[Spoilers] Sylvanas and the Horde in 8.1

[Dagoth Ur]

I'd actually be on board for Saurfang gathering the Dragonmaw and Frostwolves, pulling a Doomhammer and then carrying on the war with the Alliance anyway.

I consider this one of the few ways to salvage this hot mess.

It'd be nice to relive similar scenario to the one in which Doomhammer found himself in after Blackhand's death and it'd also make sense that Alliance doesn't want to forgive Horde even after Sylvanas is deposed. We fight because we must and all that jam.

[Jastall]

The lack of agency is a good part of it, but I can't chalk it up to more than incompetence on many fronts, just because as you bring up Blizzard have shown they can write this kind of character. Whether intentional or not, or if he was meant to be a villain or not, Garrosh in say, Heart of War or The Shattering is a legitimately compelling character. I reread Hellscream the other day and that also makes him a genuinely good protagonist and made me annoyed that WoD was what it was and that he was so unceremoniously killed off therein.

Saurfang and Sylvanas' dynamic in A Good War is enjoyable, despite being shackled to a ridiculous story and carrying the weight around its neck that is Before the Storm. I don't know if it's their company structure that means all the book writers that aren't Golden are sectioned off and unable to write the characters when in the game, or if it's just that they're afraid of committing to one angle for fear of player backlash, but the fact that they can write solid pulp fantasy, but choose not to annoys me much more than if they were just incompetent or if they'd written the story off as an afterthought like the LoL guys have.

It's a consequence of having multiple writers with no strong direction, I'd wager. Same reason that Stonetalon!Garrosh was a completely different character from every other incarnations of him even during Cataclysm. We know how the writing process goes; the creative directors decide "this happens! and this! and that!", mostly by looking at what serves the gameplay and/or hype first. Then the burden of actually writing the story and making it work is thrust upon the lower caste of writers who, bless them, probably try to deliver something palatable but are shackled by the fact that they must follow the imposed outline and can only affect their own corners of the world.

[Zulkhan]

Supporting Sylvanas is an insult to intellectual honesty. I don't see anything wrong with Saurfang's revolution so long as he clears his head first and knows exactly what he hopes to accomplish.

Saurfang's "revolution" is a complete joke. What is its point anyway? The fact that Sylvanas started the war? The burning of Teldrassil? The "honorless travesty" of the Undercity?

The most solid reason to desire Sylvanas gone is because she started this war. But not only said revolution ain't necessarily going to solve the issue (either because the Horde has gone too far already or because the Alliance is going to prey on the new, idiotic fuck up within the Horde for good, as it actually should be) it also looks fairly hilarious when this is starting from someone who supported said war and was convinced to jump on board with nothing but convincing arguments. The burning of Teldrassil was Sylvanas' worst moment but the whole point of the Old Soldier cinematic was Saurfang kind of getting over it. Then there is Lordaeron, where a few reasons to legitimately spit on Sylvanas' face were indeed present but in the end it's the supposed "honorless travesty" regarding the way Sylvanas intended to win the battle that served as supposed "breaking point", which is honestly ridiculous.

And now we have the Alliance invasion of Zuldazar, causing untold damage to the kingdom and guaranteed to fill the Zandalari with nothing but wrath and thirst for vengeance on the Alliance, another thing this great "revolution" ain't going to fix in any shape or form, in fact it would be a quite anti-climatic event. On top of that, even the circumstances leading to Saurfang killing Sylvanas' subjects are questionable and do little to mark him as the guy I'm supposed to "root for" against Sylvanas. And if this comes from someone who doesn't genuinely gives a shit whether Sylvanas is going to die or not, then it means something isn't really working in this shitty MoP rehash.

[KrakHed]

Saurfang's "revolution" is a complete joke. What is its point anyway? The fact that Sylvanas started the war? The burning of Teldrassil? The "honorless travesty" of the Undercity?

