[8.1 Spoilers] Sylvanas Suspicions... Confirmed?

[Maleific]

I get the feeling he's going to kill Katherine Proudmoore.

[MikeBogina]

This will backfire so hard because the Kultirans will lock him after he enters the castle, besides Jaina talking about Calia with Anduin will make her know how to deal with undeads or know if they have some programmation in their heads

wait wait wait, undead prince + Maxrokur Logic = SECRET PASSAGEWAYS!


Seriously though, Jaina's hurt right? They just have to use special powers to make him look living and get him to his mother. After everything we've seen of her, I wouldn't imagine that she'd lock him up, but embrace him knowing he's undead. couple months ago, she thought her whole family was dead, she'd probably jump at the chance to see her oldest baby one more time... and then die... happy(kinda like han solo)

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I get the feeling he's going to kill Katherine Proudmoore.

I bet you that she dies happy, smiling at him

[Eats Compost]

I get the feeling he's going to kill Katherine Proudmoore.

Seems close to a foregone conclusion that Katherine will die, and this is certainly one way of doing it. Like Rastakhan, she’s had “kill me to give my family plot” written on her forehead from the beginning.

[Zandalariprelate]

wait wait wait, undead prince + Maxrokur Logic = SECRET PASSAGEWAYS!


Seriously though, Jaina's hurt right? They just have to use special powers to make him look living and get him to his mother. After everything we've seen of her, I wouldn't imagine that she'd lock him up, but embrace him knowing he's undead. couple months ago, she thought her whole family was dead, she'd probably jump at the chance to see her oldest baby one more time... and then die... happy(kinda like han solo)

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I bet you that she dies happy, smiling at him

Oh still bringing that? Cmon man, Arthas in the forsakens is better than the current leadership, seriously how the hell can you lose against a 18 years old boy in less than 1 patch?

About Derek you just remaind me about the shapeshifting potion you drink with a dark ranger and that could brough again with Derek pulling a widowmaker but honestly even Katherine will know something is off with Derek appearing out of sudden

[Magnagarde]

It sounds to be more in line with "brainwashing him in a confused state", but the ending makes it sound like she'll have him go there, reunite with his family and people, only to then "remote-control" him into attempting to kill them.

[MikeBogina]

Oh still bringing that? Cmon man, Arthas in the forsakens is better than the current leadership, seriously how the hell can you lose against a 18 years old boy in less than 1 patch?

hey, I've been wanting Arthas to come back and lead the Forsaken ever since his defeat in WotLK. I've always felt that after Warcraft 3, that Warcraft was now his story and this would have been the best way to put him as the MC again. Just think your "his knowledge of secret passageways" is not fitting of him xD

About Derek you just remaind me about the shapeshifting potion you drink with a dark ranger and that could brough again with Derek pulling a widowmaker but honestly even Katherine will know something is off with Derek appearing out of sudden

The shapeshifting, or whatever type of alteration they would use, would surely be more of getting him into the city and not being spotted as an undead. Meeting his mother, I don't think it would matter, because her emotions of seeing her child that died so many decades ago would allow him to kill her. I don't think Katherine would care that he's undead and still embrace him, after all her character did just developed/gain the "Love and forgiveness for Family" trait that increases her chances of being assassinated by family members by 25%

We knew that her and Rastakhan were going to die. If she doesnt, it's going to be a huge surprise to the community if she doesn't die. So how is it going to happen? Her looking past his undeath and being emotional instead of logical will get her killed, which will probably make jaina go bat shit crazy to kill Sylvanas(she really doesn't hate Sylvanas as much as she hates the Horde...yet). Though with how Jaina's kinda leading a siege on the Zandalari and being injured after, I think it would make more sense for Katherine to die before the attack.

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It sounds to be more in line with "brainwashing him in a confused state", but the ending makes it sound like she'll have him go there, reunite with his family and people, only to then "remote-control" him into attempting to kill them.

She is a banshee(something Blizzard forgets) and could possibly hide in him and just take over when the time is right or just pop out and kill Katherine herself.

[Soeroah]

Keeping in mind the Undead have very twisted emotions and are often overly emotionally compromised directly after being raised, I imagine Sylvanas is just going to turn him against his family.

"Oh, they didn't even try to recover your body for thirty years, but we in the Horde respect your capabilities and brought you back to life for a second chance. Now your sister, who killed your father, btw, is trying to wipe us out because they don't understand people like you or I."

