Unpopular Opinion...Ele Shaman is actually decent with some gear.

[Sughs]

Stop posting things like that without sharing your character info. Enh shaman is on the top end when it comes to the ST dps and burst AoE (sundering).

I don't care about simulations, I have played Enhanc since TBC and I know when the spec is not in a good place. Stormbringer RNG is bullshit and this expansion we are even more dependent of it than in Legion. Sometimes doesn't proc when you really need it, and then it finally procs in the same GCD you finally have other options.

[Deleted]

13k dps ? people are hitting 20k single target in my guild so gj i have 12k on my dh with full aoe talents and shite gear

DPS in which situation? Some specs are extremely bursty + Warmode talents dont matter in raids.

Simcraft wise my 345 rogue sims at <12k. He can burst MUCH higher, especially in warmode (300k hp mobs with 25k dps).

So your dps numbers are pointless unless you tell us where you pull those numbers, how long the fight is etc

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dont even need momentum just go with demonic and eye beam giving haste azerite trait so u have like 60% haste on fel barrage the mobs are dead by the time a shaman casts 2 chain lightnings

Thats the overgeared m0 situation. Outside of burst their dps is extremely low so when people start doing high keys adds will live much longer. And having Earth elemental for big pulls is very strong utility now. Tanks are somewhat pretty fragile in BfA.

[HCLM]

Ok guys just for you. I went on the first boss in the underrot to show your our burst, because you know, most of you live in that delusional world where it is not possible to burst past 15k. I am sure most of you even don't have enough APM to cast ES immediately after it was refreshed by your talent and you overcap maelstrom.

One more thing, before some of you start screaming that it was made on HC and I had the 15% dmg buff. You're comparing our DPS to mages, who has perm 10% dmg buff due to Arcane Intellect. So you can just reduce that dmg by 5% if you can do it properly by your own of course. In this pull the highest dps I had was around 36k.


https://imgur.com/a/1IleooA

I won't post anymore in this Topic. You, mindless mass know better anyway. And let's focus on the numbers because you can't be rank1 on all bosses by using not optimal builds an stats. Instead of focusing on the gameplay ascpect of the spec, which is the real problem of the Elemental Shaman.

[Nyel]

Seriously mate? Who is even talking about the burst phase without counting in BL... I though it is rather obvious that you reach that high number only during the BL.

Arcane mage won't reach 20-30k without BL as well (without sick crit rng)

Also get some Haste. It is your the most important stat, not icnluding int.

So you're factoring in Heroism for your burst DPS that you can accomplish once every ten minutes (at best) - nice. There are a lot of other ranged specs that DON'T need all of these things to be competitive. It's ridiculous that you think using LMT+Elemental+Ascendence+Bloodlust is the normal way for Ele to be competitive.

As I said, I don't have Haste because I'm usually Resto. The point is, Ele burst is mediocre at best. It's not able to compete with pure burst specs. You've been talking about competing with Arcane Mages when it comes to that but you just can't, not with and not without Bloodlust / Heroism. It basically doesn't matter because our skills are tuned badly on top of the issues we have with low stats.

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This game is not simply about damage dealing. And it's not simply about raids anymore.
And please, stop comparing SPEC against CLASS.

Why? Resto isn't the best healer yet it's still more useful than Elemental Shaman when we count utility just because Resto Shaman is a better healer than Ele Shaman is a damage dealer.

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In dungeons the spec feels pretty good I admit. When you're ready to pop off on a large pack, I can get up to 20k + burst damage at 330 ilvl and I feel like the spec satisfies the dungeon burst niche. I mostly roll an aoe build just because of that, though. One major complaint I would have is that lava burst feels so comically weak.It's supposed to be the spell that feels like your hard hitter, and the procs are exciting but the damage pay off doesn't reflect that. It's pretty much treated as another builder like lightening bolt, and it should really be differentiated. Right now on single target the only reliable hard hitter is earth shock, which isn't all that fun imo. Maybe there's a build I haven't tried that fixes this, but I would love to see lava burst make a stand again. Even during questing, it just tickles even a non elite.

The thing is, even Earth Shock is no hard hitter. It costs 60 MS and if it's non-crit it deals damage of two LvB casts. Earth Shock only feels impactful when Aftershock is proccing (same case with Earthquake).
_____

The problem is: our skills cost too much MS or our MS generation is too low. Instead of increasing damage I'd rather see a cost reduction to 50 MS if not down to 40.

[Vulgrim]

Ok guys just for you. I went on the first boss in the underrot to show your our burst, because you know, most of you live in that delusional world where it is not possible to burst past 15k. I am sure most of you even don't have enough APM to cast ES immediately after it was refreshed by your talent and you overcap maelstrom.

