Rampant gear inflation.

[McFuu]

One of the biggest issues with the current game is, for me, the sheer ludicrous volume of disposable gear that's effectively thrown at players. One reason this is an issue is because when you start to overwhelm players with items that make what they're wearing redundant, you effectively lower the value of every item as a result. More rewards makes the game, ironically, less rewarding.

The larger issue here is that the inflation of item level via raiding is effectively creating a huge communal split of haves and have nots. The bottom line is that a group that clears heroic raids will utterly outperform players that don't do organised raiding due to the scheduling demands that it has.

Here are some numbers:

Level cap quest rewards are sat at 281 item level, but we could probably throw in top end crafts and azerite to round players to around 290. World quests will inflate that quickly to the heroic dungeon requirement, where the item level is 325 for precious little effort.

This is already an 11% increase in power with effectively no effort whatsoever, assuming we're talking about 290 to 325. There's then a group of things that compete to increase that number (LFR/Warfronts/WQs/Mythic dungeons/Titanforging) prior to the progression PvE system that matters, in heroic raiding. Heroic raids are throwing out 370 item level slots, which in turn is a 22% jump in power from when you first rounded out at the level cap.

If you take that next step up, and consistently kill Mythic raid bosses, then the reality is that you'll be equipped in 385 pieces which is a rounded jump out of 25%.

So, in other words, if you're just generally dungeoneering and questing then you can expect a solid item level of 340 or so. This is thirty item levels behind the heroic raiders who are going to have pretty much an 8% advantage over you, outside of skill differences.

Rounding out, level cap players are already at 75% of power available in the first tier of this expansion.

To compare this to Classic, for example, the jump was about 60 to 90 at the absolute top end (which there were less of than today's Mythic raiders), so a third of difference through the entire version of the game. We're already close to that after a single tier.

It's just another reason to look forward to Classic. It's not just the additional depth that it has throughout its systems, it's the fact that you don't need to be at the absolute cutting edge in order to have decent development options.

I think you are discrediting the effect secondary stats play, especially as they ever increase in value. Just because as a normal raider I'm around 355, doesn't mean that a mythic raider around 375 is only 8-10% stronger than I am. Just looking at the Zul encounter, my 95-100 percentile parses account for 16k-18k dmg for 375 (mythic) 100th percentile is 32k-36k.

I think the biggest advantage is the proliferation of high level gear. Having a choice between multiple sets of Azerite @ 355+ makes a huge different, especially when someone who is only doing normal/heroic and not as serious doesn't have that choice. An azerite trait gets changed and there goes the collected pieces.

Still I agree that it still seems like Blizz is "making it rain". An issue is that it's because they've added so many end game activities, and people simply won't do them without incentive. You bring up Vanilla, but really there were only a couple of crafted items, and then a progression path of 10 man dungeons into the raids. There was no reason to go back once you supersede a progression points gear.

[Deleted]

It did not use to. Deterministic loot, available each tier, gave solid, rewarding experiences that never got old.

When you got "your gear" each tier... you felt like you reached your goals... a VERY important step in an MMO. The next tier came along and gave you a new goal, with defined paths to reach them. now it's just this never ending stream of gear... the iLevel gets higher, but it is still rng rolls doign the exact same content except the raids.

horrible game design.

Yup, I agree with you.
But the system just wouldn´t work so well without inflation. The RNG complements it and vice-versa. Being able to possibly get a 395 item from no matter where you are keeps the system going. These rare occurrences keep the wheel going, just like every once in a while news about someone who won a jackpot increases the amount of casino visitors.

[Moonsorrow]

Warforging and titanforging need to go away.

Using current tier as an example Rf should be 340, normal 350, heroic 360, mythic 370,
next tier should be RF 350, normal 360, heroic 370 mythic 380
following tier should be RF 360, normal 370, heroic 380, mythic 390
final tier(?) RF 370, normal 380, heroic 390, mythic 400

This kind of overlapping means that players can drop back to 'lower' tiers at higher difficulties and still get upgrade/sidegrades, which gives more to do at end game e.g. during the third tier a 'normal' raider could go back to t2 heroic for gear or t1 mythic

Then in 9.0 levelling gear should max out at 420ish.

