6 years of vanilla talent system vs 8 years of current talent system

[kenoathcarn]

Yeah, those good talents became baked into the base kit. we went over this several times over the past decade+

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splitting hairs and shifting goalposts now eh?

i didnt shift goalposts you're still arguing that forcing someone not to be able to make bad builds is good for the game, i made the point that a base toolkit is just that. basic. where we differ is just opinion, you would like it nearly impossible for someone to be unable to tank if he selects the role of tank, i simply think this is wrong and unhealthy for the game, the people that this is designed around aren't the players who stick around playing for years at a time and simply ruins it for the people who are still left.

the game should encourage you to improve and have something to work towards, if you can just log in, put nearly 0 effort in and still succeed then this is a problem.

Let me ask you this, If you were some 15 year old playing BFA would you be encouraged to spend your time playing the game the same way a 15 year old lost his life back in vanilla/tbc/wotlk? I can't see the answer to this being anything but a resounding NO.

[rohoz]

i didnt shift goalposts you're still arguing that forcing someone not to be able to make bad builds is good for the game, i made the point that a base toolkit is just that. basic. where we differ is just opinion, you would like it nearly impossible for someone to be unable to tank if he selects the role of tank, i simply think this is wrong and unhealthy for the game, the people that this is designed around aren't the players who stick around playing for years at a time and simply ruins it for the people who are still left.

the game should encourage you to improve and have something to work towards, if you can just log in, put nearly 0 effort in and still succeed then this is a problem.

Let me ask you this, If you were some 15 year old playing BFA would you be encouraged to spend your time playing the game the same way a 15 year old lost his life back in vanilla/tbc/wotlk? I can't see the answer to this being anything but a resounding NO.

ah, one of those nostalgia dudes. gotcha.

[kenoathcarn]

ah, one of those nostalgia dudes. gotcha.

yeah bro nostalgia, facepalm, witty comeback.

[Tonkaden]

No. The old Talent System was boring and no Choice at all

What Blizzard failed to do was introducing new Talents with Legion/BFA

There still isn’t choice. Don’t kid yourself lol. The only system that you can really have some semblance of choice is one like SWG had pre-cu.

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Only flaw of the old system was lack of easy respeccing. Respeccing at will is paramount to playing the entire game, i.e. dungeons/raids/PvP.
The new talent system is as boring as it gets, but at least you can respec. Of course Blizz are idiots and they came with anti-player fun shit like spec legendaries locking you in a spec, or AP, again locking in a spec for months.

There really wasn’t a reason to respec though. The only times you would really respec would be PvE to PvP and Vice versa.

[Aschen]

yeah okay

remember in sunwell when mages were dropped because they didn't do any damage compared to warlocks/hunters?
That wasn't balance, that was pity/cleric spots, lol.

Good luck doing M'uru without a couple of mages spellstealing. The world first had 3 mages present. Try again.

[LionSinMaikeru]

No. The old Talent System was boring and no Choice at all

Lol wrong.

But using your argument, the new system is so much better? XD

[Uoyredrum]

Speaking from experience, we benched our mages since he couldn't keep up with the warlocks who were all shadow destro at the point, why have a mage when you could just have more warlocks? If they played fire destro, you couldve added a mage to your comp maybe, but yeah.

Also, some servers didn't kill KJ before wotlk prepatch, so that's not saying much, but who knows?

Obviously mages couldn't keep up with warlocks back then, that didn't make them useless.

And yes our kill was pre-patch, it was the only one that was.

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Your locks must have been dog shit if a mage was keeping up with them.

Good thing I didn't say that or I'd have to agree.

[Wingspan]

I wasn’t that fond of the vanilla talent trees. About half of your choices were just junk that sounded good but wasn’t.

The newer system doesn’t give you the thrill of a new point every level but you don’t waste a lot of time meaningless choices anymore.

[Gungnir]

Speaking from experience, we benched our mages since he couldn't keep up with the warlocks who were all shadow destro at the point, why have a mage when you could just have more warlocks? If they played fire destro, you couldve added a mage to your comp maybe, but yeah.