One more thing, before some of you start screaming that it was made on HC and I had the 15% dmg buff. You're comparing our DPS to mages, who has perm 10% dmg buff due to Arcane Intellect. So you can just reduce that dmg by 5% if you can do it properly by your own of course. In this pull the highest dps I had was around 36k.


https://imgur.com/a/1IleooA

I won't post anymore in this Topic. You, mindless mass know better anyway. And let's focus on the numbers because you can't be rank1 on all bosses by using not optimal builds an stats. Instead of focusing on the gameplay ascpect of the spec, which is the real problem of the Elemental Shaman.

Ok. Thank you for the confirmation. lol Do you not find it ridiculous that you're trying to excuse the reason you did that amount of dps because you have a buff giving 15% dmg buff in a heroic and it's ok because mages use their class tool kit for the same thing? You don't see the problem there? lmao 23k with a 15% dmg buff you STILL did not reach the numbers you said you could do. Why can't you just show it on a test dummy? 25-30k ST.

I don't agree with lot of people here either but i'm not gonna shit on others for what they think and pull numbers out of my ass. Blizzard looks at numbers ALL THE TIME and change them almost every other patch/hotfix. So who are you to say people SHOULDN'T be looking at numbers for a dps class??? Why the hell can't blizzard look at both mechanics AND tuning numbers?

No ones asking to be rank 1 but when it takes 11 lava bursts to kill a wq mob because of scaling good luck feeling like shit for the rest of the expansion. Affliction warlocks a DOT class can do 90k+ deathbolts but that's ok because we shouldn't be looking at numbers right? It Seems you can't go a post without insulting somebody so I think it's best you don't post anymore on this topic either.

[Straga21]

Ok guys just for you. I went on the first boss in the underrot to show your our burst, because you know, most of you live in that delusional world where it is not possible to burst past 15k. I am sure most of you even don't have enough APM to cast ES immediately after it was refreshed by your talent and you overcap maelstrom.

One more thing, before some of you start screaming that it was made on HC and I had the 15% dmg buff. You're comparing our DPS to mages, who has perm 10% dmg buff due to Arcane Intellect. So you can just reduce that dmg by 5% if you can do it properly by your own of course. In this pull the highest dps I had was around 36k.


https://imgur.com/a/1IleooA

I won't post anymore in this Topic. You, mindless mass know better anyway. And let's focus on the numbers because you can't be rank1 on all bosses by using not optimal builds an stats. Instead of focusing on the gameplay ascpect of the spec, which is the real problem of the Elemental Shaman.

Did...Did you just que for a heroic in full mythic gear pop hero have the 15% random hc buff on a fight that lasted 23 seconds and still only manage to do 23k ? and called others a mindless mass?

[Socialhealer]

FS on CD is not a bad thing. In Legion on BG you would find yourself running around and only spamming FS. If you want to play a dot class pick shadow or affli.

if you want to spew bullshit, post like this guy.

FS on cooldown is fucking awful and only complete fucking idiots would think otherwise(im pointing at the class designers here, the useless sack of shit they are)

[kheath812]

the aoe damage of elemental is total shit. we have to ramp up to 60 maelstrom with a pitiful worse-than-disc-priest-dps chain lightning, and then the earthquake hits like a wet noodle, meanwhile melee have on demand low cd burst aoe and havoc dh are bursting for 50-60k on large trash pulls consistently. this game is as busted as its ever been since vanilla class balance wise.

anyone saying were fine is flat out just wrong.

[Straga21]

DPS in which situation? Some specs are extremely bursty + Warmode talents dont matter in raids.

Simcraft wise my 345 rogue sims at <12k. He can burst MUCH higher, especially in warmode (300k hp mobs with 25k dps).

So your dps numbers are pointless unless you tell us where you pull those numbers, how long the fight is etc

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Thats the overgeared m0 situation. Outside of burst their dps is extremely low so when people start doing high keys adds will live much longer. And having Earth elemental for big pulls is very strong utility now. Tanks are somewhat pretty fragile in BfA.

never said anything about warmode talents. but yeah once the adds get some hp our burst wont just delete them but im still pretty sure elemental aoe still wont be anywhere close . and earth elemental is really situational cause it has the habbit of pulling everything you dont want and in higher keys will get vaporized in 5 seconds by the adds and even if not bosses wont be dying in a minute either in higher keys so the lack of shaman mobility will once again make you subpar to a whole lot of other classes

[Nyel]

the aoe damage of elemental is total shit. we have to ramp up to 60 maelstrom with a pitiful worse-than-disc-priest-dps chain lightning, and then the earthquake hits like a wet noodle, meanwhile melee have on demand low cd burst aoe and havoc dh are bursting for 50-60k on large trash pulls consistently. this game is as busted as its ever been since vanilla class balance wise.

anyone saying were fine is flat out just wrong.