The fact that Sylvanas will continue as she's been doing and it's only going to get worse. We don't even know what his revolution will be, as he sends you and Zekhan back to the Horde without any secret instructions or anything. But if the Horde keeps following Sylvanas, whatever victory they achieve will be a hideous joke. Maybe Saurfang needs to rethink his honor a bit, but he's not wrong for thinking Sylvanas has, and will go, too far.

I'd actually be on board for Saurfang gathering the Dragonmaw and Frostwolves, pulling a Doomhammer and then carrying on the war with the Alliance anyway.

Sylvanas should kill Baine first though. You know, to show evil she is and everything.

Anything that Doomhammer did is okay in my book. Plus, the Dragonmaw do need their story straightened out, considering nobody really has a clue what's going on with them at the moment.

Continuing the war would be a good way to make him palatable.

Well, I think Saurfang might realize he's going to have fight the war anyway. He probably knows his role in things isn't going to just magically disappear, and the Alliance isn't going to be so forgiving. But at the same time, he doesn't want to do things Sylvanas's way, and he's not asking anyone to follow him since he wants to do what he's doing alone. I've said it before, but I really do want to see him retread the path of the Old Horde. Perhaps not in the same way, having certain things he's not so eager to repeat.

However, one thing I'd love to see, both for irony and getting more people on board with how he thinks things should be done, is him repeating the invasion of Quel'thelas and saving the Blood Elves from the Alliance.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, I think Saurfang might realize he's going to have fight the war anyway. He probably knows his role in things isn't going to just magically disappear, and the Alliance isn't going to be so forgiving. But at the same time, he doesn't want to do things Sylvanas's way, and he's not asking anyone to follow him since he wants to do what he's doing alone. I've said it before, but I really do want to see him retread the path of the Old Horde. Perhaps not in the same way, having certain things he's not so eager to repeat.

However, one thing I'd love to see, both for irony and getting more people on board with how he thinks things should be done, is him repeating the invasion of Quel'thelas and saving the Blood Elves from the Alliance.

I think him gathering the leftover orc clans and those who at some point lost favour with the Horde would be a good path for him and serve as proxies for his character development. Dragonmaw for his time with the Old Horde, Frostwolves with Thrall, etc. Bring him to a point where he's willing to be tough, without Sylvanas' baggage and is still ready to wage the war.

But for the latter point, I have mixed thoughts. There's few stories left to go for Sylvanas, but it'd be criminal for her not to be central to another invasion of Quel'thalas, be it to show how far she's fallen when she leaves the blood elves to prioritize elsewhere or to have her successfully defend them in death when she couldn't in life. I guess if we're going full Snidely Whiplash with Sylv, she can ditch the blood elves and Saurfang, who's Horde once razed Quel'thalas, can show up to help them.

[KrakHed]

I think him gathering the leftover orc clans and those who at some point lost favour with the Horde would be a good path for him and serve as proxies for his character development. Dragonmaw for his time with the Old Horde, Frostwolves with Thrall, etc. Bring him to a point where he's willing to be tough, without Sylvanas' baggage and is still ready to wage the war.

But for the latter point, I have mixed thoughts. There's few stories left to go for Sylvanas, but it'd be criminal for her not to be central to another invasion of Quel'thalas, be it to show how far she's fallen when she leaves the blood elves to prioritize elsewhere or to have her successfully defend them in death when she couldn't in life. I guess if we're going full Snidely Whiplash with Sylv, she can ditch the blood elves and Saurfang, who's Horde once razed Quel'thalas, can show up to help them.

Well, I feel there's two necessary things Saurfang helping Silvermoon could show, regardless of if Sylvanas is there or not. It'd show that he really does consider them part of the Horde that he hopes to save.

And yes, that was my entire idea behind retreading the path of the Old Horde with the fallen Clans. Blackrocks, Dragonmaw, Frostwolves, and whatever. He might even find them under attack by Alliance forces and work through his issues through what he has to do to save them, work out his where he sees the proper balance between honor and practicality, but still feel he's right for refusing to keep working for Sylvanas.

Maybe he could work with Sylvanas later, for a worthy enough cause, but I don't want him to ever submit to her.