The way Derek was acting right after being raised it's not that big a stretch for words along those lines to undermine his sense of right and wrong, without any mind control really being necessary.

[Deleted]

Do we know who was the one giving the voicelines about the fight in Theramore to Rexxar? Because I think Derek is going to 'accidently' kill Rexxar (or try to) when he is set free.

[nothingsjim]

Bah, I suppose this is done to make sure Forsaken stays Horde.

Anduin (With may be Calia) will convince Jaina that Forsaken aren't all evil, and try to bring Forsaken to the Alliance, so as a gesture of good will, Jaina allows Derek back into the house, only for him to kill Katherine afterward. Then the "Forsaken for the Alliance" thing will fall apart and Alliance will start KoS any Forsaken, disregarding whatever good intention Anduin and Calia had.

[Zandalariprelate]

hey, I've been wanting Arthas to come back and lead the Forsaken ever since his defeat in WotLK. I've always felt that after Warcraft 3, that Warcraft was now his story and this would have been the best way to put him as the MC again. Just think your "his knowledge of secret passageways" is not fitting of him xD


The shapeshifting, or whatever type of alteration they would use, would surely be more of getting him into the city and not being spotted as an undead. Meeting his mother, I don't think it would matter, because her emotions of seeing her child that died so many decades ago would allow him to kill her. I don't think Katherine would care that he's undead and still embrace him, after all her character did just developed/gain the "Love and forgiveness for Family" trait that increases her chances of being assassinated by family members by 25%

We knew that her and Rastakhan were going to die. If she doesnt, it's going to be a huge surprise to the community if she doesn't die. So how is it going to happen? Her looking past his undeath and being emotional instead of logical will get her killed, which will probably make jaina go bat shit crazy to kill Sylvanas(she really doesn't hate Sylvanas as much as she hates the Horde...yet). Though with how Jaina's kinda leading a siege on the Zandalari and being injured after, I think it would make more sense for Katherine to die before the attack.

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She is a banshee(something Blizzard forgets) and could possibly hide in him and just take over when the time is right or just pop out and kill Katherine herself.

Katherine is nowhere near of the same value than Rastakhan, while both are considered "bad leaders" Rastakhan at least a good warrior and powerful mage, Daelin is more like him in that sense and if blizzard is balacing things, they should kill someone like Fareya/Kurdran/Maiev, besides the horde raised 2 night elves commanders (sirs and delaryn)and I don't think that would be balanced at any point(except if Calia kills 2 somewhat important forsakens and re raise them as light zealots). Also Rastakhan death just serve to give Talanji the throne because blizzard couldn't write a story about him steping aside and to give the upper hand the alliance in defeating the horde and killing a faction leader.

Yeah Arthas as leader of the forsakens would have be a nice twist or at the very least an interesting plot but blizzard is keeping him for his redemption arc yet

[Silverware]

She's a banshee.

[MikeBogina]

Katherine is nowhere near of the same value than Rastakhan, while both are considered "bad leaders" Rastakhan at least a good warrior and powerful mage, Daelin is more like him in that sense and if blizzard is balacing things, they should kill someone like Fareya/Kurdran/Maiev, besides the horde raised 2 night elves commanders (sirs and delaryn)and I don't think that would be balanced at any point(except if Calia kills 2 somewhat important forsakens and re raise them as light zealots). Also Rastakhan death just serve to give Talanji the throne because blizzard couldn't write a story about him steping aside and to give the upper hand the alliance in defeating the horde and killing a faction leader.

I never said it was for balancing, it just feels like those 2 are being built up as casualties of this war.

Though I have to strongly disagree with your idea of balance. When one faction has more than double the characters of the other faction, there's no balance to begin with. Sad to say by there's 3 Forsaken who have characterization at this point and there's more than that in the Night Elves, who is on the low end of the Alliance races for characters(obviously humans are the the top)

Yeah Arthas as leader of the forsakens would have be a nice twist or at the very least an interesting plot but blizzard is keeping him for his redemption arc yet

Such an Alliance player, to think that his redemption couldn't happen as the leader of the Forsaken... you know, his people who he killed and raised in undeath, who would be the people that he would have to earn his redemption most with... but you know, Alliance bias and all

[Zandalariprelate]

I never said it was for balancing, it just feels like those 2 are being built up as casualties of this war.