The more I play with it the more I think Maelstorm is the problem. Ele was so much better with just Mana as a resource and CDs on skills. They could just turn Aftershock into "25% chance to not trigger a CD" and we would almost be the same just as a possible Ele-Mana-spec.

[jimmyolsen]

if you want to spew bullshit, post like this guy.

FS on cooldown is fucking awful and only complete fucking idiots would think otherwise(im pointing at the class designers here, the useless sack of shit they are)

Flame Shock on cooldown is not inherently awful. Flame Shock on cooldown while it's additionally necessary to have Flame Shock on your Lava Burst target is the problem. While it's not as bad as WoD where Earth Shock and Flame Shock shared a cooldown, it's still a significant hindrance to common raid mechanics.

Early in beta, they removed the interaction between the Lava Burst Autocrit and Flame Shock. It worked beautifully as you could switch to a priority target and immediately Lava Burst with the auto-crit rather than have to burn a GCD using Flame Shock first. Having to Flame shock a priority add that's going to die in 5 seconds anyway is a significant problem.

As a whole Ele has a lot of issues, but it could be alleviated somewhat with some number tuning:

(1) There's not enough baseline mastery or haste to generate maelstrom consistently. This makes getting Earth Shocks and Earthquakes feel incredibly slow. Increasing our baseline mastery puts us closer to the hard cap on mastery, but it also smooths our damage considerably. It also would increase the value of Elemental Blast as a double buff would be more consistent and Unlimited Power/High Voltage.

(2) Frost Shock, Lava Burst, and Lightning Bolt need 5-10% higher multipliers. Icefury needs a 10-15% buff. Frost shock is a valuable tool in our arsenal now that it doesn't require maelstrom and hits almost as hard as a non-overloaded Lightning Bolt. That gives us a good spammable spell while moving and for switching to priority targets. Icefury doesn't hit hard enough to be viable right now, but bringing that in line with PE would at least create options.

(3) Put Earthquake on Master of the Elements

As for a rework:

(1) Make Echo of the Elements baseline for Elemental and replace that talent with something that either spreads Flame Shock (similar to Path of Flame in Legion) or removes the cooldown.

(2) Either buff the hell out of Spirit Wolf's speed boost to compensate for the silencing effect, or replace it with Gust of Wind.

(3) Make Earth Rage cleave so it's an interesting AoE talent since nothing else in that row is (unless you count the PE/SET combo)

[DeusX]

Playing Ele, as we speak, in Uldir normal and the spec feels so boring and completely un-engaging compared to Legion. It's awful, sorry.
And the damage is shit compared to other classes, really.

[reauxmont]

Playing Ele, as we speak, in Uldir normal and the spec feels so boring and completely un-engaging compared to Legion. It's awful, sorry.
And the damage is shit compared to other classes, really.

Is it? I just looked at the overall DPS statistics from Uldir. Based on the constant conplaining here, memes on Reddit, discord channels being renamed to "benchmental" or something, I was expecting the spec to be last with at least 15% less DPS than any other spec in the game. Turns out it's apparently very close to enhancement and there are still 8 specs worse than it!

[Socialhealer]

Is it? I just looked at the overall DPS statistics from Uldir. Based on the constant conplaining here, memes on Reddit, discord channels being renamed to "benchmental" or something, I was expecting the spec to be last with at least 15% less DPS than any other spec in the game. Turns out it's apparently very close to enhancement and there are still 8 specs worse than it!

don't worry the more the mechanics get tougher on mythic, the more movement and survival required the worse elemental will get.

[SinR]

Is it? I just looked at the overall DPS statistics from Uldir. Based on the constant conplaining here, memes on Reddit, discord channels being renamed to "benchmental" or something, I was expecting the spec to be last with at least 15% less DPS than any other spec in the game. Turns out it's apparently very close to enhancement and there are still 8 specs worse than it!

The thing is, from what I've seen around and about, Elemental doesn't bring anything that a Mage on equal footing (gear ans skill) can't bring better.

[micwini]

There is no opinions here. You can easily get facts and data about classes that show that some specs are just flat out worse than others. Sure, you might LIKE a spec, but that doesn't make the spec better number wise.

[unbound]

Hey everyone. To start, I know there are issues and things that could be fixed about the class. I'm not denying that. This is more about the actual damage output/overall feel we have.

