Siege of Zuldazar (Spoilers)

[Doffen]

This is not the point anybody is making so that strawman is not going to work - regardless of whether it was a surprise or not ("Citation Please" on that btw), it doesn't change the fact that it is extraordinarily dumb of the Alliance leadership, supposedly a collection of the most OP and longest-serving races in the history of Warcraft, to think that the king of the greatest troll empire is going to willingly surrender after having his capital razed and fleet half blown to pieces. No matter how you dress it up or spin it, that is undeniably naive of them to think that especially given their past experiences when fighting the trolls - it's like they have learnt nothing, whcih apparently they haven't.

Strawman? Ah yes, whenever you feel a bit threatened by some writings on a forum, the usual strawman/moving goalpost excuse.
Yes, the purpose of the attack was naive, but again, no matter how you spin it, it's not what I reacted to.

Citation: Datamined stuff, Wowhead. They attack from 3 sides, and in Nazmir they use the fog to get through. If it wasn't a surprise attack, then the Zandalari and the Horde would have been prepared.

That wasn't what we talked about anyway. The attack wasn't dumb. The attack was well done. You said it was, but you had this little nice save on the "partly my point" line you had earlier, clever. It was only dumb in some RP-way I won't get into.

[Doffen]

Btw I think the raid at the treasury happens at a scenario in the war campaign instead of during the Siege; there seems to be pre-events involving infiltration.

As for what the intent of the Siege was, I think the Alliance was actually hoping to occupy Dazar'alor.

Yeah, the treasury is part of the tactic and happens just before. They go in there with use of void/jaina power portal to get the Abyssal Scepter and some gnomish thing.

[Doffen]

Talan'ji remarks that the Alliance had perfect knowledge of the city's layout and Mekkatorque has us use a device to map the city so it's probably that. (or a meta joke about how Alliance and Horde can run around each other's cities in game? ) The real question is if they actually get the scepter.

Yeah, I couldn't read anywhere that they actually got it. But the part of the gnomish thing, you are probably correct

[Deleted]

Strawman? Ah yes, whenever you feel a bit threatened by some writings on a forum, the usual strawman/moving goalpost excuse.
Yes, the purpose of the attack was naive, but again, no matter how you spin it, it's not what I reacted to.

Citation: Datamined stuff, Wowhead. They attack from 3 sides, and in Nazmir they use the fog to get through. If it wasn't a surprise attack, then the Zandalari and the Horde would have been prepared.

That wasn't what we talked about anyway. The attack wasn't dumb. The attack was well done. You said it was, but you had this little nice save on the "partly my point" line you had earlier, clever. It was only dumb in some RP-way I won't get into.

OK let me break this down for you in case you have trouble following.
My point:

Fucking aye my man Rastakhan, telling Genn and the rest of the Alliance to go fuck themselves in such a defiantly badass way before he bows out. Are they seriously so dumb as to wreck his city, kill his people, and then think they can just waltz up to his throne expecting him to give up willingly? Just like they were too dumb and naive to bring gas masks to Lordaeron in a fight at the gates of the Forsaken capital, they were just as dumb and naive to expect the king of the greatest troll empire to capitulate on a whim after invading the capital of his empire. They obviously have not got the first clue in the nature and resilience of the Trolls as a whole, the fucking idiots. At least Blizzard is consistent in portraying them as tactical morons and then acting shocked when their "plan" backfires, which just makes King Rasta's middle-finger all the more satisfying.

Of course, we can't have the Alliance purposely killing him, which would have actually shown them to have actual balls bigger than peanuts - nope, instead we still gotta see them playing the moral high ground (after massacring his people and his fleet) in giving the enemy the chance to step down and have the great fortune and plausible deniability of pinning it on "an accident", god fucking forbid they might actually step into morally grey ruthless territory and execute him on principle.

Still, the Horde may be losing a future faction leader (given they have not yet joined) but at least he goes down swinging and telling the Alliance exactly what he thinks of them with his dying breath.