Also, some servers didn't kill KJ before wotlk prepatch, so that's not saying much, but who knows?

You can just insert the same argument in every tier of raiding in WoW ever.
Why bring ANY class during Throne of Thunder other than Demo warlocks?
Why bring ANY class during HFC other than Arcane mages?

List goes on. Hell, there were LESS DPS disparity between mages and the other DPS during Sunwell than we had during HFC, BRF, ToT/SoO etc..

[Thimagryn]

I was comparing the two. Put the right enchants on. Put the right talents on. If you put one lesser enchant or one wrong talent point, you failed the easiest raid test.

I was saying that those old talents were as interactive as putting enchants on your gear.
.

Yes but you could say that about anything. A person who had a fishing rod equipped would also be called out in raiding, but it doesnt mean professions are a detriment to the game.

Your comparison doesnt work because its a broad generalization that includes such basic feats as forgetting to put on gear or placing talent points after a respec. Thats just being dumb and has nothing to do with how the talent system actually worked.

Theres nothing specific to the old talent system with the flaws you point out.

[shaunika123]

still only one cookie cutter for PvE .. so go on list all the things which were viable but not top optimized ... this thread isn't about how many options we have.. i could say the same about current talents .. u could go 1,1,1,1,1,1 or 1,2,1,1,1 or 1,2,2,1,1 etc etc ..

except there wasnt?

there was at least 3 perfectly viable builds for pve depending on your gear seal fate daggers (either with or without vigor) combat and combat daggers

all of these were played at the highest level of raiding

hell even one hemo rogue was actually a dps increase for the raid if there were enough physical dmg dealers.

[Craaazyyy]

I'd love the old system back. The new system does have some advantages like how easy it is to switch to different setups, but the old system allowed for a lot more customization and experimentation. I'd also like to add that anyone who says the old system usually only had 1 viable build per spec has no idea what they're talking about. There was a lot of choice for most classes and specs and you could make some really weird hybrid specs that were very strong in niche situations. That doesn't exist anymore.

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1. It was never that bad in BC

2. Any spec that had significantly lower DPS back then usually brought some form of powerful utility to make up for it (arms warriors, survival hunters (or was it marks?), shadow priests, fire mages, etc.). It was balanced just not in the same way. I should point out that BFA is probably the least balanced expansion in terms of numbers anyway, especially for things like azerite traits.

also a lot of those classes actually could do good damage if you werent shit at the game

spriest was actually really good in hyjal and after

[sam86]

Boomkin

screw tank part, as someone who played boomkin in wrath and in mop and legion, f8ck what blizz did
boomkin was best and most interesting to me when u had to solar/lunar power swap all time and check that unique resource that literally nothing like it before or since, why the f8ck did blizz kill that
boomkin was alt not my main, but i focused a lot in late wrath with my friends in 10 men raiding with my druid, be is tree, bear, boomkin (not cat, their rotation was nightmare itself in wrath), and i enjoyed every part of it
blizz did f8ck healers hard in legion in compare to wrath, since i didn't heal seriously from wrath to legion can't really comment, except i remember that monk/druid healing was still amazing in MoP (and i did even mythic soo on druid), legion i saw a very f8cked healing, very amazing stunning visuals, but healing itself was sh8t

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also a lot of those classes actually could do good damage if you werent shit at the game

spriest was actually really good in hyjal and after

spriest were the battery of raids, as main healer in TBC and Wrath, during TBC specially i loved spriests, and if i didn't enjoy healing that much i'd go shadow myself (i did raid few times as shadow, but was forced to)
i didn't care much about spriest dps, their utility were probably 2nd to none in raiding, u get someone who has constant small heal, and mana battery that i desperately need
not to forget he amplified warlock dmg a lot, and i was team warlock in warlock vs mage eternal battle (since i was warlock in vanilla, so warlocks have softer spot for me over mages)

[Nayami]

Definitely prefer the current talent system since we can actually change talents/builds pretty easily (Just buy over a 100 Tomes!). Having said that, even though quite a few specs have different talent setups/builds, there's always that one build that's just far ahead, which is unfortunate since we still end up with cookie-cutter builds regardless.

