Asmongold, voice of many, shares his thoughts on current state of WoW

[kamuimac]

repost from different thread, but just as relevant here:

i think blizz has just fallen foul of the corporate money men.



as pointed out here, blizz literally had to justify the amount of resources (i.e. people they pay money to create this stuff) spent on creating raid content. the question is, why? who came along and suddenly decided that raids were a waste of money? i'm not sure, but whoever it was hammered the first nail into WoW's coffin.

it all started going to shit when hard modes came out. blizz themselves admitted they were experimenting with the endgame system and trying to lure more people into raiding (again, to justify the expenditure on it's development, instead of additional world content for example - thus the old argument of "that'll cost a raid tier" when talking about adding additional content or system designs).

hard modes are not new content. they just aren't. there might be new abilities and more mobs to counter, but a UI switch is just pitiful. the Ulduar hard mode system was the best by far and they should've continued that trend. not all bosses needed hard modes. adding activated hard modes to the bosses it made sense to add them to should've been the way forward. but no, blizz felt it was better to give every boss a hardmode and increase the ilvl of the gear reward. which has led us into the current system.

in my opinion they should've just carried on with the Ulduar system, of adding activated harder difficulty modes on the more storied and lore appropriate bosses.

tiers used to be 13ilvls, hardmodes rewarded +7ilvl. this was a careful planned and math'd out progression system that was tied to the health/damage of mobs.

the problem was, they fucked this up in wotlk, by giving naxx 10, ilvl 200 loot, then naxx 25 ilvl 213, and then made it worse by having kel thuzad drop 213 in 10 man and 226 in 25 man.

so when ulduar came out, 10 man dropped 219 (226H), 25 man dropped 232 (239H) and suddenly player power was through the roof. as each tier progressed, the stats player were getting from gear, were making them more powerful than they should've been - which made outdoor world mobs ridiculously easy, which in turn means that the next tier of raid content had to be tuned up. however, because of this, blizz then had to tune up the badge/catch up rewards to ensure that players aren't left behind in new outdoor world content which had to be tuned up to cater to the now OP raiders.

the problem was, blizz latched onto this whole gear inflation idea to solve the symptoms of the problem, not the actual problem - which was that ilvls in raids had scaled unintentionally high.

instead of fixing the system in cataclysm, they leaned into it. so instead of outdoor content mobs of lvl 85 being consistent in the damage they dealt, whenever they released new patch content, the mobs would be incrementally harder to counter the gear inflation of players doing hardmode content. they then added catch up gear mechanics, to help other players bridge the gap.

now, it's gone to excessive levels. dungeon blues used to be effective against max level mobs for the entire expansion - now, you have to have catch up mechanisms in new areas, because the mobs are scaled up in difficulty to counter the gear inflation. non raiders will now grind a new set of gear to counter the higher level mobs. raiders grind out high level gear, next patch drops and the circle jerk continues.

it's now got to the point where it's actually really hard for blizz to fix the problem without a major system overhaul.

this wont be a popular opinion, but it's what i'd do if i had the keys to the castle.

i'd go back to 1 raid difficulty. utilising flex raid sizes and class metrics to scale the bosses appropriately in terms of damage dealt + healthpool.
i'd give at least 3 or 4 bosses per raid tier, activated, Ulduar style hardmodes.
loot would be back at 13ilvls per tier, hardmodes would reward +7ilvl.
hardmode loot would only fill a maximum of 3 slots per class. (probably weapons, shoulders, trinket) to limit the impact of gear over future content.
remove WF/TF/random sockets.
tier sets. up to 6 piece bonuses.
return to badge vendors to help negate unlucky RNG.

skill should not be punished.

mythic+ would be difficult to balance in terms of reward. but, could be more rewarding in terms of badge rewards, gold, transmog + mounts, M+ has become the prestige part of WoW. you dont need ilvl boosts if you're already really good at the game - it just makes the next tier of content easier for you. when you should rightfully want it to be challenging and not faceroll.

when rolling into a new tier of content, the bar for entry is a full set of the previous tiers ilvl.

honestly, the current system is a sham. it's a lottery. it's badly optimised for progression. it's badly itemised. it's not rewarding, it's just trying to keep you playing the game but for the wrong reasons. the lessons on progression should've been learnt by the first stat squish. the second stat squish just proved they've lost direction in how to progress. it can be fixed, but would need a serious design overhaul.

with the tech blizz have available these days, wow could and should be the fun, fulfilling, meaningful experience it used to be.



makes you wonder, if classic does well, whether they'll continue the original expansion roll out again, but with different changes to the systems as they age. i.e. not fucking up the ilvls in Naxx V2.

