreign minister is telling people to "prepare for the possibility of a chaotic no-deal Brexit"?

Because that seems like a bad thing.

[Deleted]

https://www.businessinsider.com/r-ri...18-8?r=UK&IR=T

So...is it always a good thing when your countries foreign minister is telling people to "prepare for the possibility of a chaotic no-deal Brexit"?

Because that seems like a bad thing.

He's not so much addressing "people", but the EU Commission.

[Pann]

Allowing people to work the hours they wish is not a zero hours contract. A zero hours contract has no guarantee of income. A zero hours contract means you are tied to the one job, a job that has zero guarantee of income. A zero hours contract means that you can’t plan ahead, because your income is unstable and your working hours are unpredictable. A zero hours contract lays all the commitment on the employee with zero commitment from the employer.




Which company is that?

Yes, it is. Not necessarily and that is certainly not case in my experience. A zero hour contract in no way means the employee is tied to one job nor does it mean that there is no guarantee of income or that working hours need be unpredictable. Your last point is also wrong employees on zero hour contracts are afforded exactly the same rights and protections as all workers in the UK.

Some employers that offer zero-hour contracts are bad but many are not.

That is none of your business but it was one on the many top companies to work for in the widely published lists that employs many thousands of staff on zero hour contracts. But of course they are all wrong. If only someone could open their eyes to how bad their situations are....

[Slant]

Zero hours contracts offer zero flexibility to the employee and zero stability of income for the employee. Such exploitative practices need to be outlawed.

Not to butt in here, but what is this concept? How do zero hour contracts work? It sounds like it's a sort of on-demand work deal.

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https://www.businessinsider.com/r-ri...18-8?r=UK&IR=T

So...is it always a good thing when your countries foreign minister is telling people to "prepare for the possibility of a chaotic no-deal Brexit"?

Because that seems like a bad thing.

I like how he points the finger at the EU. As if it's the EU's fault for the way things are heading.

"I know we have no position, and the things that we ask for are impossible... it would be good for everyone if you just accepted the impossible and did everything we wanted, because if you don't we'll starve ourselves to death!"

Wow, what a threat...

[Vankrys]

A zero hours contract means that your contract of employment offers no guarantee of working hours. It’s an exploitative practice, but given the current state of the uk, an ever growing practice amongst the less scrupulous employers in the uk.

To exemplify your statement here are subway practices


A major franchise of Subway also uses the contracts, which state, "The company has no duty to provide you with work. Your hours of work are not predetermined and will be notified to you on a weekly basis as soon as is reasonably practicable in advance by your store manager. The company has the right to require you to work varied or extended hours from time to time." Subway workers are also required, as a condition of employment, to waive their rights to limit their workweek to 48 hours

[Slant]

To exemplify your statement here are subway practices


A major franchise of Subway also uses the contracts, which state, "The company has no duty to provide you with work. Your hours of work are not predetermined and will be notified to you on a weekly basis as soon as is reasonably practicable in advance by your store manager. The company has the right to require you to work varied or extended hours from time to time." Subway workers are also required, as a condition of employment, to waive their rights to limit their workweek to 48 hours

Doesn't sound like a contract I'd sign. Also sounds weirdly illegal, if you ask me. Doesn't the UK have any sort of labour protection? I mean, this would get shredded to pieces in front of any labour court in Germany. Heck, the judge would probably find the defendants in contempt simply for trying to argue this wouldn't break a dozen labour laws.

[Kallisto]

So, basically, this is regular lecture for Brexiteers?

Edit: Watched a few clips from James O'Brien's radio show. Does he only get insane callers? They all sound like Dribbles. Is his thinking perhaps the norm in Brexiteer land after all?

How many times do I have to tell people Dribbles is your basic brexiteer. If he's playing the part then give him a damn oscar but this is how your brexiteer thinks. They believe this shit he sprouts.

[Pann]

To exemplify your statement here are subway practices


A major franchise of Subway also uses the contracts, which state, "The company has no duty to provide you with work. Your hours of work are not predetermined and will be notified to you on a weekly basis as soon as is reasonably practicable in advance by your store manager. The company has the right to require you to work varied or extended hours from time to time." Subway workers are also required, as a condition of employment, to waive their rights to limit their workweek to 48 hours

Opting out of the working time directive must be the choice of the employee and they cannot be compelled to do so by the employer therefore this clause cannot be enforced.

