Blizzcon 2005 Raid Design - i knew i wasnt crazy

[Sastank]

I hope you enjoy your experience of Classic since you never got to play it live back then, as is the case for a lot probably.

When the rose tinted goggles lose their shade and a lot of people quit in under 6 months, the live game you Classic people trashed on for years will still be there for you.

I feel as though I'm in the minority of people who played Vanilla and don't think it's the second coming of Christ or something. A lot of my experiences were NOT fun or enjoyable. Maybe it was being a tank, maybe it was because it was my first MMO, who knows.

[NovatHunter]

I don't want the current wow developers to go back to how it was in 2004-2006 exactly.

But i really want them to really look at these Blizzcon videos from 2005 and ask themselves, why the developers thought what they thought. Because they did something right. These videos don't show a development team bringing in a couple hundred thousand players. This was in 2005, and going from 2005 to 2006 the subscription count would increase by over 5 million. It should be obvious to all that something was done right.

[Perkunas]

Here's the thing, Dexter.

People have this weird desire of avoiding games where they can't play all of it's content - especially when the game has a subscription. WoW is almost as old as Ragnarok Online, yet it manages to live. I think that the devs need to take whatever chances they can.

WoW's truly lucky to be based on a heavy franchise as Warcraft (Warhammer, Fantasy, etc).

I think Preach hit the nail on the head 5 years ago with this:

[khalltusk]

Most people didn’t even step a foot inside a raid in Vanilla. Despite that, the population grew.

There was a lot of churn during that time (and during TBC and wrath) it was masked by new players coming into the game. So a lot of people left but it was hidden somewhat by the amount of new players replacing them and increasing the overall numbers.

I enjoyed vanilla and will give classic a go. Vanilla at the time was the best MMO around and was also the most casual friendly with a ton of Polished gameplay and a great UI. Compared to other MMOs at that time it was leaps and bounds ahead of them. Its no wonder it got as huge as it was.

[Tekkommo]

I've been called an an awful person for having my "exclusive" opinions about the game.
But Plot twist
Blizzard actually believed in this stuff in 2005 Blizzcon panel of Raid Design.

"Players need something to aspire to: When you see someone in raid gear you think that person is cool (maybe motivate you to raid)"

"The world feels bigger for everyone if there is unbeaten content out there"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Falm0H7VEiQ&t=0m55s

What do you guys think about this?
The guy was completely wrong on his ideals and philosophy behind the game?

I want to play Classic WoW so much because i believe in this oldschool ideals.
I hope all of us have a great time in Classic WoW

You have to remember this is a different time. WoW was a new game, I didn't even know what raiding actually was until level 60. Now we have so much information given to us, from dataminging, youtube channels, guides everywhere. We just had the World First raid streamed live to 100k+ concurrent viewers.

There is nothing to aspire to in Classic now, it's all been done and there are loads of guides with the easiest and quickest route. The painful bit will be seeing only 2 drops per raid boss, and sometimes never the tier piece you need. If you stay a consistent raider, you should get geared up fairly quickly though. With someone like you, I don't know how you'll like raiding each week knowing you might receive zero loot, you come across as someone who gets bored as soon as they have killed the final boss.

There will be no unbeaten content, it will be cleared asap. MC and Ony will be down as soon as guilds have enough people level 60. Naxx will be cleared within hours of release.

Still looking forward to Classic, but there is nothing special about seeing people in tier gear these days, there never actually was. Well perhaps the first time, like damn that gear looks sweet. I still get that when I see a nice transmog.

[Deleted]

"Players need something to aspire to: When you see someone in raid gear you think that person is cool (maybe motivate you to raid)"

"The world feels bigger for everyone if there is unbeaten content out there"

that is my view as well. that is why I raid mythic - because there is content I haven't done before.

They already said LFR was a failure when they introduced flex, and LFR is the biggest violation of what they said in 2005. So yeah, i think - at least to some degree - they still hold those views.

I am actually a bit torn. On the one hand, i think normal mode is great for casual guilds. And its great for my alts. On the other hand, having so easy content somewhat cheapens beating it finally on mythic. But that doesn't mean i have a solution. i do not think normal mode should go. But I do think LFR should go. raiding should be an organized thing.

[Coldfrostzero]

Classic was beaten though. Everything has been beaten. What magical unbeaten content in Classic is there? I don't even understand what feeling you're trying to grab on to.

If you haven't cleared M G'huun and claiming that isn't the same as killing Kel'thuzad I have a hard time agreeing. Just because it is "the same boss at a higher difficulty" doesn't mean stuff doesn't change. They add in mechanics or whole phases the higher the difficulty usually. You can aspire to be a mythic raider, but most people are just as lazy as they were in Classic and can barely manage clearing dungeons. Just because you don't, doesn't mean its not there for you to do.

[Gavll]

Classic was beaten though. Everything has been beaten. What magical unbeaten content in Classic is there? I don't even understand what feeling you're trying to grab on to.

If you haven't cleared M G'huun and claiming that isn't the same as killing Kel'thuzad I have a hard time agreeing. Just because it is "the same boss at a higher difficulty" doesn't mean stuff doesn't change. They add in mechanics or whole phases the higher the difficulty usually. You can aspire to be a mythic raider, but most people are just as lazy as they were in Classic and can barely manage clearing dungeons. Just because you don't, doesn't mean its not there for you to do.

This whole "if you haven't beaten the highest difficulty" is just one way of thinking. Some people don't see a difference between the same content on different difficulties.

The raids themselves should get harder each time. Not have modes of difficulty depending on how shit the players are. If you remove that choice from the player to just do it on easy mode, then they have targets to strive for. They should do stuff like Ulduar hard modes if they want to add extra difficulties or like the bug trio in AQ40.