[Super Dickmann]

Well, I feel there's two necessary things Saurfang helping Silvermoon could show, regardless of if Sylvanas is there or not. It'd show that he really does consider them part of the Horde that he hopes to save.

And yes, that was my entire idea behind retreading the path of the Old Horde with the fallen Clans. Blackrocks, Dragonmaw, Frostwolves, and whatever. He might even find them under attack by Alliance forces and work through his issues through what he has to do to save them, work out his where he sees the proper balance between honor and practicality, but still feel he's right for refusing to keep working for Sylvanas.

Maybe he could work with Sylvanas later, for a worthy enough cause, but I don't want him to ever submit to her.

I don't think working with Sylvanas is on the menu anymore, but I mean more in terms of contrasting their approach and actually giving the non-classic Horde races a reason to back him. If we're going with my second idea, then on one hand you would have Sylvanas, their sworn protector in life and who even bailed them out in death, leaving them and on the other you have Saurfang, with whom they have little ideological in common and who once was part of the Horde that razed their home, coming to save them. If they're to side with him, that would say a lot.

Mind, my preferred version would be Sylvanas actually showing some positive character traits and still defending her home, but that's beside the point. If Saurfang is to be the definitive Horde leader going forward, he needs to, after overcoming or coming to an agreement with or however Sylvanas is sorted out, push the Alliance back to a point where they're negotiating from strength or keep the war going as the new status quo because too much has gone wrong for either side to really drop it.

[KrakHed]

I don't think working with Sylvanas is on the menu anymore.

Not without something they both agree on strongly enough to tolerate one another. Sylvanas want him dead as a traitor now, and he can't stand her. But still, I don't see it working out long term.

However, I think Saurfang's story is going to have to go in a direction that proves the accusations of treason against him are hyperbole.

[Zulkhan]

The fact that Sylvanas will continue as she's been doing and it's only going to get worse. We don't even know what his revolution will be, as he sends you and Zekhan back to the Horde without any secret instructions or anything. But if the Horde keeps following Sylvanas, whatever victory they achieve will be a hideous joke. Maybe Saurfang needs to rethink his honor a bit, but he's not wrong for thinking Sylvanas has, and will go, too far.

Personal opinions alone are an extremely weak motivation to start a revolution however, that's surely not going to rally a force strong enough to somehow overthrow the Warchief. In fact, the premise of this "revolution" ain't stronger than Sylvanas' own justifications for the current war, which effectively makes Saurfang looks like a double retard since he jumped on that shaky war wagon and now has decided to jump on the other equally shaky rebel wagon.

The way the Darkspear Rebellion has unfolded against Garrosh should have taught a few things to people by now, namely that no one's going to rebel until the individual interests and perceived safety of all the allied races of the Horde aren't objectively considered threatened. Instead, Saurfang has been treated almost politely, at least once compared to the way Garrosh tried to outright murder an Horde leader, in secret and far from public eye.

[Deleted]

Not without something they both agree on strongly enough to tolerate one another. Sylvanas want him dead as a traitor now, and he can't stand her. But still, I don't see it working out long term.

However, I think Saurfang's story is going to have to go in a direction that proves the accusations of treason against him are hyperbole.

Just to clarify - she doesn’t want him dead, in the first instance she wants him captured and brought back to the Horde to answer for his treachery. He was still given the warning that if he resisted there would be consequences, but it still shows a willingness from Sylvanas to at least try and bring him back to the Horde (in spite of what he’s done) rather than having him instantly executed on principle alone.

[KrakHed]

Personal opinions alone are an extremely weak motivation to start a revolution however, that's surely not going to rally a force strong enough to somehow overthrow the Warchief. In fact, the premise of this "revolution" ain't stronger than Sylvanas' own justifications for the current war, which effectively makes Saurfang looks like a double retard since he jumped on that shaky war wagon and now has decided to jump on the other equally shaky rebel wagon.

