Will MM hunter be dead until next xpac?

[Emerald Archer]

I said ONCE after the other classes got their buffs. Which is this week, give it another 2-3 weeks and you will see a shift. Destro/fire/demo are already very close to BM in damage, and they just got buffs... what do you think will happen.

Nothing will change, because while being close on statistics overall, it doesn't display the kind of damage BM brings and the reasons you want them on the later bosses.

More warlock specs being good will have 0 effect, because affliction is already top, you aren't going to randomly collect 2-3 more warlocks because 2 other specs stepped up. And as for fire mage, you aren't suddenly going to go from 2-3 BM a boss, to dropping them for Mages. The Mages you currently have will switch fire, but the desirability will remain the same as it was for the other 2 specs, maybe slightly more interest.

Absolutely doesn't mean BM is suddenly not highly desired in raids. I get it's fun to be like "The sky is falling! My spec sucks!" But BM spots aren't what is at risk.

[Deleted]

Nothing will change, because while being close on statistics overall, it doesn't display the kind of damage BM brings and the reasons you want them on the later bosses.

More warlock specs being good will have 0 effect, because affliction is already top, you aren't going to randomly collect 2-3 more warlocks because 2 other specs stepped up. And as for fire mage, you aren't suddenly going to go from 2-3 BM a boss, to dropping them for Mages. The Mages you currently have will switch fire, but the desirability will remain the same as it was for the other 2 specs, maybe slightly more interest.

Absolutely doesn't mean BM is suddenly not highly desired in raids. I get it's fun to be like "The sky is falling! My spec sucks!" But BM spots aren't what is at risk.

yeah, once other classes will do more damage, it will have an effect on hunter raid spots

but w/e

[Banard]

Feral drood, shadow priest and the shaman specs are getting buffed and reworked but nobody talks about the current state of MM hunter. The spec is on the bottom of the logs, it does not have any strengths right now. Tbh the azerite traits only make this state even worse because after stacking Steady Aim trait we only use two spells on single target which is boring as hell. There is nothing changed on PTR yet and it seems nothing will change in the future too, after every low-performed spec got some buffs (fire mage, destru warlock, etc etc) we still didn't get anything. hello?

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i forgot to mention prot warrior as well

In the end there experiment failed. They re-wrote MM and surv in legion and only switched the resource mechanic of BM. There class design has been garbage. Instead of improving upon the past and adding a little extra we got uncalled for reworks. BFA comes along and they rewrite MM and Surv once again.

I don't see any improvements to play style coming mid-xpac. MM needs another rework. It is just not a numbers game. I get the feeling there going to treat it as surv in WoD.

This said, BM has a scaling issue (it always had a scaling issue). So, with new azerite traits in later tiers, it is possible the play-style of MM can improve and make MM>BM.

Right now, since Legion hit i feel my class that i could play all three specs well (90% logs in all three specs) has become a 1 spec class. A spec that i hate mine you. The spec i enjoyed the most has been and always be the old surv.

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I think the reason why MM is back in line for tuning

MM do not need tuning...it needs play style readjustment. This is the reason its in back of the line. The easy number adjustment get done first.

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Hunter has been changed every expansion for 10 years now almost. .

What are you smoking? Since BC every xpac added a little to each spec, improving on the iteration before. The only major change was mana turned into focus and how we build focus.

Legion was the first time there was a total rework of the specs. Where the current iteration looked nothing like the xpac before. Legion changed MM and Surv into the monsters they are today.

[Kaver]

MM do not need tuning...it needs play style readjustment. This is the reason its in back of the line. The easy number adjustment get done first.

Sorry I used the wrong term.... but the point is still the same. Blizzard don't have time to do shit, because they are spending all their time on an Azerite system which adds no value to the game.

[Mavick]

This said, BM has a scaling issue (it always had a scaling issue). So, with new azerite traits in later tiers, it is possible the play-style of MM can improve and make MM>BM.

The scaling issues you refer to do not exist anymore. It used to be that pets gained very little power with certain upgrades, particularly weapons. But all that was revamped in BfA. So there's no point in bringing up this old inaccuracy.

[Deleted]

Yes, blizzard omeganerfs BM in pvp. Make surv godlike in pvp. They make MM a shit spec. Its all cuz they want everyone to play the retarded love child Surv

[Nythiz]

i'm with you guys,
I play surv/mm since BC and now it worse than ever.
I just unsub, cuz i have no words to describe this situation.

Good please leave, and stop posting this melodramatic BS.
These kind of half assed threats are getting really old really fast. We all know that the large majority of the people who post this never quit anyway.

---

As for the topic:

A very small part of me is hoping that they are working on some more drastic changes and those are the reason we haven't seen any token buffs (e.g. +5% overal damage) buffs yet.