Things would definitely be more interesting if our azerite traits were more impactful. Some traits could make other talents a better pick when you would usually pick the 'best one' on that row, like Legiondaries for some specs basically.

[Uoyredrum]

also a lot of those classes actually could do good damage if you werent shit at the game

spriest was actually really good in hyjal and after

Locks, Fury Warriors, Rogues and BM Hunters did top DPS at around 2500-3000~ avg depending on fight (and gear obv.)

Spriests, Fire Mages, Arms Warriors, SV Hunters, etc. usually did around 1800-2100 DPS per fight (again depending on fight and gear).

There was a clear gap between the top DPS specs and the "utility" specs but the gap existed because the utility specs brought utility and extra damage for the whole raid. Spriests weren't competitive with the top DPS specs but they were completely necessary to have. Not you but a lot of other people here like rohoz don't seem to understand that.

[Mchamster]

also a lot of those classes actually could do good damage if you werent shit at the game

spriest was actually really good in hyjal and after

During sunwell we had one, sometimes two shadow priests and they usually did about half the damage the hunters and warlocks did. They were mostly there for the replenishment gains. Mana batteries. Same with ret paladins. We had one and only ever one for seals. As a holy paladin we were responsible for applying the seals the ret didn't use.

[vsb]

I'd like a mix of both. Passive talents were awesome, they gave you persistent character power increase. It would be especially relevant now, with scaling, when character is not progressing anymore, more like degrading. Now active talents in old system were not that fun and current talent system is much better. Legion nailed it with artifacts moving passive talent system there. Unfortunately we lost it. May be they could reinvent it in the later expansions. Something like path of titans!

My main objection to current talent system is balance. I wish that every tier would be an easy choice according to your playstyle. You want aoe? Obviously you should choose that. You want ST? Obviously you should choose that. You want consistent cleave? You should choose that. You want active ability? Here you go. You want proc? Here you go. You want less powerful but easy to play passive ability? Here you go. No need to simcraft anything, just use common sense. It doesn't work like that now. Often AOE talents are best ST talents as well. Sometimes easy to play passive talents are better than hard to play active talents. So many talents are just dead.

[Craaazyyy]

Locks, Fury Warriors, Rogues and BM Hunters did top DPS at around 2500-3000~ avg depending on fight (and gear obv.)

Spriests, Fire Mages, Arms Warriors, SV Hunters, etc. usually did around 1800-2100 DPS per fight (again depending on fight and gear).

There was a clear gap between the top DPS specs and the "utility" specs but the gap existed because the utility specs brought utility and extra damage for the whole raid. Spriests weren't competitive with the top DPS specs but they were completely necessary to have. Not you but a lot of other people here like rohoz don't seem to understand that.

thats just not true.. as i said, good spriest were doing good damage..

[Thunderball]

Locks, Fury Warriors, Rogues and BM Hunters did top DPS at around 2500-3000~ avg depending on fight (and gear obv.)

Spriests, Fire Mages, Arms Warriors, SV Hunters, etc. usually did around 1800-2100 DPS per fight (again depending on fight and gear).

There was a clear gap between the top DPS specs and the "utility" specs but the gap existed because the utility specs brought utility and extra damage for the whole raid. Spriests weren't competitive with the top DPS specs but they were completely necessary to have. Not you but a lot of other people here like rohoz don't seem to understand that.

SPriest were a classic case of a spec ruined by 1) bad scaling 2) OP itemization early on. It was easily top dps in Karazhan if you had the shadoweave set which went to dead last come Sunwell. Also, I've never seen a SP pull 1800 even on Brut.

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thats just not true.. as i said, good spriest were doing good damage..

They werent.

[Craaazyyy]

SPriest were a classic case of a spec ruined by 1) bad scaling 2) OP itemization early on. It was easily top dps in Karazhan if you had the shadoweave set which went to dead last come Sunwell. Also, I've never seen a SP pull 1800 even on Brut.

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They werent.

you know muqq? he was

so if he was doing good damage, then spriest were able to do good damage

like obviously they were behind other classes, especially on some bosses, but on others they were pretty high, but not like they were even 30% behind