The problem is raiding

[Deleted]

Of course they are, and always have. Even in terrible xpacs like WoD, the high level raiding content was very good. The only xpac that gave non raiders something interesting to do was Legion - and maaaaaaybe MoP, but that would be stretching it.

damn, all those rage posts about class pruning, gcd changes, lfr, lfd, easy dungeons and free gear everywhere for casuals... all lies!
On a serious note, if they have always done that... don't you think by... 4th expansion people should have already known, that this game is about raiding?? You don't simply play a race game, which has some free mode driving around town, if you don't like racing.. What I mean... WoW has always been about raiding, you could only leave one mode "mythic" for raiders, but that would require same amount of work anyways. Seeing how 25 000 GUILDS have killed HC Taloc, I would assume that raiding is still popular. I mean as of minimum 200k players have killed first mythic boss - that is is just guilds, how many pugged kills? each expansion just increases amount of things non raiders can do.. so by that logic subs should increase - achievs, mog collecting, archaeology, pet battles, brawls, proving grounds, challenge mode/m+ dungeons, timewalking, mount collections, artifact questlines/appearances, secrets, garrison/shipyard (lol, but still), islands, warfronts, warmode pvp.. I am pretty sure I missed some things.. but yea, back in the TBC I can't remember much more than leveling - Raids/dungeons/arenas. Basically the same for Wotlk, but I got some achievs to do and throw in random WG every now and then. and that felt the greatest at that time. Where I am heading - OP is looking for validation from other players on his "theory". MMORPG genre itself has been bleeding players for other genres for years, same as MOBA is bleeding it to battle royal this year. Natural cycle.

[Berndorf]

Vanilla ended up around 7.5 million subs and WOTLK maxed out the highest sub count at 12.5 million, stop fucking lying about when players joined the game when numbers were released by blizzard.

Whether you want to include the last year of Vanilla in the statement I made really makes no difference to it at all. You're really missing the overall point being made in the thread. Also, stop being a clown who curses at people because their opinions upset him so much. That or go to counseling or some kind.

[Drusin]

Why are people so obsessed with raiding being the only good way to get gear in this game?

Hardest content = best rewards

[Wermys]

Problem is not raiding, the problem lies with the player base and the need for constant and an urge for to fast progression.

Not fast progression. Random progression. I unsubbed because I got sick and tired of having to log in and not having a goal. I could raid I could beat the bosses in heroic. But then what? I am not going to hold my breath for something. Now if I had a goal to work towards at the same time then I would have kept raiding. But I refuse to be held hostage by RNG. The thing at least with Mop is that you could still progress with getting upgrades on gear by doing 5 item level upgrades. Instead of this idiotic bullshit of hoping lady rng favors you. And also reforging helped tremendously. These all provided a path for actually progressing your character. But being at the mercy of rng. Fuck that shit. At least in Pandaria doing heroic/mythic level even if I had a dry run on gear I was ALWAYS having some way to progress my character.

[Berndorf]

damn, all those rage posts about class pruning, gcd changes, lfr, lfd, easy dungeons and free gear everywhere for casuals... all lies!
On a serious note, if they have always done that... don't you think by... 4th expansion people should have already known, that this game is about raiding?? You don't simply play a race game, which has some free mode driving around town, if you don't like racing.. What I mean... WoW has always been about raiding, you could only leave one mode "mythic" for raiders, but that would require same amount of work anyways. Seeing how 25 000 GUILDS have killed HC Taloc, I would assume that raiding is still popular. I mean as of minimum 200k players have killed first mythic boss - that is is just guilds, how many pugged kills? each expansion just increases amount of things non raiders can do.. so by that logic subs should increase - achievs, mog collecting, archaeology, pet battles, brawls, proving grounds, challenge mode/m+ dungeons, timewalking, mount collections, artifact questlines/appearances, secrets, garrison/shipyard (lol, but still), islands, warfronts, warmode pvp.. I am pretty sure I missed some things.. but yea, back in the TBC I can't remember much more than leveling - Raids/dungeons/arenas. Basically the same for Wotlk, but I got some achievs to do and throw in random WG every now and then. and that felt the greatest at that time. Where I am heading - OP is looking for validation from other players on his "theory". MMORPG genre itself has been bleeding players for other genres for years, same as MOBA is bleeding it to battle royal this year. Natural cycle.