However I've played this game enough to know that blizzard generally doesn't care for the 3rd spec of a pure dps class if the other 2 specs are performing fine. Demo lock has been garbage for 2 expansions before they overhauled it; mages also frequently had 1 spec that was significantly underpowered for the majority, if not entire, expansion.
I'm sure they might eventually nerf and buff some stuff to bandaid the garbage single target rotation that MM currently has; but I don't forsee them do anything significant.

MM might be fine on ST fights with some number adjustments (frankly on a pure patchwerk fight it's currently not even that bad); it will leave the rotation in a poor state, ironically turning MM in the 2 button spec that BM once used to be, but it's easy to do decent dps with MM if they buff a few things.

A few things really need looking after. I could go on a 3 page rant about each thing, but in short:

1) Talents need serious looking after, both on an individual level (e.g. Lethal Shots / Explosive Shot) as well as on a whole.
It's OK if talents are slightly stronger in one area than the other, in fact that's great. It's nice to pick a certain talent for a tyrannical M+ and another for Fortified; however currently the gap is so large with some talents that it leads to frustrating choices where you feel like you're choosing if you want to suck in ST or suck in AoE rather than feeling like you pick up something that makes you slightly better at something.

2) Trueshot
Trueshot went from being probably one of the best cooldowns in game, to a rather shitty one. I never really quite feel like I'm excited to press that button, which is a major design flaw. Also the 1 extra Aimed SHot charge feels extremely clunky and means I can't even use it 50% of the time without losing out massively.

3) Rapid Fire
Rapid fire feels a bit like its trying to do to many things and ends up being rather mediocre in a lot of cases. It doesn't feel like a big dps cooldown, it also doesn't feel like a huge focus regen cooldown. At this point, I feel like its just cluttering the rotation with no true purpose other than maybe AoE dps.

4) AoE
AoE rotation at the moment is complete garbage. For a spec with such a harsh restriction on it's AoE we're performing rather mediocre when those conditions are met. Make up your mind on AOE and give MM AoE a true purpose.
Personally I would really like it if they made MM AoE more like Subtlety AoE where more targets lead to higher single target dps. It fits the theme of the spec (high single target throughput) and gives MM hunters a nice niche that isn't very common as far as I'm aware. That makes us really useful in a lot of AoE situations where we can either burst a priority target down (think Raging affix or a specific lethal mob), or we can use smart targetting to make sure targets die at the same time (e.g. bolstering affix where 1 mob is at 60% HP and another at 30% HP, we can focus the 60% HP mob down).

5) Lone Wolf
I really like they made this passive and removed the talent option, which was never really an option. But Im not sure I like the balance currently where you kind of want to use a pet on one fight and not on another; it creates this awkward flow.

---

That said. I've seen several people asking for MM to return to legion version. But I strongly disagree with that.
The legion MM version toward the end might be beter than MM is now, but trading a bad design for another bad design isn't how the class should be fixed.

[Tehterokkar]

4) AoE
AoE rotation at the moment is complete garbage. For a spec with such a harsh restriction on it's AoE we're performing rather mediocre when those conditions are met. Make up your mind on AOE and give MM AoE a true purpose.
Personally I would really like it if they made MM AoE more like Subtlety AoE where more targets lead to higher single target dps. It fits the theme of the spec (high single target throughput) and gives MM hunters a nice niche that isn't very common as far as I'm aware. That makes us really useful in a lot of AoE situations where we can either burst a priority target down (think Raging affix or a specific lethal mob), or we can use smart targetting to make sure targets die at the same time (e.g. bolstering affix where 1 mob is at 60% HP and another at 30% HP, we can focus the 60% HP mob down).

I feel like they missed a goldmine with making the Legendary belt effect baseline.

[Doffen]

Sadly they changed the Legion MM which was awesome. Been MM since 2006 until prepatch BfA except a while in BT/SWP, so pretty sad to see how boring they made it
Luckily Survival is very fun!

I wouldn't get the hopes up for them changing Markmanship at all this expansion.

[threads]

doubt they do anything to MM this xpac. went from 3 specs to 2 in legion, now 2 specs to 1 in bfa. i already rerolled cause they dont know what theyre doing with this class.

[IamFrostwyrm]

Good please leave, and stop posting this melodramatic BS.
These kind of half assed threats are getting really old really fast. We all know that the large majority of the people who post this never quit anyway.

---

As for the topic:

A very small part of me is hoping that they are working on some more drastic changes and those are the reason we haven't seen any token buffs (e.g. +5% overal damage) buffs yet.

However I've played this game enough to know that blizzard generally doesn't care for the 3rd spec of a pure dps class if the other 2 specs are performing fine. Demo lock has been garbage for 2 expansions before they overhauled it; mages also frequently had 1 spec that was significantly underpowered for the majority, if not entire, expansion.
I'm sure they might eventually nerf and buff some stuff to bandaid the garbage single target rotation that MM currently has; but I don't forsee them do anything significant.