TL: DR the fundamental link between content difficulty, mob hp, ilvl and player satisfaction has been broken by hardmode content and ilvl inflation. fix the inflation problem, fix the game.

edit: also, timewalking + transmog running old content for people that don't raid, should be as much of a justification for creating raid content as hardcore raiding. in a game like WoW, the content lasts as long as players want something from it (mounts, pets, transmog, titles). when you make it easy to get, that desire easily wanes.

classic will do as amazing as wildstar did - which was supposed to be this jezus christ 2nd coming proving that hardcore playerbase is out there

how it ended we all know.

i really wish that classic was here already to observe its inevitable catastrophic fail 2 weeks after launch once people realie how long and shitty leveling alone is.

- - - Updated - - -

yeah ofc it will, after months of farming

but for example during progress some guy could end up having much higher ilvl just because he got luckier.. and with personal loot its even worse.. and this never used to happen pretty much

so go play other games that offer this . wow never did this . rng was always terrible in this game .

most of you people would be much happier playing arpg not mmorpg from the looks of things because you all have 1 thing in common - you hate grinding which was always base of any mmorpg.

wow was never game for you since very beggining.

[Craaazyyy]

so go play other games that offer this . wow never did this . rng was always terrible in this game .

most of you people would be much happier playing arpg not mmorpg from the looks of things because you all have 1 thing in common - you hate grinding which was always base of any mmorpg.

wow was never game for you since very beggining.

yeah ofc rng was a part of the game and should be.. cuz you cant make it so bosses would always drop loot.. there is already too much loot to begin with

loot dropping or not is just one part of rng..

but now we have layers on top of layers of rng

back in the days loot either dropped or not

now we have TF, we have random sockets, shit like avoidance and speed and other shit, countless amount of stupid sources of gear

also you clearly show the lack of knowledge about game genres

ARPG is all about grind.. literally its what the genre is all about, and WoW is actually getting to the point where its all about grind, pointless grind that "rewards" lucky people for no reason

also dont tell me whether i should quit or not

and RNG was never terrible, cuz as i said the only RNG about it was whether it would drop or not .. never at any point in the game b4 titanforging you actually felt bad if you looted a piece of gear.. with titanforging many people feel bad if the loot they got wasnt titanforged

also speaking about whether the game is for me or not.. I already addressed all the problems with TF pretty much, but i think that all these things that i addressed wouldnt really be bother me as much if things that i consider being way more important werent fucked up. Things like class design, for example.

[Deleted]

He is talking about that the only way Blizzard will listen to the audience is if you unsubscribe. Which is true. But why isn’t he unsubscribing? I know why. Because he is one of the biggest wow streamers on Twitch and he will loose most of his audience if he unsubscribes which makes his opinions rather pointless because he will never quit the game.

If all people who point the issues out quit, who is then left? At some point, no one.

[Deleted]

Almost all studies on serotonin levels have been done on mice, so I doubt there is research to back that claim. Serotonin certainly does affect behavior, but in an incredibly complex interplay between receptor density, transport protein expression, epigenetic changes, MAO enzyme activity, release patterns and of course other psychological and neurological factors. Most research on humans has been by observing changes in behavior of humans given various compounds that are expected to affect serotonin levels (ie SSRIs and anti-psychotics) - but as the compounds are often not very well understood, have other effects and are not guaranteed to mimic "natural" changes in serotonin levels it's incredibly difficult to use this data to make definitive statements about the role of serotonin in human behavior. This research is also almost entirely focused on treating various clinical conditions (depressions, psychosis, ADHD, PTSD, etc.) so it's questionable if these studies are well suited to gaining an understanding of non-pathological human behavior.

Serotonin is an extremly misunderstood "neurotransmitter" that is actually much more than that. It has so many other functions - it's found in mast cells and contributes to regulation of the immune system, wound healing and cell growth; it has a role in appetite, digestion and the body's response to toxins, regulating nausea among other things; it affects blood clotting; etc. etc.

The individual perception of altruism in others (expecting others to act in self-interest or not) is such a complex mental construct that it cannot be explained simply in terms of neurotransmitter levels (if such a thing was even an actual concept, and not just a gross simplification). Most people cannot even accurately determine when or to which degree they themselves are acting in self-interest or not.

Going back to the original claim that you should be somehow suffering from serious neurochemically imbalances because you claim Asmongold may actually just be stating his opinion without any ulterior motives - that's just absurd.

It's much more likely that a streamer will convince themselves of having an opinion which also happens to match what the viewers want. Most people aren't cold, calculating cynics. Self-serving interests often happen at a subconscious level, thus making a very different kind of self-interest than the one happening at the conscious level.

Either way, Asmongold is echoing an opinion held by many players, as seen by how this video has resonated even with many players who otherwise don't care about him at all. Blizzard has walked into a PR nightmare with BfA through a succession of failures and problems, that in isolation would be quite minor. But they're amplifying some concerns and issues that have been building for a long time, and now there's a very negative vibe surrounding the expansion and the game.