No, just no. We've been there in classic, tbc and the beginning of wrath. It lead to the situation were for some classes a trinket from the first or second tier will BiS for the rest of the expansion. And you'll end up farming the same old raid week after week hoping for this one drop. I was there in Classic, farming MC, ZG, BWL week after week just so you could maintain a roster that could progress in AQ or Naxx. This was not very much fun back than and it would not be today, on top of the fact that I would not have the time to do so today.

I'm not saying that today's incarnation of the game is the best, I think Blizz missed the sweet spot somewhere around wrath / cata. But to be honest it is because wow became less and less time consuming and rewarded gear easier, that I can still raid AotC and beginning some Mythic progress. Otherwise I think I would have quit long time ago.

[netherflame]

Everyone these days wants gear thrown at them constantly. They want every activity to reward an upgrade quickly. They want TF/WF gear. All this on top of M+ and 4 raid difficulties that have to be even higher and noticeably different in strength. Then they wonder why there's so much gear inflation.

Yeah, its an issue, but it isn't going to ever change. They can't roll back the clock and make the game less rewarding. Going to keep on the daily RNG treadmill.

I mean they can, its just they won't even though its the best course of action for the game.

[Osmeric]

Gear inflation is the alternative to progressive content nerfs. If you don't want the former, you're going to get the latter.

[barrsftw]

Warforging and titanforging need to go away.

Using current tier as an example Rf should be 340, normal 350, heroic 360, mythic 370,
next tier should be RF 350, normal 360, heroic 370 mythic 380
following tier should be RF 360, normal 370, heroic 380, mythic 390
final tier(?) RF 370, normal 380, heroic 390, mythic 400

This kind of overlapping means that players can drop back to 'lower' tiers at higher difficulties and still get upgrade/sidegrades, which gives more to do at end game e.g. during the third tier a 'normal' raider could go back to t2 heroic for gear or t1 mythic

Then in 9.0 levelling gear should max out at 420ish.

I'd welcome this. Also 9.0 Leveling gear could still max out at like 405 and still be fine. It's not unrealistic to keep your end tier mythic raiding gear throughout the entire leveling process.

[Wewlad]

One thing I enjoy about older WoW is that items weren't replaced so quick. In Classic some pieces remain with you through several tiers, it makes those items feel much more significant. Nowadays you get constant item upgrades but with little long-term satisfaction.

While many people in modern WoW would bitch about a semi-rollback on item philosophy, the game would become much more rewarding later on. I'd bleed out the poison for a chance to transfuse some good blood in the system.

The whole "players need meaningful upgrades" is a crock with how the end result is. The gear inflates yet remains inconsequential and still easily replaced. How the fuck is that meaningful?

[clevin]

So, in other words, if you're just generally dungeoneering and questing then you can expect a solid item level of 340 or so. This is thirty item levels behind the heroic raiders who are going to have pretty much an 8% advantage over you, outside of skill differences.

I don't see this as a problem. I'm that person who did some warfronts, some LFR etc and am at 340. That's plenty to do things like WQs comfortably and to make me competitive in LFR etc (yeah, I know. ). If I decided to tag along on my guild's normal or heroic raids, that item level should make me reasonably able to pull my weight (and, of course, if I do that often, I'll get gear).

So what if someone running heroic raids - two levels above what I do - is 8% more powerful than me? That's not a significant difference. Consider this - if I kill something in 100 seconds, they'll kill it in... 92 seconds? Big deal.

I think the main issue here is that the absolute numbers FEEL large because they're a percentage not of 100 but of 300+. 340 to 370 feels big - it's THIRTY levels... but it's 8%. It's like moving from, well, 100 to 108. And if we were in a world where LFR and M0 drops 100 gear would people REALLY be up in arms if the heroic raid dropped 108? No.

