Forsaken=Scourge 2.0?

[Lelkowski]

So are Forsaken worse than even Scourge? Scourge was fighting against all living because Lich King was controlling them, well Forsaken are blighting people, experimenting on them, etc(like Human Farm where u could bash heads of people with shovel, don't tell "but that was different! Sylvanas told us to kill man responsible for it! Well Sylvanas had a problem with it because person behind this started to experiment on forsaken"), ressurecting people(probably cursing their souls for eternity) and they are doing it from their own will, well we think so, after all Sylvanas is claiming everyone has a choice. So u want to tell me that every forsaken just after ressurection became something that rivals scourge members?

Are Forsaken worse than scourge? After all scourge wasn't free, they were enslaved by Lich King, and it seems Forsaken are doing this of their own will.

[Aucald]

No more or less than any individual of any of the other WoW races who choose to perform evil acts. Their hive-mind and domination by the Lich King is what defines the Scourge - so if anything the Forsaken are their own thing, and not "Scourge 2.0" as it were. The Forsaken aren't a monolith like the Scourge was, as there are good Forsaken, evil Forsaken, and every alignment in between. The evil or cruel might outnumber the good somewhat (which isn't necessarily surprising for a race of Necromantically-imbued walking corpses), but there are variations as well as those Forsaken who actually think what they're doing is somehow for the best.

[sillag]

No more or less than any individual of any of the other WoW races who choose to perform evil acts. Their hive-mind and domination by the Lich King is what defines the Scourge - so if anything the Forsaken are their own thing, and not "Scourge 2.0" as it were. The Forsaken aren't a monolith like the Scourge was, as there are good Forsaken, evil Forsaken, and every alignment in between. The evil or cruel might outnumber the good somewhat (which isn't necessarily surprising for a race of Necromantically-imbued walking corpses), but there are variations as well as those Forsaken who actually think what they're doing is somehow for the best.

yes, as this post correctly implies, the forsaken are more evil than the scourge because they do all the same shit despite having the free will necessary to not do it

[Deleted]

Another "tar an entire race with one brush" post from Sillag people, nothing to see here for those of you with a brain who can think objectively

[Naked Snake]

No more or less than any individual of any of the other WoW races who choose to perform evil acts.

Individuals from that particular race tend to use the plague more than others.

[Varodoc]

The Forsaken are a twisted mockery, things that shouldn't exist, and indeed they cannot even reproduce (even Worgen can), because they were never meant to exist. They are a mistake, and even Garrosh, that warmonger, realized that they go against the very laws of nature.

Azeroth is the world of the living. The dead have no place there. And this will never change.

[Dravec]

Another "tar an entire race with one brush" post from Sillag people, nothing to see here for those of you with a brain who can think objectively

I guess the five Forsaken that don't enjoy torturing and spreading the Blight are cool.

#NotAllForsaken

[sillag]

Another "tar an entire race with one brush" post from Sillag people, nothing to see here for those of you with a brain who can think objectively

the forsaken aren't a race, indeed their existence is undermined by the fact that undead death knights loyally serve both factions, and that the argent crusade employs good undead

[Magnagarde]

Their actions are more or less identical, though the aspirations behind these actions are somewhat different. Most either want no say or don't care about what they are doing, as long as the order was barked by Sylvanas. The best of the good undead humans that were capable of thinking on their own are either not Forsaken, like Faol, or they have been killed at Arathi.

The Forsaken as a whole will never be able to progress their arc for as long as they're stuck with the current leading character as it gives almost no space for them to develop aspirations beyond fulfilling her individual machinations and desires.

[Maljinwo]

Their only real difference is their leader.

Even the Hive Mind looks like a thing now, even though it's a philosophy more than a literal thing

[Magnagarde]

Their only real difference is their leader.

Even the Hive Mind looks like a thing now, even though it's a philosophy more than a literal thing

The hive mind is very much a thing and always was to a certain extent, though not in a fashion of complete mindless undeath under direct remote control. It is rather a form of willing zealous veneration void of any conscience.

[Super Dickmann]

The Forsaken are more evil because they have free will and agency, at least on an individual level. The Scourge is collectively more evil because it's explicitly omnicidal whereas the Forsaken take their time and have limited goals. Undeath in general as a state limits morality in many ways and compels the worst impulses available. That's why I find the constant whining by predominantly Alliance players pushing for Sylvanas to be using mind control especially strange. Psychological abuse and manipulation until the person is broken down and willing to do things they wouldn't consider before is far worse for both the one doing it and the victim/future perpetrator than simply puppeting the body with magic and lends itself to far more drama.

[A Chozo]

Did you just paint the whole Forsaken in a single color?

That's not how mmo-rpgs (as much as the story is lame like in WoW) work. Not all forsaken are Nathanos-like. Different flavors of Forsaken between Voss, Nathanos, Helcular, etc.

