Saved raiders with personal loot?

[Deleted]

Hi,
Now that all raiding is personal loot. Does it matter if you have 5 saved people in a normal/heroic raid?

I know we get less loot, but on the other hand the saved raiders allready had their chance for loot. So over all it will not hurt the guild gear wise.

I am asking because we are an casual guild and some of our raiders want to pug HC, but we might get 1-2 bosses down on HC this week. Problem is we raid sunday and have some people who cant pug monday and wednesday. So they want to pug 2-3 bosses before our own raid if we dont manage to kill them sunday night.

[Unforgivenn]

Actually, yes, its a problem. Because its less loot for your guild, which could help.

Like, if the raid size normally would drop 6 items, it will now drop 5.

If your raid member that pugged got a loot, then in this case he helped your raid. But if not, well, it was a stolen loot for your raid then (because it went to a pug)


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[glowpipe]

We have the same problem with a few of our raiders. They wanna pug pug pug first, but still come to our raids. The problem with this is the fact that if they get loot they don't need. They give it to the pug, instead of the guild. I can't do jack shit about it really. But it is a problem and i am not liking it.

[Svisalith]

Actually, yes, its a problem. Because its less loot for your guild, which could help.

How so? Specifically, why is it less loot?

Like, if the raid size normally would drop 6 items, it will now drop 5.

5 in the guild run, 1 more that your guildies got from their kill in the PUG group. It's still 6 items of loot in the guild.

We have the same problem with a few of our raiders. They wanna pug pug pug first, but still come to our raids. The problem with this is the fact that if they get loot they don't need. They give it to the pug, instead of the guild. I can't do jack shit about it really. But it is a problem and i am not liking it.

That effect is equally countered by the fact that PUG's give your guildies their unwanted loot as well. The final amount of loot per player in the guild stays roughly the same.

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I don't see a solid argument in this thread for the loot lockouts hurting the raid and these opinions seem unfairly strong+negative given the lack of reasoned data backing them.

You must factor in, as well, that even if it had quantified negative effects it wouldn't be strictly a bad thing. Pugging bosses allows people to get more experience and practice with tactics, bonus roll the most valuable boss multiple times etc; that actually helps the raid. Almost every player in WoW would benefit more from playing smarter than they would from little gear bumps.

[Marrilaife]

I don't think it matters, it's as if these people weren't there, they can't get loot, can't get loot traded to, there will be less loot but also distributed across fewer people. It should average the same amount.

If these people decide to rerun a boss they're saved to and they actually positively contribute to the raid (they aren't a dead weight but actually help kill a boss), I'd say you should welcome it. There are some bosses that are still easier with slightly bigger raid sizes or with extra healers added. So excluding the saved people might actually make it harder to kill. Pugging loot eligible people for their spots instead of letting the "saveds" come means the loot will indeed end outside of the guild, at least a part of it. Not worth it imo, unless you're missing someone crucial like a tank.

[Relapses]

We have the same problem with a few of our raiders. They wanna pug pug pug first, but still come to our raids. The problem with this is the fact that if they get loot they don't need. They give it to the pug, instead of the guild. I can't do jack shit about it really. But it is a problem and i am not liking it.

Don't bring them to the raid...? I mean, if they really value the guild then they should understand that keeping loot within the guild is preferrable. Ultimately you can't stop people from PuGing outside of the guild but you can certainly lessen the impact by setting ground rules and recruiting around them.

[Unforgivenn]

5 in the guild run, 1 in the pug run to your guildies that ran it. It's still 6 items of loot in the guild.





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If the guy get an loot, otherwise its 1 less for guild



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[Svisalith]

If thw guy gwt an loot, otherwise its 1 less for guild

The loot chance doesn't drop just because he was in a different group. When you kill a boss, per character and lock you create an X% chance to get a loot drop from the corpse.

There's some complicated hidden guarantees (bad luck / good luck protection for the overall boss kill) in there that may make it technically more beneficial to run very specific loot-eligible group sizes but few people do that; i haven't seen anybody math out the numbers since the drop rate buff in early BFA. For example, a 5-man dungeon boss with everyone (or perhaps even 4 people now) loot eligible will always drop at least 1 item.

[Thelxi]

it's fair to ask them to not pug but really you should let them do what they want and be grateful they show even show up for the guild raid with no loot. The nice thing about the new loot system and cross-realm availability is that raiders can still be loyal to their more casual guilds while pushing themselves in pugs beyond what the guild could do.

[Marrilaife]

If the guy get an loot, otherwise its 1 less for guild

The loot amount isn't fixed in flex size, it scales. If it was always 6 items everyone would run 10 man and get showered in loot? Doesn't work this way.

Since you're casual let them pug, but be aware they may get sniped from your group.

If someone is a competitive player, they will notice when they can go higher, and leave no matter what. People stay in guilds because they already found one fitting their skill cap, or they're very attached to the atmosphere (not everyone has a competitive mindset, some players just want some laid back chill environment).

