Will Pally Port spec be "tuned" to actually tank?

[blooderduki]

Only place where druid would be tanking a boss would be eating hatefuls on Patchwerk.

Nowhere else is a druid "better" than warrior.

Shahraz , Twins, Ragnaros,General Rajax is where Druids Shine too!

Shahraz because it require fast charge/taunt and this is where Druid is best!
Twins because they lower the Warrior Defense anyway ,which let Warrior without def cap and Druids thanks to high Armor is best for it!
Ragnaros because Warriors do have problems Charging/Taunting/Running and Agroing it from melee , Druids can do it extremely easy!
General Rajax because Druids can kite the Boss , while the whole group is focused on mobs

And so on.

[Felrane]

Bears and paladins could tank mostly everything in vanilla. All 5 man content they were perfectly fine it took alot of consumables to really shine. Pallys problem was no taunt so they didn't make good 2nd tanks in raids but could do rolls that didn't require taunt swaps.

[blooderduki]

Because a mage or druid pressing his decursive key is so hard that you need to use a hybrid tank instead of a warrior



You said "some bosses", and then listed one boss. From a 20man. In which Druid isn't superior because literally all you need to do is dispel the tank.

Still Druid is more optimal than the Warrior for that Boss!

[caervek]

And last thing ,sure , name me single Boss that require Taunt, so you will get an answer how to do that Boss as Paladin Tank.

The Four Horsemen.

[blooderduki]

At which point the boss may not go back to you because the DPS has already overtaken you on threat. Unless you want the entire raid to stop doing threat to the boss during the time the Paladin is not doing anything on the boss. Actually, why not just use a Warrior instead?

In that case, the same rule apply to Warrior when his Taunt resist, it will simple become a Raid Wipe.

And last is that Paladin is less likely to loose aggro unlike suboptimal or inferior threat makers Warriors.

[jackofwind]

In that case, the same rule apply to Warrior when his Taunt resist, it will simple become a Raid Wipe.

And last is that Paladin is less likely to loose aggro unlike suboptimal or inferior threat makers Warriors.

Until those Warriors get geared and start subbing gear for TPS, at which point they shit all over Paladins.

[blooderduki]

The Four Horsemen.

This is what i expected!

If you bothered to read the Topic discussion , you would already seen it , but surely you didn't :

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post50292278

I read this every single time in all official and unofficial forums and everywhere.

How about if you were clearly wrong and what if reality is completely different than you could possible imagine ?

How do you get such conclusions that 4 HM can't be done as Protection Paladin?

Did you knew that Vanilla was never ever fully explored, neither people didn't ever use theorycraft about it?

How would you feel , if you were 100% wrong , because you couldn't manage to discover it or accept it?

Four Horsement and how to do it as Protection Paladin :

Let me Begin:

1- The most easiest of them is either the Shadow (top left) or Holy (top right) Horse .

2- You as a Paladin , using BiS Gear, all consumes and world Buffs , can manage to grow and have up to 14k HP or more.

3- Which mean , you are now able to tank (with some efforts) and handle 8 Debuffs from the horse.

How the Rotation and strategy work :

4- You can do it together with 1 Tank (it will be hard for Healers, but doable) Warrior or Druid , who is able to Taunt, one of the Top 2 horses as 2 Tanks swapping eachother (hardmode), since their normal damage is weak but the debuffs are only strong dmg taken.

5- First you as Paladin go there and Tank up to 6 debuffs (each of them reduce threats) and burn the whole mana trying to build massive amount of threats (exorcism ftw).

6- Once you get 6 debuffs, the Warrior runs and Taunt it from you (same rule by debuffs apply to him) , while he should make extra tiny or small amount of threats in order to take and just keep the target from you ,afterward he should not do any threats,but enough to keep the horse on him without making more than 110% threats compare to Paladin (it is called control over threats).

7- Once the Warrior goes up to 7 Debuffs (exact time when the Paladin debuffs are about to gone) he uses Last Stand or Shield Wall , so he can manage to survive the 8th without causing problem to healer, for the last debuff he simply not making any threats at all , so he is going to loose his target to the 2nd tanks (paladin) without any taunt used.