[Unholyground]

The Forsaken are a twisted mockery, things that shouldn't exist, and indeed they cannot even reproduce (even Worgen can), because they were never meant to exist. They are a mistake, and even Garrosh, that warmonger, realized that they go against the very laws of nature.

Azeroth is the world of the living. The dead have no place there. And this will never change.

You will all join the army of the damned soon enough!

[dayne87]

No, but I think it's hard for the Forsaken to get over the racism and hatred from the Humans. I mean, during the Horde quest line, there is a case where Nathanos intentionally turns a Tide Mage human into Forsaken in order to leverage him to help them. It's heart-breaking when that mage returns to his hovel and his wife is basically screaming at him to leave them alone, then runs off with the kids.

I see it as an allegory for racism in our world. Imagine if African Americans in the United States were still treated as badly as the Humans treat the Forsaken in WoW. That would be terrible. So in a fantasy world, of course there isn't racism among a "race" (there's no Jim Crow laws in Stormwind), there's instead racism between the fantasy races. Orcs and Draenei, Gnomes and Goblins, dwarves and ?, you get the point. Humans think of Forsaken as abominations (much as some whites thought of blacks before like the 1950s and 60s). It gets old, and I can see where the Forsaken would be like "the humans won't leave us in peace, so we have no choice but to fight."

On top of all this is their sense of mortality. they know they are a finite race (Sylvanas was trying for immortality in Stormheim in Legion for example). They HAVE to replenish their ranks through magic (turning more people into Scourge/Forsaken with plague or whatever) or find a way to extend their lives to be as long as like the Elves. It would be like if there was a Vampire race in WoW - they could only continue to exist by killing humans.

So no, I don't they're "evil" like the Scourge, but I do think they're backed into a corner and for the sake of survival are turning to questionable methods.

[Aucald]

yes, as this post correctly implies, the forsaken are more evil than the scourge because they do all the same shit despite having the free will necessary to not do it

Those Forsaken individuals who do evil of their own volition are more evil than individual Scourge members (who are psychically yoked to the Lich King), yes. But not the Forsaken race as a whole.

- - - Updated - - -

Individuals from that particular race tend to use the plague more than others.

They use the Blight, a biochemical weapon of their own devising - basically a liquid and vaporous acid-like solution designed with high destructive efficacy for both living and undead beings. Forsaken don't (and likely can't) use the original Plague of Undeath, as it was essentially controlled psychically and Necromantically by the Lich King itself.

[Kyphael]

Their only real difference is their leader.

Even the Hive Mind looks like a thing now, even though it's a philosophy more than a literal thing

Yep and the ones who would otherwise leave Sylvanas get shot down. It's totally a cult which is a metaphorical hive mind. Blizzard pretty much ruined the defining attribute of the Forsaken.

[The Stormbringer]

The Scourge experimented on people too (and kept them in spiked cages), had the Plague, and also had living, free-willed members in the form of the Cult of the Damned and higher ranking undead like Liches, powerful Death Knights, etcetera.

Not saying the Forsaken aren't evil assholes, but the Scourge did some seriously messed up shit too.

[Maljinwo]

The hive mind is very much a thing and always was to a certain extent, though not in a fashion of complete mindless undeath under direct remote control. It is rather a form of willing zealous veneration void of any conscience.

Yes. That thing. I said philosophy as I wasn't able to remember to call them zealots

[Deleted]

yes, as this post correctly implies, the forsaken are more evil than the scourge because they do all the same shit despite having the free will necessary to not do it

How does that make them worse?

The Lich King didn't lack free will, nor did many of the scourge who joined willfully. Despite what Christie Golden writes, where the forsaken are just dead humans but just the same deep down, undeath used to carry a very obvious price. The moral compass being eroded being one of the core facets, there's a reason cannibalize is a racial and there's a surprisingly large number of genocidal maniacs with ZERO moral compunction towards pretty rampant experimentation and cruelty.

They are NOT "dead humans", or they didn't used to be. They're not worse than the scourge, they're the scourge-lite and have been since day one. They're literally there to be playable scourge for people coming from WC3. I don't know HOW this shocks people this many years later.
Apothocary Keever has been there for over a decade now.

It has ALWAYS been this way.
Forsaken were definitively "evil" in classic, poisoning fellow horde members to keep their bullshit secret.
Forsaken were the same in Cataclysm, arguably worse since they had ressurected enemies in Silverpine who completely coinflipped their allegiance, suggesting those ressurected by Valks had even LESS free will (or more moral erosion) than those who awoke from undeath without a Valks assistance.

This isn't new, if anything the forsaken have just been toned down since the Wrathgate and been wearing kiddie-gloves for a while, they've just finally came off - unfortunately AFTER some incredibly confusing and misleading writing from Golden.