I still think this is more about internal resource allocation than poor design - and the unwillingness to admit the constraints they are working under. Rather than admitting that class reworks, major azerite changes and significant island/warfront improvements are not happening because they don't have the engineering and QA resources to do this - they try to strike a strange balance between admitting to having issues and trying to excuse why they are not fixing them.

Players get frustrated, seeing this passive response to problems as arrogance and laziness, and with Q&A, blue posts and interviews just stoke this fire of frustration. In my mind, Blizzard either needs to allocate the resources needed to get the mechanics and systems back on track (even if their designs and solutions may clash with the wishes of some players, I think players are much likely accept disagreement than inaction) - or they need to admit that they simply don't have the resources to make these changes. But that opens an entirely new can of worms, and management may prefer having the designers and game director as scapegoats, rather than admit to essentially underfunding some parts of the development process.

If I only had at my disposal one upvote among all the forums I frequent, this post would get it.

[Deleted]

The irony is everyone who complained about legion are the same ones talking about how great it was now that we're in BfA. The only thing I'll agree with him on is that blizzard addresses the symptom but not the cause.

The irony is that if people didn't complain about things that didn't work in Legion you'd be softcapped on four legendaries and would be lucky to complete a full set of legendaries for a single spec, not to mention a full class. I'm pretty sure Activision-Blizzard's only regret on that one is that someone noticed.

Just look at BFA - first they released Island Expeditions with virtually no droprates, then they heavily buffed them and now it feels like each week there's less and less items dropping from them again.

Making Alchemy ludicrously expensive, then "fixing" it by increasing the amount of Anchor weed per node, not the nodes themselves, which also feel like there's less and less are appearing as weeks go by. Fixed ludicrous flask and potion costs on PTR, but then after their sinking ship campaign somehow potions got their cost reduction reverted.

Then it's of course everyone's favourite - Azerite gear. Problem - chance of getting even one right azerite peace from dungeons drop over a major patch cycle is ludicrously low. Activision-Blizzard's solution - make Azerite from a DIFFERENT source be slightly higher item level, yet not quite at the cap, making them just as worthless as they were.

And then the randomness. Everyting's just so random. Not a single system left that lets you work towards something to supplement you when you're unlucky, but this time, with no end to it. At least in Legion you could see an end to legendary grind once you had the ones you wanted for the character you play, but this time? The chance of getting something you want is so low that getting an azerite piece you want is lower than getting a freaking epic raid mount. Ask anyone who's been trying to get ashes for years how they feel about it.

With less than 1% chance chance to get what you want per week with ~104 weeks over the course of an expansion less than 3% of all players will have gotten ONE azerite piece that they feel is their best. Less than 0.0001% will have gotten 3. If you think that's not that bad, with about 3 tiers over the course of an expansion or about 35 weeks between gear resets, of those 3% of people who actually got lucky enough to get ONE of their 3 most desired azerite 3% of them will have gotten it on the LAST week before the item levels go up making it instantly useless. But at least you can... oh, wait... you can't, it's all random.

At least you don't have to keep farming AP all the time. Or do you? What's most likely going to happen is blizzard's going to take the highest neck in the game on new patch tier and use it's level as baseline for every single Azerite piece that drops after new patch. Making you refarm your t2 and t3 traits over and over and over again, so if you're one of the 3% lucky people on a new patch cycle you have to keep farming until you can use your item and if you're one of the "lucky" 3% at the end of said cycle you get to use it for one whooping week before it's all starting over again. Fun...

You have to keep talking about it until it's fixed, because without targetable goals they may as well just remove all gear from the game. At least then your character wouldn't just be a coat hanger.

Legion systems were shit at the start too and some of the systems never saw a proper fix. Like Havoc DHs only having one viable trait. But other systems got to a point where they actually kind of worked towards the end and to be honest Legion was the most enjoyable when you could actually buy specific legendaries from the vendor. You couldn't get them instantly either, it took some farming, but if you didn't get lucky you at least had a back-up option and I could only really get into playing some of the more unlucky and abandoned alts at the very end of that expansion for exactly that reason.

Having the weekly box have a token that you could trade for a specific dungeon's item would be a good start. Instead of getting one item out of 100+ randomly you'd get one dungeon token out of 10 at random making it very likely that you'll actually see that Siege of Boralus token that you could trade for the trinket or ToS token that you could trade for either a weapon or an azerite piece.

Having the azerite pieces actually have 3 useful traits per ring that unlock on a trait, not ring basis with one trait per ring unlocked instantly would also make it so you can actually wear your new item as soon as it drops and not after 5 neck levels when all rings are available even if you'd have to respec it once everything unlocks.

What do you know? I came up with a system that doesn't gear up your character on week one, while also not making you bank your azerite items until traits unlock while ranting, with some random elements still there but not so random that you groan at the though of getting another useless secondary belt.