Your response:

Nice RP there.

In what world are someone "dumb" when they manage to surprise the Horde and the Zandalari with an attack with that?

Baffled.

In other words, your “point” has nothing to do with my point but you used it to try and somehow disprove mine and deflect away from the point I was making – ergo, you played a strawman and failed. What you claim actually does not disprove anything I, or other people on here, have also stated about the Alliance’s stupidity in expecting Rastakhan to step down and surrender. The execution of this apparent surprise is totally irrelevant and has no bearing on this whatsoever.

That wasn't what we talked about anyway. The attack wasn't dumb. The attack was well done. You said it was, but you had this little nice save on the "partly my point" line you had earlier, clever. It was only dumb in some RP-way I won't get into.

Thanks but no thanks, that was no RP – I was just really pleased with Rastakhan’s response, as a proud Horde player I thought it was a great piece of dialogue telling the Alliance exactly what he thought of them before he died

[derpkitteh]

welcome to the burning of teldrassil and the ancients

i know, i hated it there too.

here, they could have had the loa fighting the ancients, as a way to keep the armies from being destroyed by the loa. it'd have been awesome to see kimbul and goldrinn fight in the distance, while like cenarius fights bwonsamdi.

there's no reason either the ancients or the loa shouldn't have entered into this fight, just like there's no reason the vindicaar shouldn't have. literally the only reason is that they have no idea how to write these pretty much super weapons into average conflict.

[Doffen]

In other words, your “point” has nothing to do with my point but you used it to try and somehow disprove mine and deflect away from the point I was making – ergo, you played a strawman and failed. What you claim actually does not disprove anything I, or other people on here, have also stated about the Alliance’s stupidity in expecting Rastakhan to step down and surrender. The execution of this apparent surprise is totally irrelevant and has no bearing on this whatsoever.

At least Blizzard is consistent in portraying them as tactical morons and then acting shocked when their "plan" backfires, which just makes King Rasta's middle-finger all the more satisfying.

Tactical morons? So the attack was a tactical failure? You see, strawman doesn't apply here. I went straight into point, you said that they are consistent on portraying them as tactical morons, then they make them do an attack like that? My point was this. So what was the dumb thing about the actual attack? Have you done the Alliance War Campaign? You know what they have set up for the attack? I have done both, and the Alliance shown themself as good tacticians.

Funny thing is when I give you citation, and then you say it's irrelevant, haha.

Oh the plan from the Alliance backfired? How so? You got the whole plan cited somewhere?

"The strike on Zuldazar was a success, but the Horde caught up to us as we retreated." Seems they did good to me. But of course, it's irrelevant.

Thanks but no thanks, that was no RP – I was just really pleased with Rastakhan’s response, as a proud Horde player I thought it was a great piece of dialogue telling the Alliance exactly what he thought of them before he died

Pretty much RP.

[Deleted]

Tactical morons? So the attack was a tactical failure? You see, strawman doesn't apply here. I went straight into point, you said that they are consistent on portraying them as tactical morons, then they make them do an attack like that? My point was this. So what was the dumb thing about the actual attack? Have you done the Alliance War Campaign? You know what they have set up for the attack? I have done both, and the Alliance shown themself as good tacticians.

Funny thing is when I give you citation, and then you say it's irrelevant, haha.

Oh the plan from the Alliance backfired? How so? You got the whole plan cited somewhere?

"The strike on Zuldazar was a success, but the Horde caught up to us as we retreated." Seems they did good to me. But of course, it's irrelevant.


Pretty much RP.

And yet none of this relates to, addresses, or disproves anything regarding the point I made because it has absolutely nothing to do with the Alliance being stupid enough to expect Rastakhan to step down. Even with this very response, you are trying to strawman yet again. Legit, I honestly don't know how much simpler I can make this for you...