8- Once the last debuff hit the Warrior , thanks to aggro reducing by each mark , the Warrior is going to loose his threats and the Horse will automatically run back to the previous Tank (Paladin) who will be taking over from the Warrior with Exorcism and Judgement.

9- The Paladin then , can manage to tank up to 8 Debuffs with all cd's and Priest Bubble on him in order to Absorb and Survive the last one.

10- And vise versa with Warrior taking over at the end.

(challenging,but doable,never impossible)

11- Until the second time Paladin take over up to 8 debuffs (building up massive threats), the group already had like nearly 3 minutes spend, by that time , they should already killed one of the horses , which mean , you have extra tanks that are going to make it easy and take over this Horse too for lesser debuffs.

12- The Healers threats in this case it will never be any problem , since they constantly loose their threats by swapping and get the first 4 debuffs .

13- The only Place , this might not work is Private Servers , if they don't have this properly scripted.

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Until those Warriors get geared and start subbing gear for TPS, at which point they shit all over Paladins.

Then they become weaker than the Paladin in regards to Surviving , which causes problems to Healers.

If Paladin do the same as Tank and collect TPS Gear , then your Warrior will become nothing but a dust .

[Uselessrouge]

they should not change anything.. they suck at balancing stuff.. it would probably just break evrything if they want to balance specs.. they still suck at balacing actual classes so i hope they wont touch the old ones.

[jackofwind]

This is what i expected!

If you bothered to read the Topic discussion , you would already seen it , but surely you didn't :

https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...1#post50292278

I read this every single time in all official and unofficial forums and everywhere.

How about if you were clearly wrong and what if reality is completely different than you could possible imagine ?

How do you get such conclusions that 4 HM can't be done as Protection Paladin?

Did you knew that Vanilla was never ever fully explored, neither people didn't ever use theorycraft about it?

How would you feel , if you were 100% wrong , because you couldn't manage to discover it or accept it?

Four Horsement and how to do it as Protection Paladin :

Let me Begin:

1- The most easiest of them is either the Shadow (top left) or Holy (top right) Horse .

2- You as a Paladin , using BiS Gear, all consumes and world Buffs , can manage to grow and have up to 14k HP or more.

3- Which mean , you are now able to tank (with some efforts) and handle 8 Debuffs from the horse.

How the Rotation and strategy work :

4- You can do it together with 1 Tank (it will be hard for Healers, but doable) Warrior or Druid , who is able to Taunt, one of the Top 2 horses as 2 Tanks swapping eachother (hardmode), since their normal damage is weak but the debuffs are only strong dmg taken.

5- First you as Paladin go there and Tank up to 6 debuffs (each of them reduce threats) and burn the whole mana trying to build massive amount of threats (exorcism ftw).

6- Once you get 6 debuffs, the Warrior runs and Taunt it from you (same rule by debuffs apply to him) , while he should make extra tiny or small amount of threats in order to take and just keep the target from you ,afterward he should not do any threats,but enough to keep the horse on him without making more than 110% threats compare to Paladin (it is called control over threats).

7- Once the Warrior goes up to 7 Debuffs (exact time when the Paladin debuffs are about to gone) he uses Last Stand or Shield Wall , so he can manage to survive the 8th without causing problem to healer, for the last debuff he simply not making any threats at all , so he is going to loose his target to the 2nd tanks (paladin) without any taunt used.

8- Once the last debuff hit the Warrior , thanks to aggro reducing by each mark , the Warrior is going to loose his threats and the Horse will automatically run back to the previous Tank (Paladin) who will be taking over from the Warrior with Exorcism and Judgement.

9- The Paladin then , can manage to tank up to 8 Debuffs with all cd's and Priest Bubble on him in order to Absorb and Survive the last one.

10- And vise versa with Warrior taking over at the end.

(challenging,but doable,never impossible)

11- Until the second time Paladin take over up to 8 debuffs (building up massive threats), the group already had like nearly 3 minutes spend, by that time , they should already killed one of the horses , which mean , you have extra tanks that are going to make it easy and take over this Horse too for lesser debuffs.

12- The Healers threats in this case it will never be any problem , since they constantly loose their threats by swapping and get the first 4 debuffs .