[razisgosu]

Warforging and titanforging need to go away.

Using current tier as an example Rf should be 340, normal 350, heroic 360, mythic 370,
next tier should be RF 350, normal 360, heroic 370 mythic 380
following tier should be RF 360, normal 370, heroic 380, mythic 390
final tier(?) RF 370, normal 380, heroic 390, mythic 400

This kind of overlapping means that players can drop back to 'lower' tiers at higher difficulties and still get upgrade/sidegrades, which gives more to do at end game e.g. during the third tier a 'normal' raider could go back to t2 heroic for gear or t1 mythic

Then in 9.0 levelling gear should max out at 420ish.

I like this idea a lot. I hate forging. I get that blizzard wants there to be an incentive to play beyond getting your BiS gear, hence the forging, but its always seemed dumb to me that an item can potentially go up 15 or more ilvls just because RNG.

[YorHa-Unit-2B]

If anything the 8% power difference from dungeoneering and questing from Mythic Raiders, is too little in my opinion. I spend far too much time in preparing, reading up and farming proper gear in order to do mythic raids, someone who just casually logs in to do heroic and mythic 0 dungeons shouldn't be that close.

[Pua]

I don't see this as a problem. I'm that person who did some warfronts, some LFR etc and am at 340. That's plenty to do things like WQs comfortably and to make me competitive in LFR etc (yeah, I know. ). If I decided to tag along on my guild's normal or heroic raids, that item level should make me reasonably able to pull my weight (and, of course, if I do that often, I'll get gear).

So what if someone running heroic raids - two levels above what I do - is 8% more powerful than me? That's not a significant difference. Consider this - if I kill something in 100 seconds, they'll kill it in... 92 seconds? Big deal.

I think the main issue here is that the absolute numbers FEEL large because they're a percentage not of 100 but of 300+. 340 to 370 feels big - it's THIRTY levels... but it's 8%. It's like moving from, well, 100 to 108. And if we were in a world where LFR and M0 drops 100 gear would people REALLY be up in arms if the heroic raid dropped 108? No.

That’s why I put the percentages in; just to show what the differences really are, rather than the misleading pure numericals.

[Kuja]

Power is fun. Getting significant upgrades from new raids is important to keep people wanting to play. So many sources for drops, it would be pointless to get a 5 ilvl upgrade.

[cparle87]

Interestingly, I was thinking about when this started and was thinking closer to Wrath (when raid difficulties started with tier 9).

That’s a suspicion, though. You could easily be right.

To be entirely precise we had raid difficulties starting in T7 with Naxx. 10 and 25 had totally different loot tables, with 25 being 13 ilvls higher than 10.

[Deleted]

Having 45 ilvls difference between LFR and Mythic isn't exactly a bad thing. You want a fully mythic geared person to absolutely destroy a fully geared LFR player. That used to be the incentive for player to gear up "oh wow look at that guy's DPS and gear!". Titanforging is the enemy, not necessarily the ilvl differences.

[Weeps]

You'd think with all the gear thrown at us, enchanting would be more affordable.

[Frosteye]

Gear inflation is the alternative to progressive content nerfs. If you don't want the former, you're going to get the latter.

The content isn't really being nerfed though, it just becomes rapidly obsolete each patch. The path to obtaining gear is incredibly easy and the level of difference between current tier + next tier is extremely high. This means that doing last-patches' content is redundant.

Back in Classic Tier 1 gear was still very good up until the end of classic before BC came out. The power differences between Tier 1/2/2.5/3 were a lot smaller, and the difficulty/time required to acquire each tier was considerably higher than what we have now. This meant that doing previous-patches' content was still worthwhile for most players.

Classic End result: Gear upgrades were rare, but overall felt more worthwhile since you could feel confident that you wouldn't be replacing it for quite a while.