[NihilSustinet]

Hi,
Now that all raiding is personal loot. Does it matter if you have 5 saved people in a normal/heroic raid?

I know we get less loot, but on the other hand the saved raiders allready had their chance for loot. So over all it will not hurt the guild gear wise.

I am asking because we are an casual guild and some of our raiders want to pug HC, but we might get 1-2 bosses down on HC this week. Problem is we raid sunday and have some people who cant pug monday and wednesday. So they want to pug 2-3 bosses before our own raid if we dont manage to kill them sunday night.

not really, because they wont get loot if the loot would have gone to them, but they are pugs anyway, so you were giving up that loot to a pug either way, so it really makes no difference. though, the pug may potentially have not needed the loot and been able to trade it to someone in your guild, in which case it would hurt you.

[GringoD]

We have the same problem with a few of our raiders. They wanna pug pug pug first, but still come to our raids. The problem with this is the fact that if they get loot they don't need. They give it to the pug, instead of the guild. I can't do jack shit about it really. But it is a problem and i am not liking it.

I strongly discourage pugging if the player can make it to my raids anyway. There's nothing more you can do. Punishing them in any way doesn't seem reasonable.

[Deleted]

That player's loot doesn't affect you. You aren't getting less loot.

Each player has same chance to get loot regardless of group size and saved players. Amount of loot you'll get will be the same as if those players weren't there. They aren't eligible for trade, so absolutely nothing changes.

[kamuimac]

Hi,
Now that all raiding is personal loot. Does it matter if you have 5 saved people in a normal/heroic raid?

I know we get less loot, but on the other hand the saved raiders allready had their chance for loot. So over all it will not hurt the guild gear wise.

I am asking because we are an casual guild and some of our raiders want to pug HC, but we might get 1-2 bosses down on HC this week. Problem is we raid sunday and have some people who cant pug monday and wednesday. So they want to pug 2-3 bosses before our own raid if we dont manage to kill them sunday night.

doesnt matter . all loot is now personal so others should stop giving any fucks what other people get.

only people pissed about it are those who want to abuse others for their loot .

[AwkwardSquirtle]

doesnt matter . all loot is now personal so others should stop giving any fucks what other people get.

only people pissed about it are those who want to abuse others for their loot .

Unless of course you view guild raiding as a team effort to kill bosses rather than a collection of solo efforts to get gear. Then the way that your raid members choose to get gear affects everyone.

[Aoyi]

Back in WoD, the personal loot system was made to work like this:

A raid of 10 will drop 2 items. For each person you add to the group, the droprate increases by 20% for an additional item (or 0.2 per person in the raid). When you hit 15 people, it becomes a guaranteed 3, 20 becomes 4, 25 becomes 5. etc. That way, there is not really a right number of raiders when considering loot. Every raid size is treated equally for that. Sure, hitting those break points of 5 make it a guarantee for the next amount, but having 14 people still means there's an 80% chance that 3rd will drop.

Now this only works for people who are not saved. If they are saved, they are not factored in to the loot equation, but they do factor in to mob/boss scaling. So its best that those joining are not saved.

[Deleted]

Now this only works for people who are not saved. If they are saved, they are not factored in to the loot equation, but they do factor in to mob/boss scaling. So its best that those joining are not saved.

Your last sentence doesn't make sense. They do factor into mob scaling, but they also contribute their share of dps/hps. So it doesn't make any difference if scaling is correctly done. If bringing in more people results in harder encounter, that's a scaling issue, not issue of players being saved to those bosses.

[Gaidax]

That player's loot doesn't affect you. You aren't getting less loot.

Technically this is incorrect because if player did not need or want loot he got in the pug, he could potentially give it to a teammate.

[Aoyi]

Your last sentence doesn't make sense. They do factor into mob scaling, but they also contribute their share of dps/hps. So it doesn't make any difference if scaling is correctly done. If bringing in more people results in harder encounter, that's a scaling issue, not issue of players being saved to those bosses.

This topic is about personal loot and the effect of adding people who are saved. What I said was that the personal loot chances are not increased by adding saved people to your raid, but having more people in the raid causes mob/boss health and damage to increase. You can view this in game right now. Stand at a boss. Invite someone to the raid. Watch the boss health increase. That's how the scaling works and my previous post details how personal loot scaling works.

[Deleted]

Technically this is incorrect because if player did not need or want loot he got in the pug, he could potentially give it to a teammate.

Which doesn't change anything. Its the same as if that player wasn't in raid. So bringing that player to raid neither gives advantage nor disadvantage.

- - - Updated - - -

This topic is about personal loot and the effect of adding people who are saved. What I said was that the personal loot chances are not increased by adding saved people to your raid, but having more people in the raid causes mob/boss health and damage to increase. You can view this in game right now. Stand at a boss. Invite someone to the raid. Watch the boss health increase. That's how the scaling works and my previous post details how personal loot scaling works.

Are you implying that person isn't participating in kill? Being saved has no relevance to difficulty.