[Tart]

Mmmm so the horde is going to lose this too huh? This must be what it feels like to be the NPCs we murder en masse in raids. Ace writing Blizz, cant wait to see the obligatory good guys carry the day, how un-creative. The alliance kills their target, the horde targets escapes god forbid we kill Jaina ex machina.

Atleast the Horde get the upper hand in gameplay.

[Doffen]

And yet none of this relates to, addresses, or disproves anything regarding the point I made because it has absolutely nothing to do with the Alliance being stupid enough to expect Rastakhan to step down. Even with this very response, you are trying to strawman yet again. Legit, I honestly don't know how much simpler I can make this for you...

You should look up the term strawman. You actually did it the last response to me. I attacked one of your point. I even wrote that it is naive to think that he would give up easily(wich was your second point, or first) but we know how that goes right.

And yeah, like Nymrohd wrote, that's how it is. You should read the datamined stuff.



- - - Updated - - -

They did not expect Rastakhan to step down. They simply offered him the choice.

It's what Anduin wanted, but maybe not expected as you say.

[Deleted]

They did not expect Rastakhan to step down. They simply offered him the choice.

"King Rastakhan of Zandalar... On behalf of the Alliance, and in the name of King Anduin Wrynn, I hereby request your surrender."

That is not offering him a choice, that is not asking him if he wants to or not - that is merely a 'polite' way of telling him he should step down, which just makes them look stupid because it means they obviously went in expecting that he might do just that. It's like they don't know the first thing about trolls, especially after all of their past encounters. What made them think that it would even be a possibility? That's why they look so dumb and naive.

[Syegfryed]

"the death of the zandalari king was an accident, it was not our intent"

jesus, they can stop trying to make the alliance look lawful good that much, its becoming even more cringe, i know the playerbase want to be the good guys all the time, but everything have limits, give then some balls

[Doffen]

"the death of the zandalari king was an accident, it was not our intent"

jesus, they can stop trying to make the alliance look lawful good that much, its becoming even more cringe, i know the playerbase want to be the good guys all the time, but everything have limits, give then some balls

To be fair, it's mostly Peaceuin. Like Genn(or so it seems according to the datamined stuff) says:

"The strike on Zuldazar was a success, but the Horde caught up to us as we retreated."
So in his, and likely a lot of other Alliance character, the strike was a success.

[Arrashi]

That wasn't the point though(and not what I wrote at all), the purpose could be Anduin wanting to marry Rastakhan, but the point was that the attack came as a surprise, and cornered the Zandalari. So the attack wasn't dumb, it was well organized.

And solidified zandalari as members of the horde.

[Doffen]

And solidified zandalari as members of the horde.

Yep, indeed it did, and I can't wait playing as them

- - - Updated - - -

yes, because by the end Uldir and with everything else the Zandalari had not clearly allied themselves with the Horde and it only happened because of this attack.

I also think that most of us think it's weird that they haven't already yeah, but I guess this attack was the plan blizzard had to make the Zandalari to be extra, extra, extra sure to join the Horde.

[Arrashi]

yes, because by the end Uldir and with everything else the Zandalari had not clearly allied themselves with the Horde and it only happened because of this attack.

There is a bit of diffrence, betwen race having a friendly relationship with a faction, and it having full blow hostily with another faction.

Wait it happened somewhere before....ah belves. Well glad to see alliance being same retards as they were years before. Truly they are masters of politics and strategy.

[Doffen]

The Alliance had already imprisoned their princess and prophet, assaulted their coast, attacked their troops in Zuldazar while moving around, done several world quests were they attack targets within Dazar'alor and in the war campaign also attacked Dazar'alor's defenses directly, seizing ships or blowing ships up.
I'd love to see Sylvanas ask Talan'ji to swear FEALTY to her though, that will be such marvelous development for troll fans, just like she asked from Thalyssra.

Hehe yeah, I am agreeing with you, it is silly. I thought they would be joining very early, like after the Zandalari Forever questline or something like that before I heard they wouldn't.