The way the Darkspear Rebellion has unfolded against Garrosh should have taught a few things to people by now, namely that no one's going to rebel until the individual interests and perceived safety of all the allied races of the Horde aren't objectively considered threatened. Instead, Saurfang has been treated almost politely, at least once compared to the way Garrosh tried to outright murder an Horde leader, in secret and far from public eye.

We don't know what kind of revolution Saurfang intends, and so far we see no dialogue where he claims to be starting one. And yes, Saurfang liked war too much and jumped on a war wagon he shouldn't have. And perhaps he doesn't fully understand how bad Sylvanas is. Still, Sylvanas isn't someone we should want to win this war.

Anyhow, Saurfang is on an entirely different continent and operating entirely independently right now. We don't know what his plans are, but it's not like he has any easy way to get an army to Orgrimmar.

Just to clarify - she doesn’t want him dead, in the first instance she wants him captured and brought back to the Horde to answer for his treachery. He was still given the warning that if he resisted there would be consequences, but it still shows a willingness from Sylvanas to at least try and bring him back to the Horde (in spite of what he’s done) rather than having him instantly executed on principle alone.

"Treachery" is hyperbole. She told him to take his time killing Malfurion and left, and he got interrupted before actually coming to a decision. And then he decided he didn't want to go back. He is only treasonous in the sense that he's decided to go off and do his own thing, which no one else shows any objection to besides Sylvanas.

[Draqson]

Sylvanas is the very last interesting character in this game, and seeing her story getting butchered bit by bit is nothing more than frustrating. I'd follow her to the end, and the day the game expects me to kill her, is the day where the game dies for me.

Like seriously, the Lore is nothing but boring "lets go along the line"-konga dance party with less intrigue than ... I cant even think of something less interesting. Yeah, whatever, disappoint me yet again blizzard, I dare you.

[KrakHed]

Sylvanas is the very last interesting character in this game, and seeing her story getting butchered bit by bit is nothing more than frustrating. I'd follow her to the end, and the day the game expects me to kill her, is the day where the game dies for me.

Like seriously, the Lore is nothing but boring "lets go along the line"-konga dance party with less intrigue than ... I cant even think of something less interesting. Yeah, whatever, disappoint me yet again blizzard, I dare you.

Sylvanas is essentially just a manipulative self-centered villain. A very boring character except in how others react to her. Sylvanas wouldn't be interesting if significant portions of the Horde didn't begin to reject her. Without Saurfang, there's nothing to the story besides Sylvanas bullying spineless morons like Baine and running the Horde into the ground to fuel her literally genocidal scheme of killing all humans.

There's a lot of interesting stories which aren't the faction war, and there's lots of people who think the faction war is boring trash. Also, not being downright insane and genocidal isn't always the same as getting along. Sylvanas has been portrayed as insane lately. And a hypocrite too. She's in no place to call out Saurfang on being sentimental.

[Combatbutler]

We don't know what kind of revolution Saurfang intends, and so far we see no dialogue where he claims to be starting one. And yes, Saurfang liked war too much and jumped on a war wagon he shouldn't have. And perhaps he doesn't fully understand how bad Sylvanas is. Still, Sylvanas isn't someone we should want to win this war.

Anyhow, Saurfang is on an entirely different continent and operating entirely independently right now. We don't know what his plans are, but it's not like he has any easy way to get an army to Orgrimmar.

And yet who is going to support his rebellion? As it stands right now he has almost no one backing him, Goblins are fine with it, Talanji wants alliance blood the darkspear under Rokhan are with her, Alliance lifes mean nothing to Lor'themar and the blood elves, the orcs are in full war mode, the forsaken are fully on board, Thalyssra's decision is more or less tied to Silvermoon, the Maghar want to exterminate the draenei so that leaves maybe the Tauren tribes.

So unless something changes very drastically in the future Saurfang is pretty much on his own.

[Combatbutler]

Yeah but Arthas had it coming, he was built for the fall. I wasn't talking about Sylvanas being Arthased, I was talking about her being Garroshed, meaning becoming a villain and dying in a raid when big part of community doesn't want it. It's different with Arthas, it was originally the plan. With Garrosh and Sylvanas it feels forced.