I don't want new players or returning players to get pushed away from a fun class because of all the negativity that it gets. As someone who played Shaman for years I get that we need things changed and the class mechanics/feel as a whole need work. Honestly though, I feel like ele scales pretty well with gear if not really well. I'm having no problem's keeping up and the class still feels fun to play. I know a class shouldn't start to work once you hit some mythic gear, but it's better than not working at all.

I think a lot of the initial negativity were people jumping on the shaman sucks bandwagon or players with no gear saying how horrible it is. While leveling and trying to kill mobs as a fresh 120 it was tough. I just hit 327 ilv (nothing to brag about at all) and can feel a big difference with some decent gear on. I know some people are having different experiences but don't push shaman away just because you aren't top tier dps. Get some gear on you and get back out there. For those who keep saying Shaman is utter trash I guess look at the silver lining. If we're rock bottom, the only way to go is up! Let me know what you think!

Elemental Shaman isn't garbage and can do pretty good damage. The real problem is in comparison to how it worked in Legion. It is a substantial downgrade in flow with you having to make choices in talent tree now that still don't even get you back to the quality and richness of play that existed in Legion. The timer on flame shock is kind of unforgivable (at least make it reset when the existing mob with flame shock dies).

Additionally, the secondary problem with elemental shaman is that turrent casters are, overall, in a bad place at the moment. Blizz completely ignored the evidence in beta and even the evidence in pre-patch that only dot/movement casters (Aff Lock and BM Hunter) were the only competitive non-melee casters. The game is very movement heavy at this point (unless you outgear the instance), but with elemental shaman (more than any other turret caster) got moved to be even more immobile to be effective.

I applaud Blizz for trying to make the game more engaging with the mechanics, but their class designers really have their heads where the sun don't shine in keeping up with the overall direction of the game.

[elcapone]

Elemental Shaman isn't garbage and can do pretty good damage. The real problem is in comparison to how it worked in Legion. It is a substantial downgrade in flow with you having to make choices in talent tree now that still don't even get you back to the quality and richness of play that existed in Legion. The timer on flame shock is kind of unforgivable (at least make it reset when the existing mob with flame shock dies).

Additionally, the secondary problem with elemental shaman is that turrent casters are, overall, in a bad place at the moment. Blizz completely ignored the evidence in beta and even the evidence in pre-patch that only dot/movement casters (Aff Lock and BM Hunter) were the only competitive non-melee casters. The game is very movement heavy at this point (unless you outgear the instance), but with elemental shaman (more than any other turret caster) got moved to be even more immobile to be effective.

I applaud Blizz for trying to make the game more engaging with the mechanics, but their class designers really have their heads where the sun don't shine in keeping up with the overall direction of the game.

I swapped to BM for bfa had no idea about the movement heavy impact until now. yeah direction looks pretty bad on this first raid tier.

[shammypie]

I swapped to BM for bfa had no idea about the movement heavy impact until now. yeah direction looks pretty bad on this first raid tier.

there is a reason why people prefer vanilla. class designers have 0 clue how to design a class based on dungeons/raids/pvp. All they have are benchmarks for cc and model based designing. It's all theory and 0 practice. It's why every new dps class has been melee because all the above doesn't apply to them as everything is instant cast. Furthermore they don't know whether melee should do more damage because you lose uptime moving away from the boss or range because interrupting casts to move stops dps. So they make them equal (and still play favorite of course) and the winners are the people with an easy simple kit that doesn't require that much uptime. Melee with the most mobility aka uptime win and ranged who can cast while moving win. Everyone looks ok-ish on paper then tanks hard when actually put in a raid. They then use beta to figure out which knobs to tweak and get as close as they can while making minimal changes. It's purely trial and error with no actual understanding.

[BiggestNoob]

Checking warcraft logs right now, 6 specs are below Ele. Two lock specs, two mage specs, shadow and feral. So that really means that Ele is ahead shadow and feral and as others have stated, it will just be worse in mythic. This was all bosses on heroic by the way.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#

Always look at 95% when looking at balance. Shadow, Fire, and Demonology are all bad right now. A lot of others are underrepresented because the best players are playing a better spec. Elemental is definitely among the worst specs in the game and a good ways behind the average, with some classes being quite OP right now.

In normal Ele is closer to the average, which means on fights where lust, CDs, and pots dominate the duration of the fight, it's closer to competitive, and longer fights or with more movement and mechanics, it drops off heavily.

On AoE, it's only about average, which means it excels at nothing. It's one of the least mobile casters (if not *the* least), its single target is among the worst of all specs, and its AoE is only about average.

We'll see if Blizzard does a tuning pass before mythic.