BFA: in BFA we are littered with gear drops left and right, and with the RNG system we are constantly doing the same content over and over gambling for that lucky drop. Next patch comes out, and we start all over again with every single gear slot. It feels like we're constantly throwing our gear away every couple months.



this is why I don't really care about gear anymore. I just queue up for RBGs with my friends and enjoy the game. If my item level is 5 levels lower than the next guy, it doesn't matter since the gear will be obsolete in 3 months anyway. That being said, I do wish that gear progression felt more worthwhile/satisfying for the longer term.

[Deleted]

The gear firehose could easily be toned down by giving us badges/etc back.

Drop less gear, give a tangible way to work towards the items we actually want rather than a bunch of random stuff that isn’t an upgrade or is for an alt spec we never play.

then someone would shout "blizz wants us to farm all the time for gear to keep subs going, time sink" and shit like that.

[ceall]

One of the biggest issues with the current game is, for me, the sheer ludicrous volume of disposable gear that's effectively thrown at players. One reason this is an issue is because when you start to overwhelm players with items that make what they're wearing redundant, you effectively lower the value of every item as a result. More rewards makes the game, ironically, less rewarding.

The larger issue here is that the inflation of item level via raiding is effectively creating a huge communal split of haves and have nots. The bottom line is that a group that clears heroic raids will utterly outperform players that don't do organised raiding due to the scheduling demands that it has.

Here are some numbers:

Level cap quest rewards are sat at 281 item level, but we could probably throw in top end crafts and azerite to round players to around 290. World quests will inflate that quickly to the heroic dungeon requirement, where the item level is 325 for precious little effort.

This is already an 11% increase in power with effectively no effort whatsoever, assuming we're talking about 290 to 325. There's then a group of things that compete to increase that number (LFR/Warfronts/WQs/Mythic dungeons/Titanforging) prior to the progression PvE system that matters, in heroic raiding. Heroic raids are throwing out 370 item level slots, which in turn is a 22% jump in power from when you first rounded out at the level cap.

If you take that next step up, and consistently kill Mythic raid bosses, then the reality is that you'll be equipped in 385 pieces which is a rounded jump out of 25%.

So, in other words, if you're just generally dungeoneering and questing then you can expect a solid item level of 340 or so. This is thirty item levels behind the heroic raiders who are going to have pretty much an 8% advantage over you, outside of skill differences.

Rounding out, level cap players are already at 75% of power available in the first tier of this expansion.

To compare this to Classic, for example, the jump was about 60 to 90 at the absolute top end (which there were less of than today's Mythic raiders), so a third of difference through the entire version of the game. We're already close to that after a single tier.

It's just another reason to look forward to Classic. It's not just the additional depth that it has throughout its systems, it's the fact that you don't need to be at the absolute cutting edge in order to have decent development options.

Ilvl =/= power.
A ilvl 370 character is about 3 times as strong as a ilvl 290 character.

Remember when in Legion we had about 150k dps as fresh 110 and about 2.5M dps by the end of the expansion? And we had less than 200 ilvl increase throughout over the course of Legion (excluding legendaries).

[Thirtyrock]

This is one of the complaints I see that I actually agree with. I don't like the TF/WF/Random Socket thing.

I don't mind loot coming from a lot of different areas, but I would prefer each difficulty drop 1 item level, with stair-steps between difficulties. I feel like getting BIS is so much harder than it used to be, because the bis itemization can drop normal or warforged or titanforged. With or without a socket, with or without a tertiary stat.

[Frosteye]

This is one of the complaints I see that I actually agree with. I don't like the TF/WF/Random Socket thing.

I don't mind loot coming from a lot of different areas, but I would prefer each difficulty drop 1 item level, with stair-steps between difficulties. I feel like getting BIS is so much harder than it used to be, because the bis itemization can drop normal or warforged or titanforged. With or without a socket, with or without a tertiary stat.

It would be also nicer if the power differences between Normal/Heroic/Mythic were much closer in line. Also the difference between Tier_X and Tier_X+1 much closer.

Make Mythic Tier_X equivelant to Heroic Tier_X+1?


it would be nice if my gear was worthwhile for longer than 3 months.