Sylvanas overstepped her bounds in the warcraft universe with basically setting a small nation on fire, it is not something that usually allows someone to get away with in warcraft.

[steelballfc]

Good, she was a terrible choice as a warchief, hopefully we can kill her later and her cuck Nathanos.

Nathanos : i told you don't trust me

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Yeah, welcome to how all of us Horde fans felt.

fixed it for you

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Saurfang is going to die by Sylvanas and Zekhan will become Warchief. See you in 2019. #HonorableDeath #MorallyGreyMurder #PredictableStory

*raise my hand*
can i have loth'mar as warchife

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Sylvanas should die already. Useless piece of shit character.

Saurfang should die already. Useless piece of shit character.

hilarious
what a forum

[Hubbl3]

I'd actually be on board for Saurfang gathering the Dragonmaw and Frostwolves, pulling a Doomhammer and then carrying on the war with the Alliance anyway.

Sylvanas should kill Baine first though. You know, to show evil she is and everything.

Yes, that would be a good way to go.

[Niaraa]

Another Horde revolution. Cool.

i don't know why is this a problem? if you take the real world as references all tribal federation system or tribal band (Golden horde, Ilkhanate, Mongol empire, Maya city state) were instable as hell and the Khan/high chief/king change a lot! succession was always a big issue with war conflict and rivalry. in other hand monarchy organisation are very stable.

this is a chance for Horde ok they are instable but all race can shine.

[ausoin]

And yet who is going to support his rebellion? As it stands right now he has almost no one backing him, Goblins are fine with it, Talanji wants alliance blood the darkspear under Rokhan are with her, Alliance lifes mean nothing to Lor'themar and the blood elves, the orcs are in full war mode, the forsaken are fully on board, Thalyssra's decision is more or less tied to Silvermoon, the Maghar want to exterminate the draenei so that leaves maybe the Tauren tribes.

So unless something changes very drastically in the future Saurfang is pretty much on his own.

Same thing with Voljin, the orcs showed no discontent with the war,neither the BE after the purge, goblins obviously didn't, only Baine angry comments here and there just like he is doing now in BFA,but the rest of the taurens wanted revenege after Taurajo and had no problems, after the assassination attempt Garrosh placed the Darkspear under marshal law, Baine joined too in rebeling and the other factions just jumped in even though they expressed no intent of doing so before, the BE had but after the purge they wanted Alliance blood just like Zuldazar.

Expect some 99% percent of the orcs were against Sylvanas twitter posts from Blizz.

[Combatbutler]

Same thing with Voljin, the darkspear who saw no discotent with the war, neither the orcs neither the BE after the purge, goblins obvously didn't, only Baine angry comments here and there just like now in Bfa but the rest of the taurens wanted revenege after Taurajo and had no problems, after the assination attempt Garrosh placed the Darkspear under marshal law, Baine joined too in rebeling and the other factions just jumped in even though they expressed no intent of doing so, the BE had but after the purge they wanted Alliance blood just like Zuldazar.

There were hints hidden all throughout MoP of the imminent rebellion, so far nothing of the sort has happened with this xpack. A rebellion is fine if it is handled correctly but the other leaders suddenly rallying behind Saurfang makes absolutely zero sense right now. We don't have any information on discontent or rebellious thoughts quite the contrary for 8.1 so far.

So a rebellion has no leg to stand on, the only prominent character probably backing Saurfang would be Baine and that's about it and then there is the matter of dealing with the Alliance I am very certain no race is willing to pay reparations of any form to the Alliance so you would need to negotiate with them as equals to get a good treaty. Saurfang has to guarantee that, it is the most crucial thing since honor means little to more than half the horde, if he rants on about doing the right thing he is basically just paying lip service most won't be interested in, especially Goblins and Forsaken.

So in essence blizz needs to start a massive build up over at least two patches to get this even remotely done right and then they have to neuter Saurfangs view on honor, otherwise he is flat out unfit to lead anything.