There's no validation needed. The genre is and has been bleeding players but maybe just maybe the answer to try something new in it. Most of what is new in wow since about 2010 is stuff taken from other mmo's or Blizzard games(as in M+ dungeons which are really just dungeons becoming D3 rift levels which I don't mind though I think it could be improved upon).

[xcitng]

Whether you want to include the last year of Vanilla in the statement I made really makes no difference to it at all. You're really missing the overall point being made in the thread. Also, stop being a clown who curses at people because their opinions upset him so much. That or go to counseling or some kind.

Stop using lies to try to make a stupid point.

[Essem]

I think the game needs more exclusive content that not everyone can do or even see.
The world feels alot bigger and more immersive when you know there is content out there that you cannot even hope to be able to do. Or the "maybe one day i'l get to see it" The feeling of being a "noob" or "new" shouldnt be underestimated. Its a great feeling, that is the hook that the game is missing theese days.

"One day il be like that" is something the game doesnt have anymore, and its a powerful thing.

[Deleted]

damn, all those rage posts about class pruning, gcd changes, lfr, lfd, easy dungeons and free gear everywhere for casuals... all lies!
On a serious note, if they have always done that... don't you think by... 4th expansion people should have already known, that this game is about raiding?? You don't simply play a race game, which has some free mode driving around town, if you don't like racing.. What I mean... WoW has always been about raiding, you could only leave one mode "mythic" for raiders, but that would require same amount of work anyways. Seeing how 25 000 GUILDS have killed HC Taloc, I would assume that raiding is still popular. I mean as of minimum 200k players have killed first mythic boss - that is is just guilds, how many pugged kills? each expansion just increases amount of things non raiders can do.. so by that logic subs should increase - achievs, mog collecting, archaeology, pet battles, brawls, proving grounds, challenge mode/m+ dungeons, timewalking, mount collections, artifact questlines/appearances, secrets, garrison/shipyard (lol, but still), islands, warfronts, warmode pvp.. I am pretty sure I missed some things.. but yea, back in the TBC I can't remember much more than leveling - Raids/dungeons/arenas. Basically the same for Wotlk, but I got some achievs to do and throw in random WG every now and then. and that felt the greatest at that time. Where I am heading - OP is looking for validation from other players on his "theory". MMORPG genre itself has been bleeding players for other genres for years, same as MOBA is bleeding it to battle royal this year. Natural cycle.

I would agree if not for one thing. RIOT
RIOT did what blizz cant fucking do, they WERE bleeding players to other games and to counter that started investing in youtubers/streamers and Theyr CORE game and competitive side.
Raiders WERE the bigger slice until blizz started trashing community driven content in favor of antisocial single players bullshit, raid were the core because they were the crowning and final step of a journey, not an isle like they are now.
They completely missed the point time and time again failing to understand what was great about theyr game and trying to change it into something that it was not meant to be.
Without raiding this game has NOTHING more than a gagillion other games, 5 man content is the standard of every fucking other game and solo content even more so. THis game togheter with FFXIV is the ONLY one on the market that still provides this kinda content, but fail to recognize that raiding is an ecosystem not a lonely fucking istance and stripping other steps from the cycle severely hurted the raiding community, that's why raids are less popular, not because they are not a great content but because the cycle has been disrupted in almost every other part beside mythic.

[Berndorf]

Stop using lies to try to make a stupid point.

Seek out counseling and stop thinking anyone else on the internet cares what you think about what they post or is seeking out your permission to do so. That is all.

[xcitng]

There's no validation needed. The genre is and has been bleeding players but maybe just maybe the answer to try something new in it. Most of what is new in wow since about 2010 is stuff taken from other mmo's or Blizzard games(as in M+ dungeons which are really just dungeons becoming D3 rift levels which I don't mind though I think it could be improved upon).

The bleed will go to jugular cut if you removed raiding from WoW.

- - - Updated - - -

Seek out counseling and stop thinking anyone else on the internet cares what you think about what they post or is seeking out your permission to do so. That is all.

Thats funny coming from the guy who made one of the stupidest threads made in MMO champ history.

[Xaredis]

What you said is actually false (in particular with points 1 and 4), but I am not going to bother to outline why because you're completely off topic. Nice bait though.

(Edit: Also, finding it hilarious you told that guy not to reply to me because it is "not worth" it--yet here you are writing several paragraphs full of strawmen about an off topic conversation.)