It is also worth noting that despite the contracts wording that the company has no duty to provide the employee with work that under UK employment law it cannot suddenly cut a employee's hours of work from, say, 30 hours one week to none the next. If a staff member works a regular set of hours over an extended period of time the employee is entitled to work those hours although the business may reduce the employee's hours to reflect the level of business.

If the business needs to reduce the worker's hours it must ensure that it does so in a fair and proportional manner, for example if the business usually needs 250 staff hours per week and trade has reduced to a level where only 200 hours are required it cannot reduce one or more member of staff's hours to zero but it is able to reduce every member of staff's hours by 20%. However in my experience this rarely happens and staffing levels during periods of low(er) trade can be managed by scheduling staff holidays in the quieter periods.

[Noradin]

That is none of your business but it was one on the many top companies to work for in the widely published lists that employs many thousands of staff on zero hour contracts. But of course they are all wrong. If only someone could open their eyes to how bad their situations are....

So it does not exist. Got it.

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Doesn't sound like a contract I'd sign. Also sounds weirdly illegal, if you ask me. Doesn't the UK have any sort of labour protection? I mean, this would get shredded to pieces in front of any labour court in Germany. Heck, the judge would probably find the defendants in contempt simply for trying to argue this wouldn't break a dozen labour laws.

Why do you think they are illegal anywhere in the EU but in the UK?

[Vankrys]

Sounds illegal to me, like some kind of US contract - I would be surprised if that is legal in the UK.

the very concept of zero hour contract is horrible to me.

Look i understand some industry needs flexibility, but there are tools for that like interim job, seasonal, freelance etc...
I don't have a problem with hiring someone for only a day or only a few hours, as long as it's agreed up front, no surprise.

Being hired on 0 hour contract, on call, but without certitude of work and revenue is not acceptable. Well, maybe, only way i could find this acceptable is if the worker can accept multiple such contract and fill his work week as he see fit. But i don't think it works that way, and interim job already sort of do that.

[Slant]

Why do you think they are illegal anywhere in the EU but in the UK?

Because those are inhumane labour practices. I mean we got rid of repeated 1-year contracts, this one is a whole different kind of exploitation. I wonder, what would happen if the employee said "Great, I'd like to help, but I'm already engaged in this other job, because I need to pay rent"? He'd probably get fired, right? How is that even sustainable if you ignore labour protection?

[Pann]

Being hired on 0 hour contract, on call, but without certitude of work and revenue is not acceptable. Well, maybe, only way i could find this acceptable is if the worker can accept multiple such contract and fill his work week as he see fit. But i don't think it works that way, and interim job already sort of do that.

It doesn't work that way. But, hey, facts are optional in this thread so crack on.

[dribbles]

What's the point in offering the UK a deal when they cannot even agree internally on it, the UK have to first internally agree and then propose a deal.

Does the EU want £39bn or not? A free trade deal? Continuing cooperation on security? etc etc etc No? No problem, see you later and good luck for the future.

Why do you think they are illegal anywhere in the EU but in the UK?

The EU solely exists to make peoples and businesses lives more difficult by making petty things illegal. The barriers they put in place to almost all aspects of commerce is why they fear so much the UK leaving them to become a beacon of low taxation and free enterprise.

Those zero hours contracts are very popular with well known German companies in the UK like Lidl and Aldi, the fact they are illegal in the EU means consumers and workers and business there getter a worse deal than UK ones.

The hopeless EU - always making its citizens lives more miserable.

Because those are inhumane labour practices. I mean we got rid of repeated 1-year contracts, this one is a whole different kind of exploitation. I wonder, what would happen if the employee said "Great, I'd like to help, but I'm already engaged in this other job, because I need to pay rent"? He'd probably get fired, right? How is that even sustainable if you ignore labour protection?

Those evil inhumane German/EU companies shitting all over UK workers, what to do? :P

[Slant]

Those evil inhumane German/EU companies shitting all over UK workers, what to do? :P

That doesn't even make sense... You're just babbling silly insanities right now. Guess you finally cracked, didn't you.

[dribbles]

That doesn't even make sense... You're just babbling silly insanities right now. Guess you finally cracked, didn't you.

For a 5 year old:-

Lidl/Aldi = German/EU - use zero hours contracts. Duhhhhhhh