Though I have to strongly disagree with your idea of balance. When one faction has more than double the characters of the other faction, there's no balance to begin with. Sad to say by there's 3 Forsaken who have characterization at this point and there's more than that in the Night Elves, who is on the low end of the Alliance races for characters(obviously humans are the the top)



Such an Alliance player, to think that his redemption couldn't happen as the leader of the Forsaken... you know, his people who he killed and raised in undeath, who would be the people that he would have to earn his redemption most with... but you know, Alliance bias and all

Can't agree more with you about the lack of development of forsakens characters, they suffer the darkspear syndrome and if you take out the leader, blizzard won't develop more anyone to take the spot, they even joked about that in the book the storm which is a shame because at one point the horde will dependt more of the allied races than them toward the horde.

Hey I am main horde player but let's be honest, Arthas redemption will include a lot of people/factions like the blood elves his most closed neighbor and a lot of forsakens(fans and npcs) will still prefer Sylvanas over him since she was the one who free them and made them into a nation, so his spotlight will be shared by Sylvanas in an uneasy alliance with her to make some balance with the faction with keeping the ruthless but pragmatic nature of the race and the old policy of being neutral but if you bother them or start to hunt them like scourge well pray for your life.

[Magnagarde]

Seems close to a foregone conclusion that Katherine will die, and this is certainly one way of doing it. Like Rastakhan, she’s had “kill me to give my family plot” written on her forehead from the beginning.

Which is certainly a shame, both for Rastakhan and her.

[MikeBogina]

Can't agree more with you about the lack of development of forsakens characters, they suffer the darkspear syndrome and if you take out the leader, blizzard won't develop more anyone to take the spot, they even joked about that in the book the storm which is a shame because at one point the horde will dependt more of the allied races than them toward the horde.

It's sad to think even Orcs, I can only think of Eitrigg and Saurfang(traitor scum!) and Thrall if you count him. That's supposed to be one of the 2 main races of Warcraft. We're getting Garona and Rexxar(halfbreeds) all of a sudden showing their patriotism(I call bullshit) but I can't think of any other Orc characters of the Horde who have had any importance on the story lately. Brown Mohawk guy is supposed to get some soon I think.

With people thinking Dalaryn isn't fair that she goes Forsaken, she's a new character who was made to do that. Instead of taking an already established character(oh and that one warden) from the Night Elves, they created her and the proof is in the book when she's dying. It's sad that the Forsaken who are all about undeath, don't even have that many characters after 14 years of WoW... of killing so many characters.

Why can the night elves use druidism, but the Forsaken can't use Necromancy? Tyrande gets a new power up, logically the Forsaken should... raise new characters.

Hey I am main horde player but let's be honest, Arthas redemption will include a lot of people/factions like the blood elves his most closed neighbor and a lot of forsakens(fans and npcs) will still prefer Sylvanas over him since she was the one who free them and made them into a nation, so his spotlight will be shared by Sylvanas in an uneasy alliance with her to make some balance with the faction with keeping the ruthless but pragmatic nature of the race and the old policy of being neutral but if you bother them or start to hunt them like scourge well pray for your life.

You see them as ruling together, that's what I disagree with. It's like what, 8 years too late for your idea and Sylvanas is almost out of the Horde(going to go be Kerrigan 2.0) putting the Forsaken in a really bad position. Alliance are going to want them dead and the Horde will want to abandon them(unless Anduin's opinion is the only one that matters). They'll need someone who can lead them, someone who knows them not only as undead but as the people who lived. That's either going to be Calia or Arthas, with Arthas understanding them more than she could ever(we really don't need another female leader of the Forsaken who isn't the same as them). Arthas is no longer Lich King or Death Knight Arthas, his last words kinda proved that.
The Forsaken could be on the verge annihilation by the Alliance and a group could make a last ditch effort to break into IceCrown and get his body and bring it back just in time. Raise him using all the remaining Valkyr or whatever tools they have and tell him of their impending doom. He'd be reluctant at first, but decide to save these people. With him the Forsaken would win the battle, and gain new Forsaken to bolster their dwindling forces, maybe even get new characters like Rogers added to them. He'd then be able to meet with the leaders of the horde and intimidate the shit out of them and reaffirm the Forsaken's place in the Horde.

This I think would lead to much needed change with the Forsaken. They now have a powerful necromancer/deathknight as a leader, no longer weak Sylvy who relies on Valkyr. He'd give the Horde a character who would easily be on par with Jaina, Malfurion, or whoever else they have. It would give Christie Golden a reason to write more for the Forsaken(she likes Arthas a lot) instead of always the Alliance. And it would put Arthas in a good spot if we ever get Warcraft 4, as he'd be back alive-ish and leading a group of undead.