13- The only Place , this might not work is Private Servers , if they don't have this properly scripted.

So they can do it if they make an already hard fight a lot harder, get carried by the other tanks for every tank swap, get all the healer CDs dumped on him, and have a group geared enough to kill 4HM fast enough that he doesn't become even more of a liability than he is.

Oh, and you're gonna need your Paladin "raid tank" to be geared entirely in non-set pieces, doing this with no relevant set bonuses. Oh, and you need all the world buffs to even kill it, so you better one-shot it or be ready to port and summon your Paladin to and from DM every time he dies.

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[B]
Then they become weaker than the Paladin in regards to Surviving , which causes problems to Healers.

If Paladin do the same as Tank and collect TPS Gear , then your Warrior will become nothing but a dust .

Except not at all. Warriors can easily sub out offset pieces after T2 for more TPS without suffering very much at all. Good luck doing that on your Paladin who doesn't even get tank set bonuses.

Here's the thing - from your writing it looks like you're RUS. RUS are infamous for having terrible ideas about Vanilla raiding that translate to them performing very poorly compared to EURO and NA players. Things like prioritizing CoS for two Warlocks and a handful of Hunters over CoR for melee or CoE for the 9 Mages in the raid. You just can't take them seriously at all.

[Jastall]

I have to say it isnt really that much different from BFA. Lost of classes have barely 1 spec viable "cry in shaman".

Viable in retail is far different from viable in vanilla. "Non-viable" specs (and there's like four in PvE, three of them Shaman specs sadly because Blizzard really hates them) in retail are just not as good as others. You can still easily contribute your fair share as a Spriest or Enhance shammy in anything but the very top of the content; we're not talking about the spec being excluded from Mythic here, we're talking being excluded from Hall of Fame-tier Mythic and +15 and up key pushing, shit that close to nobody does.

Non-viable classes/specs in vanilla are just trash all around in even semi-serious PvE content. A Spriest in vanilla is virtually useless after 2 minutes. Same for Boomkins, Prot Pallies, Ele Shamans, and a few others. Survival hunters weren't a thing. In fact any class that used mana and couldn't regain it by themselves, couldn't really DPS or tank, and healed almost exclusively. Yes, yes, I'm sure there were like two Shamans per server that got Sulfuras and wrecked faces in PvP when the Windfury RNG gods smiled on them, but that's an incredibly specific exception.

[anon5123]

Pallys problem was no taunt

And there was very little tanking gear that wasn't Warrior tier gear
And they could easily run out of mana, so you had to chug mana potions and runes
And they had no big defensive cooldowns (shield wall, last stand)
And they could not become uncrushable without eating a crit first
And their threat was based on spell power instead of attack power, and sp/def/stam plate was practically nonexistent
And...etc

Paladin's raid tanking problems are much deeper than just "no taunt".

[iamthedevil]

"I want the game to still be broken!"

[anon5123]

"I want the game to still be broken!"

"I want Vanilla but without all the things that made it Vanilla!"

[Lycanthat]

Side note: which was a better tank for lower level 5-mans and solo questing: Prot Pally or Shaman equipped with the exact right type of gear and talents?
I'm considering doing a write-up and/or Youtube series comparing the two as I level them both up.

[Whiskra]

In that case, the same rule apply to Warrior when his Taunt resist, it will simple become a Raid Wipe.

And last is that Paladin is less likely to loose aggro unlike suboptimal or inferior threat makers Warriors.

They simply use Challenging Shout, and after that has run out, stance dance to Mocking Blow and then Taunt is back off cooldown.

[xcitng]

No, I don't think they will because if they change 1 thing, they have to change many others(spriest/ret/kin) its easier and its more authentic to how vanilla was.

It can be viable for lesser guilds who are progressing slower/using less meta specs over all classes, which I'm sure blizzard is happy to leave them at.

[blooderduki]

So they can do it if they make an already hard fight a lot harder, get carried by the other tanks for every tank swap, get all the healer CDs dumped on him, and have a group geared enough to kill 4HM fast enough that he doesn't become even more of a liability than he is.