I said not worth his time never said anything about mine and their not off topic I claimed he shouldnt bother responding to you because you don't believe in general core concepts found in any strong RPG a claim I made not baselessly but on the grounds of your beliefs stated in other threads. You then claimed a false equivalency by stating "same to you" on the grounds of nothing more than your opinion.

So unless you don't believe those points are the pillars of many extremely successful RPG's of which I'd be happy to provide examples, or you're claiming that TFing/WFing doesn't remove agency point 3 again countless examples of how it does, then yes you did believe point 3 which would make your opinion on a genre of game less valid.

If I spend time trying to earn a certain reward farm a certain item with hopes of it being warforging or titanforging to some degree so that I can have close to the best item in that slot as possible and then some other item titanforges to 395 with a socket all my time and effort spent farming for the previously mentioned item have been invalidated cause I now need that item at, at least 385 to be comparable and everytime I see it drop and its not I'm dissapointed. I know based on your previously mention opinions for somewhere to care this much about the specific gear they have to this degree makes them mentally ill but after playing some of the best RPG's over the last 19 years my brains been configured that way.

[Heathy]

in wrath the pug scene exploded while you could exploit the double lockout and run everything in both 10 and 25.

then blizzard said wait a freaking minute you no lifers, badge cap, raid lock.

now today we are basically back to the days of double lockout wrath where you can run LFR/Normal/heroic and mythic if you can do it, every week, all of them.

so i dunno, the best part of wrath, the double lockout and being able to get saved multiple times is again, a factor today, even more so than it was during wrath considering there are now 2 extra difficulties you can get saved to. not sure i'm seeing the point in the op.

[Berndorf]

The bleed will go to jugular cut if you removed raiding from WoW.

- - - Updated - - -



Thats funny coming from the guy who made one of the stupidest threads made in MMO champ history.

I am playing the world's smallest violin for you as I type this. Maybe that will assuage some of the hurt and rage it has caused you.

[Holofernes]

I've been subbed for 10 years, quit raiding in cata. I log in almost every day but I just level alts and do random pvp. Yet somehow your sub is more important than mine because you raid 2 nights a week?

i dont said that. but i personally think you are a very special person to enjoy what you are enjoying, but i dont make forum posts to tell your playstyle is a problem.

[Magister of Quelthalas]

You see I beleive you are looking it from the wrong angle. I think the reason people dont raid as much as they used is because times are changing. The amount of time people have is less than it used to be. The age of 6 hour raids in gaming industry is going down. Blizzard is just adapting the new community and they are historically been successful considering the game is 14 yo and still kicking.

[Deleted]

I've been subbed for 10 years, quit raiding in cata. I log in almost every day but I just level alts and do random pvp. Yet somehow your sub is more important than mine because you raid 2 nights a week?

You can do that in EVERY game ever. Your opinion has less value than a dog pissing alone in the desert.

[Uselessrouge]

problem is they took out 10 men raiding , 90% of the people i know stopped when they forced us to go mythic .
but since blizzard sucks ass at balancing classes and raids i get why they removed 10men hc/mythic raids

[Heathy]

10 man was great karazhan and zul'aman were really well balanced for 10s imo, i miss 10 mans

[Deleted]

problem is they took out 10 men raiding , 90% of the people i know stopped when they forced us to go mythic .
but since blizzard sucks ass at balancing classes and raids i get why they removed 10men hc/mythic raids

10 mans should not even have existed ever. They fucked up every guild on the planet and turned to be shit just because of the sheer number of classes that already existed. Again blizz created problems where there were none

[Berndorf]

You see I beleive you are looking it from the wrong angle. I think the reason people dont raid as much as they used is because times are changing. The amount of time people have is less than it used to be. The age of 6 hour raids in gaming industry is going down. Blizzard is just adapting the new community and they are historically been successful considering the game is 14 yo and still kicking.

That's actually very close to the angle I am looking at it from. Whether people have stopped raiding due to time constraints, being burnt out on it for any number of reasons or w/e the point is that maybe its time to invest more in real alternatives to it. idk what exactly that would look like in game but I don't think Bliz has made a truly serious effort at it because they are as trapped in the 'raiding is end game' way of thinking as much as the raiding segment of the playerbase. Yes they are sort of trying with warfronts but one easy mode large scenario isn't real content. Its something which was an idea that never really got anywhere other than as a gear catchup mechanism which is all it really is.