Lore-wise Rastakhan was the one that was in the way for that I guess, he was sceptical, so he wasn't really a Horde-fan. He liked us players as champions of the Horde, but that's about it.

But yeah, it's a very important decision to make, so they had to be sure :P

[Ophenia]

also, i like how they conveniently leave the loa out of all of this. it's so fucking stupid, there's no reason the loa wouldn't show up and ram their dicks down the alliance's throats like they did in the battle against zul's revolt. just more fucking plot armor.

Well, they have to be forgotten entirely. They're all lame and described as lame in the quests, they're all useless glorified animals. Rezan gets rekt in the most pitiful way ever and we get to kill him afterward. Akunda was having nightmares and he did literally nothing once awaken. The wolf I forgot the name was cowardly hiding in his temple 20 billion km away from anyone.

Only Bwonsamdi seems to be approximately powerful. Why "approximately" ? His two feats so far are to be able to kill Ateena's skeletons army and giving Rastakhan the power to... jump high ? and punch Zul ?

[Deleted]

Well the difference is on what it means to join the Horde. Neither Anduin nor Varian demanded fealty from any of the racial leaders who have joined the Alliance. Sylvanas expressly demanded from Thalyssra (who a few minutes ago was complaining about how the Alliance would be so restrictive) to obey her every order. The High King of the Alliance does not act as an absolute monarch. The Warchief does.

I agree, this has always been one of the fundamental differences between the Horde and Alliance ideologies. What with the Horde being founded on an ideology of strength through unity by virtue of their individual vulnerabilities in a world that would otherwise hunt them, the Blood Oath is understandably demanding - in other words, if a race or racial leader is not willing to give total allegiance to the Warcheif (who represents the Horde's best interests) then they are in effect a liability to the strength of the Horde and thus the strength that they must maintain against their enemies. The Alliance by comparison are a greater force in terms of sheer numbers and so absolute fealty is not of the utmost priority for them, which is most likely why it is never officially demanded (just guessing here btw). The problem a lot of Horde players have with Anduin is that he may not demand this fealty and unity, he just gets it naturally without even trying - every one of the racial leaders and their factions just seem to merrily fall totally in line with his approach and he does not have to seem to lift a finger to get it or maintain it (hence the endless Mary Sue trope comparisons). It is refreshing though, to finally see some of his fellow leaders in Tyrande and Genn apparently challenging him (would love to see the actual datamined dialogue if its available) because aside from making it so much more believable in light of Teldrassil, it would actually show some tension emerging among the Alliance leadership, thereby challenging their "Shiny Happy People" image that has been the case since Anduin took the lead. Long may it continue.

[derpkitteh]

Well, they have to be forgotten entirely. They're all lame and described as lame in the quests, they're all useless glorified animals. Rezan gets rekt in the most pitiful way ever and we get to kill him afterward. Akunda was having nightmares and he did literally nothing once awaken. The wolf I forgot the name was cowardly hiding in his temple 20 billion km away from anyone.

Only Bwonsamdi seems to be approximately powerful. Why "approximately" ? His two feats so far are to be able to kill Ateena's skeletons army and giving Rastakhan the power to... jump high ? and punch Zul ?

kimbul, weakened by centuries with few followers and only empowered by gaining a small tortollan tribe, solos an entire army of naga. gonk is likely stronger than him, pa'ku too. akunda's probably of similar strength to kimbul and conjures lightning storms. krag'wa has a whole new load of followers now, he solos an army of blood trolls.

at the very least, they're on the level of the wild gods.

[Deleted]

I don't think the Loa and as such the Wild Gods, would enter a pure faction war on any more personal level than empowering their followers. They don't care about faction bs themselves. If their followers want to fight and die, that's ok, they give them the means, but above that? nah.
The only way I'd think this viable is if the remainders of the Legion or the Old Gods enter the faction war at the forefront (not only manipulating people and events).