[obesemidget]

Give it a little bit of time. The first raid tier is always the worst.

[Mafic]

Give it a little bit of time. The first raid tier is always the worst.

Patch 8.1 is on the PTR and it doesn't instill confidence with BFA moving forward.

[KaPe]

Give it a little bit of time. The first raid tier is always the worst.

Then how about they release X.0 version internally and we only start paying once 8.1 is up? This is not the first time it happened and they never learn.

[Deleted]

not sure what game you've been playing but rep grinding has been around in WoW for quite some time. The way most people complain I don't think many ever played in BC when true content gating existed.

The irony is everyone who complained about legion are the same ones talking about how great it was now that we're in BfA. The only thing I'll agree with him on is that blizzard addresses the symptom but not the cause.

I am talking about titanforging, way too much RNG, LFR, LFG, multiple difficutly levels, inclusive content, welfare epics etc.. IDC about grind. Grind is core aspect of any mmo but there is difference beetwen fun and boring grind. How can grind be fun when you have clasess with gutted specs what are boring to play and reputations with such boring and useless rewards? Yeah you cant.

[Thestuff1992]

Main reason I dont like the guy
so many of his videos were basically him sitting there making comments on other people's work.
T&E, Bellular, Hazel they all take time and do some really good videos.

Do you seriously not realize those aren’t his videos? Fans make them and post them on YouTube. He rarely makes YouTube vids himself anymore and when he does they aren’t reactions videos. Those are all fan made.

[lortsy12]

Retail WoW is dead. Subs under 2 million and vanilla around the corner. Rest in peace.

[Eliessa]

I disagree with him on the feedback. it's not like the devs dont want to listen to us, but cant. what the devs are doing is always judged if it makes money or reduces cost. and if a dev cant do that he will be replaced. wow is literally in a race to the bottom for 0 cost content (make player play longer without investing dev time aka raise cost) like mythic+, loot roulette, tiered raids, etc.
it's kinda sad, but not surprising.

[Mafic]

Retail WoW is dead. Subs under 2 million and vanilla around the corner. Rest in peace.

Classic wow will generate great interest as the current loot casino of BFA is a turn off for MMORPG vets.

[Laurabelle]

I don't find Asmongold to be a particularly good public speaker. He tends to ramble and use too many words to get his message across, and this video is no different. It baffles me why he is so popular given that.

That said, after watching the video at length I do find myself agreeing with many of his points. I just wish he had outlined his thoughts and prepared a bit before hand. He has the potential to be much more than he is. His work just feels lazy to me.

[HuxNeva]

I don't find Asmongold to be a particularly good public speaker. He tends to ramble and use too many words to get his message across, and this video is no different. It baffles me why he is so popular given that.

Delivering basal unnuanced statements, no matter how dumb, in a loud voice by an overconfident ego inflated narcissist repeated ad nauseam is a proven success formula, and not just on YouTube.

[Exodeus]

Can not watch a video by him, just can't stand him and i'm clearly not alone in this so if he wants his points heard put them in writing.

[Deleted]

Do you seriously not realize those aren’t his videos? Fans make them and post them on YouTube. He rarely makes YouTube vids himself anymore and when he does they aren’t reactions videos. Those are all fan made.

They are taken from his video stream on twitch. The guy didn't say anything about youtube.

Asmongold's content is almost entirely "reaction" videos to other people's content. It is lazy-assed shit.

[Noomz]

What do you think? Some great points he brings up.

Dont you mean "voice many parrot because they dont have their own opinions"? Because that's all I ever get with these streamers. Their fans will parrot anything they say.
How can WoW stop being an MMO? There's absolutely no other MMO out there that has anything else to do at their end game that's not the same as WoW or much worse. Do people even know what they're asking for? Because to me it seems they ask for what nobody can ever reasonably provide them.

[Coldfire989]

For the love of God do you psycofants of his have to post everything he does all over all the forums? Do you need to have him pay attention to you possibly that bad?

[Deleted]

Dont you mean "voice many parrot because they dont have their own opinions"? Because that's all I ever get with these streamers. Their fans will parrot anything they say.
How can WoW stop being an MMO? There's absolutely no other MMO out there that has anything else to do at their end game that's not the same as WoW or much worse. Do people even know what they're asking for? Because to me it seems they ask for what nobody can ever reasonably provide them.

Care to please point me to where he or any other youtuber/streamer initiated the current shit show of a social media crisis at Blizz hands? In return I can point you to dozens of threads in this very forum foreseeing the current situation when BfA was still in beta. We can then come again to the hen/egg question, your frustration maybe aside by then.

Also - only because everyone is trying to sell crap doesn’t mean people should accept the best of crap as something fantastic, which it isn’t.