MM might be fine on ST fights with some number adjustments (frankly on a pure patchwerk fight it's currently not even that bad); it will leave the rotation in a poor state, ironically turning MM in the 2 button spec that BM once used to be, but it's easy to do decent dps with MM if they buff a few things.

A few things really need looking after. I could go on a 3 page rant about each thing, but in short:

1) Talents need serious looking after, both on an individual level (e.g. Lethal Shots / Explosive Shot) as well as on a whole.
It's OK if talents are slightly stronger in one area than the other, in fact that's great. It's nice to pick a certain talent for a tyrannical M+ and another for Fortified; however currently the gap is so large with some talents that it leads to frustrating choices where you feel like you're choosing if you want to suck in ST or suck in AoE rather than feeling like you pick up something that makes you slightly better at something.

2) Trueshot
Trueshot went from being probably one of the best cooldowns in game, to a rather shitty one. I never really quite feel like I'm excited to press that button, which is a major design flaw. Also the 1 extra Aimed SHot charge feels extremely clunky and means I can't even use it 50% of the time without losing out massively.

3) Rapid Fire
Rapid fire feels a bit like its trying to do to many things and ends up being rather mediocre in a lot of cases. It doesn't feel like a big dps cooldown, it also doesn't feel like a huge focus regen cooldown. At this point, I feel like its just cluttering the rotation with no true purpose other than maybe AoE dps.

4) AoE
AoE rotation at the moment is complete garbage. For a spec with such a harsh restriction on it's AoE we're performing rather mediocre when those conditions are met. Make up your mind on AOE and give MM AoE a true purpose.
Personally I would really like it if they made MM AoE more like Subtlety AoE where more targets lead to higher single target dps. It fits the theme of the spec (high single target throughput) and gives MM hunters a nice niche that isn't very common as far as I'm aware. That makes us really useful in a lot of AoE situations where we can either burst a priority target down (think Raging affix or a specific lethal mob), or we can use smart targetting to make sure targets die at the same time (e.g. bolstering affix where 1 mob is at 60% HP and another at 30% HP, we can focus the 60% HP mob down).

5) Lone Wolf
I really like they made this passive and removed the talent option, which was never really an option. But Im not sure I like the balance currently where you kind of want to use a pet on one fight and not on another; it creates this awkward flow.

---

That said. I've seen several people asking for MM to return to legion version. But I strongly disagree with that.
The legion MM version toward the end might be beter than MM is now, but trading a bad design for another bad design isn't how the class should be fixed.

Spot on, Talents are all over the place, which is fine, but how do you compete vs BM when they can use 1 build for the whole game.

Also, arcane shot needs to go, it has no place in this specc and its just extra buttons for the sake of extra buttons, having normal aimed shot instead of this charges abomination would fix the whole thing.


Rapid fire feels like a super lackluster skill, honestly it feels like they made the skill with the sole purpose of not wasting the new spell efect for marked shot..

Lets not even mention how clunky trueshot is

The fact that they finally took lone wolf ou of the talent tree looked like a blessing, until it became clear its not even used in ST.

Id prefer MM legion 10x over this garbage, it was much better, had a bit of thought into it, and had much clearer definitions of strength and weakness, not artificial weakness created by target limitations

Theyve completely killed SV, then they kill MM, maybe one day only the simpletons who like to press kill command will remain, and balancing will become as easy as pie

[Tyze]

I get a feeling that MM will be better next tier. MM often scales better than BM, but we’ll see. So far BM is more interesting and actually more fun to play then MM so I’m happy with playing BM.

Vulnerable in Legion was shit, but it’s miles ahead of BFA MM. Shame.. Miss WoDs version

[Deleted]

I get a feeling that MM will be better next tier. MM often scales better than BM, but we’ll see. So far BM is more interesting and actually more fun to play then MM so I’m happy with playing BM.

Vulnerable in Legion was shit, but it’s miles ahead of BFA MM. Shame.. Miss WoDs version

they fixed BM scaling with legion, so nope its not going to be, the core problem with MM is still the very clunky gameplay with little to no utility compared to BM, even if they would be equal in damage, BM would still win in every other deparment

[Malikath]

Hunter died for me in legion when they basically removed the spec I had been playing since the wrath pre patch.

ranged surv was great, it should of been BM to become melee only and MM should of remained the way it was in MoP(like everything else) without a god-damned CD on aimed shot as our main spender.

PS, arcane shot should be your conditional spender for moving and on procs, mark should be baseline and applied by aimed shot on hit or on cast by serpent sting.
chimera shot should be ranged surv's thing but i think marks should have some self-affecting on-target armor reduction since it invests so heavily into physical damage.

[Tyze]

they fixed BM scaling with legion, so nope its not going to be, the core problem with MM is still the very clunky gameplay with little to no utility compared to BM, even if they would be equal in damage, BM would still win in every other deparment

BM was the worst dps in Antorus afaik.

[Deleted]

BM was the worst dps in Antorus afaik.

i messed up addons, i meant they fixed BM scaling in BFA