Oh, and you're gonna need your Paladin "raid tank" to be geared entirely in non-set pieces, doing this with no relevant set bonuses. Oh, and you need all the world buffs to even kill it, so you better one-shot it or be ready to port and summon your Paladin to and from DM every time he dies.

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Except not at all. Warriors can easily sub out offset pieces after T2 for more TPS without suffering very much at all. Good luck doing that on your Paladin who doesn't even get tank set bonuses.

Here's the thing - from your writing it looks like you're RUS. RUS are infamous for having terrible ideas about Vanilla raiding that translate to them performing very poorly compared to EURO and NA players. Things like prioritizing CoS for two Warlocks and a handful of Hunters over CoR for melee or CoE for the 9 Mages in the raid. You just can't take them seriously at all.

And the fight we were talking about was just only 1 fight , as other guys already bashed the druids about being "efficient for only 1 fight" .

This time is vise versa, being suboptimal on 1 Boss and therefore getting thrown for that reason , is more than ridiculous statement.

TBH now that you know , that Paladin can tank every single Boss without himself needing a taunt, you should stop complaining about such thing.

And for the Warriors and Threats part, i am sorry , but Warriors are extremely limited mainly to the Weapon, while Paladins scale extremely high with Spell Damage and mediocre with Attack Power.

No damn Tier or whatsoever can make Warriors better than Paladin regarding threats, deal with that, there are enough offset items that makes Paladin more than enough to do the job easy like cake!

So you would be using Full T2 as Tank while others Threats Items, the same job can be done as Paladin using Offset pieces mixed with Retribution Set for more Threats and surviving at the same time, not only that it will make more Threats than the Warrior , but will turn him into dust at that point.

Last thing , i am EURO and i am not RUS . Europe is not English like NA , yes majority tend to communicate in English , but majority are not English there.

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Viable in retail is far different from viable in vanilla. "Non-viable" specs (and there's like four in PvE, three of them Shaman specs sadly because Blizzard really hates them) in retail are just not as good as others. You can still easily contribute your fair share as a Spriest or Enhance shammy in anything but the very top of the content; we're not talking about the spec being excluded from Mythic here, we're talking being excluded from Hall of Fame-tier Mythic and +15 and up key pushing, shit that close to nobody does.

Non-viable classes/specs in vanilla are just trash all around in even semi-serious PvE content. A Spriest in vanilla is virtually useless after 2 minutes. Same for Boomkins, Prot Pallies, Ele Shamans, and a few others. Survival hunters weren't a thing. In fact any class that used mana and couldn't regain it by themselves, couldn't really DPS or tank, and healed almost exclusively. Yes, yes, I'm sure there were like two Shamans per server that got Sulfuras and wrecked faces in PvP when the Windfury RNG gods smiled on them, but that's an incredibly specific exception.

Paladins Prot can regain mana using JoW and SoR extremely high , they wont oom at all using that way .

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And there was very little tanking gear that wasn't Warrior tier gear
And they could easily run out of mana, so you had to chug mana potions and runes
And they had no big defensive cooldowns (shield wall, last stand)
And they could not become uncrushable without eating a crit first
And their threat was based on spell power instead of attack power, and sp/def/stam plate was practically nonexistent
And...etc

Paladin's raid tanking problems are much deeper than just "no taunt".

1- There was more than enough Offset tanking Gear , it doesn't has to be Warrior Tier Gear , these Offset tanking Gear was good enough as the Warrior Tiers.

2- Same as Warriors easily starve for Rage, so we are on the same boat (unless your whole experience is from broken pservers where Warriors had infinite Rage).

3- Lay on Hand , not only full your HP max, but also provides 30% Armor for 2 minutes , unlike Last Stand that is worthless and doesn't heal you at all. Bubble from Paladins could remove deadly debuffs , Warriors Shield Wall is going to save them from Deadly Debuffs, it will be 100% death!

4- Why in 7 hells i would go to eat Crit in order to survive Crushing Blow which is half the damage compare to crit?! Do you have any clue what you just said ? Or you throw such statement based on false believes? Crushing Blow has maximum 15% chance to land extra 50% more damage, Critical Strike (you can get crit immune) land extra 100% more damage . So Crushing Blows are not sort of monsters as you try to push , it's minor increasing of the current Boss damage , as comparison to high damage blocking as Paladin.