[Vakir]

I feel like it technically being free will is kind of the point - Sylvanas sees her allowance of free will over any raised Forsaken as a moral victory relative to the Lich King and the blind subservience that was enforced by him...but she still uses manipulation, deceit, a cult of personality, and torture to cause people to carry out her bidding all the same. So it's kind of for naught and deliberately hypocritical.

Goes hand in hand with her repeating the same behaviors with Delaryn that she herself experienced at the hands of Arthas in Warbringers, before they mucked up the themes in A Good War by adding unnecessary layers of KEIKAKU to it, since having it be "pragmatic" rather than spiteful made her look dumber, not smarter.

Just a standard "becoming the monster" story. People will deny it til the end. Does that mean the endgame for her is the same? Nah. She might realize she fucked up. But it's going to take an absurd amount for her to come back from it without it being a total writing sham. And "total writing sham" is Blizzard's first, middle, and last name.

[Minikin]

Yeah I definitely think Sylvanas has the ability to mind control or "turn" people to some extent, but with that a lot of people like to jump to the conclusion that the entire Forsaken army is somehow being manipulated by her despite that being debunked over and over. Even in this instance she's saying that it's a specific process that takes time.

i wouldnt be concerned about them too much. some people on the forums want to duct tape facts together and they are quite loud. not to mention with how retcon heavy we have been lately, if tomorrow blizzard decides its an MC then it is, but then they could honestly come back the next reset and be like, nah no more and thatll be that.

as for the army. it is pretty interesting some of the lines some forsaken say. it is also interesting how that ties into like what that tidesage goes through, or even the desolate council.

im guessing (could be wrong, nothing to back this up) that certain undead take more authority to rez and maintain a certain free will or completely. while some dont. e.g godfrey, or what arthas wanted to do to us (though who knows how that would have ended as we never got to that point). but then we also have the general ghouls like the ones raised at battle for undercity. totally mindless not even any bodies.

if anything though, i can with faith say and im sure people will agree that sylvanas does not fight fair. meaning if she has the option to mind control, she is not the kind to say "thats not honorable we dont do that here lol". im sure shed hit that button every time its off cooldown. which kinda circles back to what some forsaken say when killed, stuff like "thank you..." or "finally...".

as a can of worms thing. there are also forsaken in the ptr at the darkshore quest line, who when killed say "the horde will always be hers" which is pretty damn eerie given what a warchief is supposed to be. to serve the horde.

[Dagoth Ur]

Like I said in some other thread, at this point I'd bet that once all we've done during this war is scapegoated on Sylvanas and we conclude that she's the real problem, her going too far with Derek and supposedly "mentally conditioning" him will be exactly what'll raise some eyebrows within Forsaken considering some of their core values are being challenged here.

I also bet Derek will get Kathreine once Sylvanas taps his "go berserk" button. Parity law demands it after all!

[Kithelle]

Oh, for fuck's sake. It's mental conditioning in the manipulation and psychological abuse sense. You only need to listen to Derek's (surprisingly affecting, I mean jesus, that VA) lines to know he's got free will. Mind, that's arguably worse because she's abusing him at his weakest point to convince him to hurt the people who love him most rather than puppeting his body.

Conditioning and manipulation that takes away ones free will, confuses them and tricks them into serving her. Exactly what her loyalists claim she doesn't do....

[matrix123mko]

Knowing Blizzard, Jaina will probably go "Oh god I heard you were dead and the forsaken found you and now you're here I'm sure this is safe to let you in!"

...And a random Rommath appearing, telling Kul'Tiras not to let him near any Proudmoore - and you can guess what happens less than a minute after.

Katherine dies, freeing Jaina from normality.

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But hey, what were you expecting? Evil won't be allowed to reign forever more.

Why. If it is dangerous only for one faction, why not? Jaina will live as long as she will not want to kill non-humans.

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So.. you're implying that Sylvanas mind controls her subjects? How dare you? Shes a morally grey character and freedom is one of the most important pillars of her people, the Forsaken! Also Blizzard said that there will be no Garrosh 2.0 that absolutely means that she, at the end of bfa, will be redeemed just like Illidan, who was even less redeemable than her because she has so much good qualities. There is just no way that it only has meant that it will be an consistent story with Sylvanas turning from dark to darker and yet darker actions and in the end she must pay for it.

I copy it without /s.