[drori8]

I hope you enjoy your experience of Classic since you never got to play it live back then, as is the case for a lot probably.

When the rose tinted goggles lose their shade and a lot of people quit in under 6 months, the live game you Classic people trashed on for years will still be there for you.

I feel as though I'm in the minority of people who played Vanilla and don't think it's the second coming of Christ or something. A lot of my experiences were NOT fun or enjoyable. Maybe it was being a tank, maybe it was because it was my first MMO, who knows.

so basically what you say is "l0lz am the retails players and am's bored with BFA c-z iz s0ckzors so am's not having n0ting to do so am come to class0cs forUms to tells people woot thEy likes or not lmfa0."

correct? btw your not a garbage bag you are the juice of the garbage that is dripping down to the floor. GTFO back to your BFA forums and go whine there. we dont need someone to tell us what we like or deciding for us. im gonna specifically remember you name and will care to send you a print screen of me playing after a year just to shove it down your throat.

[Sastank]

so basically what you say is "l0lz am the retails players and am's bored with BFA c-z iz s0ckzors so am's not having n0ting to do so am come to class0cs forUms to tells people woot thEy likes or not lmfa0."

correct? btw your not a garbage bag you are the juice of the garbage that is dripping down to the floor. GTFO back to your BFA forums and go whine there. we dont need someone to tell us what we like or deciding for us. im gonna specifically remember you name and will care to send you a print screen of me playing after a year just to shove it down your throat.

I read the first few words and decided your post isn't worth reading.

Try to form constructive coherent sentences next time instead of trying to be "funny".

[sam86]

Well lets be honest, alot of the old ones weren't that great either.

paladin tier 4 was a joke ( i know some will like it, but for me it is sh8t)

[Deleted]

Technically if you aren't clearing mythic level raids there is unbeaten content for you. The difference? One it's 15 years later and no one gives a damn, and two, Transmog has pretty much destroyed any coolness factor there was from getting Tier sets.

No there isnt. Mythic raids are not new content. If you beat LFR WoW content is finished for you. This is giant flaw in the game. New difficulty isnt new content.

[drori8]

I read the first few words and decided your post isn't worth reading.

Try to form constructive coherent sentences next time instead of trying to be "funny".

nah not funny, your actually really really sad person if you think you can tell others what to like. you dont like tanking why you thinking others as well? you think its rose tinted glasses while others playing vanilla for years? who are you to tell them that you dont like it? your sounding just like that faggot allen brack "you think you do but you dont".

[Deleted]

The problem with saying that Vanilla WoW is the solution is that all of its content -has- been beaten and will be stomped into the ground again on release by guilds like Method and whoever else goes back to play through Vanilla.

Within 3 months of launch, everything will be dead again, and since it's a content locked game, there will never be any unbeaten content ever again.

Just saying, if your definition of a 'big world' is 'unbeaten content', Vanilla WoW's world will be real small, real fast.

3 months? Content of 14 old game can last 3 months? And this is supostu be failure? BFA content didnt last more than 3 weeks so 3 months is good enough for me. But i wont be even lvl 60 in 3 months so. For me it is more like 1,5y befor i clear classic content.

[Deleted]

nah not funny, your actually really really sad person if you think you can tell others what to like. you dont like tanking why you thinking others as well? you think its rose tinted glasses while others playing vanilla for years? who are you to tell them that you dont like it? your sounding just like that faggot allen brack "you think you do but you dont".

No he was right, it ain't funny.

[Deleted]

There was a lot of churn during that time (and during TBC and wrath) it was masked by new players coming into the game. So a lot of people left but it was hidden somewhat by the amount of new players replacing them and increasing the overall numbers.

I enjoyed vanilla and will give classic a go. Vanilla at the time was the best MMO around and was also the most casual friendly with a ton of Polished gameplay and a great UI. Compared to other MMOs at that time it was leaps and bounds ahead of them. Its no wonder it got as huge as it was.

No it wastn. Retention was pretty high. That nonsen about game getting more players than lossing is made up by todays casuals to justifi existence of LFR and other nonMMORPG systems. I was casual back in vannila, TBC and i have never quit single time becouse i didnt get to see content. I dont even know anyone who quit wow becouse they didnt get to see naxx or w/e.

[Deleted]

Sort of sick of mythic tbh. But at the rate Blizzards going they'll announce legendary raids soon for 4 difficulties >.< That's their answer to everything not more content, the same content with more % across the board

Technically, there is more content now but it takes less grind to complete. Vanilla was just a gold/gear treadmill.

[Deficineiron]

And im about to blow your mind or not

LFR only needed to exist because Blizzard has absolutely zero idea on how to make countent outside raids.
If Blizzard knew how to keeep people happy without having to raid...LFR didnt need to exist.
Nor needed to exist so many raids nowadays.

LFR was a panic button in Cataclysm.
Subs started drping for no reason and Blizz pressed the panic button. IMO

I think LFR was needed internally by blizzard to justify investment in raid development by showing much, much higher participation/completion stats for raid content. It may also be why players are so aggressively pushed into the LATEST raid upon release rather than keeping other current expansion raids current.

Blue even spelled this out once - 'if it weren't for LFR, we couldn't do this raid.' paraphrased

[Coombs]

Vanilla was designed by people who played Everquest and wanted a game anyone could play but still did ideas they thought were cool. Retail is now designed by geeks who grew up on WoW and have changed it to what they think cool is. Those people aren't cool, don't know what fun is, and live in this idea where everyone gets to do everything. It makes for a shallow game.

[Nnyco]

what content was unbeaten again in vanilla?