5- You don't need any Spell Damage Gear , you basically go for only Spell Damage Weapon which is more than enough , the rest of the Items were Defense Tanking offset Gear, you increase your spell damage from good Spell Damage Weapon + Wizard Oil + Arcane Elixir + Enchants , which provide more than any T3 Damage Dealer could do threats.

Paladin raid tanking had no problems at all , if you know how it work, unfortunately this is where you fail terrible.

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Side note: which was a better tank for lower level 5-mans and solo questing: Prot Pally or Shaman equipped with the exact right type of gear and talents?
I'm considering doing a write-up and/or Youtube series comparing the two as I level them both up.

Best 5 man Tank compare to any existent Tank is Paladin Protection , you simple use Seal of Wisdom , Judgement of Wisdom and run ahead like horse without stopping , without any cc need etc.

You can do easy extremely fast runs and many people are going to be amazed from that.

Check my Youtube Channel Killerduki and you can see how it work (even tho the videos was made as undergeared for the Dungeon level for educational purposes).

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They simply use Challenging Shout, and after that has run out, stance dance to Mocking Blow and then Taunt is back off cooldown.

Challenging Shout is not a Taunt , Mocking Blow has big CD.

Speaking for that, Blessing of Protection is Taunt for Paladin that never ever Resist, not only that will remove threats from the Target, but also the same target will be protected from any sort of Physical Damage.

Since you put Challenging Shout , Lay on Hand is biggest Taunt Paladin can do , just use to lowest HP target and every single mob/boss is going to run toward you.

Judgements doesn't Require Rage, which mean, when Warrior is not tanking , he can't generate easy Rage and his abilities hardly makes any threats, unlike Paladins who doesn't need Rage and can do big amount of threats even if target switch to anyone and can over take it easy again.

Most important ,70% of Bosses are immune to Taunt or Mocking Blow , which leaves Warriors as a Trash aggro tanks once the Boss switch the target.

[Biomega]

"Guys, is there going to be chocolate ice cream in my vanilla?"

Yeah, well, no. You asked for vanilla. You get vanilla. Remember all the people saying how many things about vanilla sucked? That's what you're getting.

[Gungnir]

Viable in retail is far different from viable in vanilla. "Non-viable" specs (and there's like four in PvE, three of them Shaman specs sadly because Blizzard really hates them) in retail are just not as good as others. You can still easily contribute your fair share as a Spriest or Enhance shammy in anything but the very top of the content; we're not talking about the spec being excluded from Mythic here, we're talking being excluded from Hall of Fame-tier Mythic and +15 and up key pushing, shit that close to nobody does.

Non-viable classes/specs in vanilla are just trash all around in even semi-serious PvE content. A Spriest in vanilla is virtually useless after 2 minutes. Same for Boomkins, Prot Pallies, Ele Shamans, and a few others. Survival hunters weren't a thing. In fact any class that used mana and couldn't regain it by themselves, couldn't really DPS or tank, and healed almost exclusively. Yes, yes, I'm sure there were like two Shamans per server that got Sulfuras and wrecked faces in PvP when the Windfury RNG gods smiled on them, but that's an incredibly specific exception.

To be fair, a lot of the less viable PvE specs were pretty damn good in PvP.
Shamans and spriests were monsters in PvP with the right gearing and a decent player.

Secondly, Vanilla focused heavily on the fact that you played a class and not a spec.
It was based very much on the old AD&D type of thinking with very specific jobs/places for each individual class. That being said, there were still spots for most SPECS and they weren't too bad.
I think the only spec I've seen only really be used up in Naxx tier is Balance druid for the 3% crit. Other than that, you can easily put Nightfall on an enhance and drop him in the melee group and he'll not only be viable but actually very valuable for the windfury totem and Nightfall debuff.
Same with Ret paladins, give 'em Nightfall and have them drop utility when needed and they're incredibly valuable.

[Nitros14]

They can't let paladins tank because then shamans would need to tank or alliance have two viable tanks and horde one.