The problem is raiding

[kail]

Raiding isn't a problem, having only raiding was the problem but now we have M+. The more endgame options the better.

[Xaredis]

Your obsession with me is quite flattering, thanks.

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I suppose the fact that Mythic raid was cleared in mid 370s gear and 1 stack reorigination array makes it very challenging. Meanwhile +20 has only been done (ignoring timer) in 381 ilvl gear at minimum (and only 2 groups in the world have done so).

But yeah, raids are way harder.

People read these forums I will stick to only breaking apart your arguments, false assertions, and lies both for my personal entertainment and theirs

[Bhorin]

THe highest ACTUAL gear rewarding content is basically +10 cache or mythic raids. If you go by that logic doing a lv 120 raid at lv 60 is even more hard than a +20 so that should reward the best gear right?

Actually, doing a high level key as a level 60 is harder than the raid still, so once again your argument holds no weight. And now I am slapping you on ignore because your replies are completely void of any value.

[Deleted]

Actually, doing a high level key as a level 60 is harder than the raid still, so once again your argument holds no weight. And now I am slapping you on ignore.

Well fleeing and stretching arguments to favor your point of view.. not bad

[Berndorf]

They stopped raiding because the low/middle level of it was made basically shit. Only the high level raiding has something actaully close to what raiding was about. Not even mentioning the rest of the ecosystem raids were part of that has been screwed.
Raids today are NOT the game focus at all and every time they tried to make them less relevant thay have bled players at an astounding rate.
You cant look at Raids as an isolated content or you end up were we are now.
Try to make WoW into something else is not only impossible at this point but it's not even smart, why should you go and compete with basically a milion more games that have a non-raid approach?
It makes no sense

That's a somewhat valid opinion. It might even be correct. The problem is we all speak on and see wow almost entirely based upon our own experiences and what we like about it. I raided twice a week almost year round for 2-3 years along with doing tons of dungeons on other days/nights. I quit raiding for a few different reasons and honestly I have no desire to go back to it. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of people who do enjoy raiding which is fine. I have no ill feelings towards people who raid two or three times a week. I'm just saying from my pov that maybe wow could succeed with something new. I don't doubt wow could go on the way it is but I think currently subs are prob at below 3m in na+eu and will continue to dwindle from here until the next exp is released. Maybe, raiders might even enjoy the new things if they put enough effort into it and maybe subs would even begin to rise.

[Bhorin]

Well fleeing and stretching arguments to favor your point of view.. not bad

lol you have no argument.

High Level Mythic Plus (e.g. +19/+20 currently) is more difficult than the Mythic raid. That is the only claim I have made. You have yet to prove that wrong because you can't. Replying to you is a chore of futility because you just spew out nonsense.

Let's recap here:

Technically higher level m+ are significantly harder than the raids and the are rewards significantly worse.

Reward for higher level m+ is 370 and 1 380 per week.

Reward for Mythic raid is 385.

Higher level m+ are harder than the raid.

3 facts.

[Soon-TM]

damn, all those rage posts about class pruning, gcd changes, lfr, lfd, easy dungeons and free gear everywhere for casuals... all lies!
On a serious note, if they have always done that... don't you think by... 4th expansion people should have already known, that this game is about raiding??

Pruning and GCD affect everyone, regardless of commitment level. As far as PvE goes, LFR, LFD and lately WQs are quite forgettable content, but it's all casuals have to go by atm. I won't mention M+ because it's an environment even more toxic and elitist (in a pug setting, that is) than pug raids. And like it or not, casuals are the ones paying the bills in this game, so it's natural that Blizzard tries to cater to them as well - and fails horribly imo, but that's another story. Only the "hardcore" content is consistently good. Aside from travesties like ToC or Dragon Soul, raiding content has always been top notch; but it sadly comes to the expense of pretty much any other feature or system in the game.

[Torto]

His sub isn't more important than yours or anyone elses but he does have a point the only thing WoW has over MMO's like gw2, bdo, eso, and FFXIV is the quality of it's end game raid content and the sheer volume of it and due to the amount of people that participate in it, its difficulty, and the how long that type of content can take players to chew through it is has an effect on the overall experience of a player whether or not they realize it and its clearly both a sought out and positive one.

To suggest that wow is superior to the other mmos (and I've played them all) just because of raiding is disingenuous. Wow is superior because it has the staff and resources other mmos can only dream about. It has the breadth and depth of content other studios are unwilling or incapable of matching. You are aware other mmos have high end raiding?

Again I'm not saying raiding isnt important, what i'm saying is its niche content and Blizz should be looking at expanding into other hard end game content.

[slickwilly]

but diaper sales will drop during the world first race. Probably baby powder too with all the irritated nuts from sitting in a wet diaper.

[Xaredis]

Well fleeing and stretching arguments to favor your point of view.. not bad

To be fair mythic+ does provide statistically the best gear in the game (excluding weapons) and the higher key you do the more likely you are to get that gear due to the increased amount of loot for higher keys. And that does make sense, since it is the hardest content in the game. People want raid removed when the value of doing it has only decreased with each expansion and that's been doing wonders for the game LOL!

[Torto]

THat was not my claim. Someone else claimed that. Beside With the weekly cash your statement is also false +10 are NOT the hardest content and they give (trought weekly cash) almost the same gear as a M raid

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Elitism? You want to have an opinion on a matter you have 0 stakes on, nothin to do with elitism

I do pvp. I believe all bis gear and expansion stories should be only available in battlegrounds. Oh you don't like pvp? Well you don't do pvp so you have zero stakes so your voice doesn't matter. No elitism here folks!

[Deleted]

That's a somewhat valid opinion. It might even be correct. The problem is we all speak on and see wow almost entirely based upon our own experiences and what we like about it. I raided twice a week almost year round for 2-3 years along with doing tons of dungeons on other days/nights. I quit raiding for a few different reasons and honestly I have no desire to go back to it. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of people who do enjoy raiding which is fine. I have no ill feelings towards people who raid two or three times a week. I'm just saying from my pov that maybe wow could succeed with something new. I don't doubt wow could go on the way it is but I think currently subs are prob at below 3m in na+eu and will continue to dwindle from here until the next exp is released. Maybe, raiders might even enjoy the new things if they put enough effort into it and maybe subs would even begin to rise.

I can see you point of view but what i said before stands.
The sub counts for me is a direct response to blizz decision to steer this game in another direction (ofc there ae other factors aswell) and WoD was the perfect example of this managing to loose 5Mil subs in one exp is no small feat.
What people fail to understand is that raids are only one link in the WoW foodchain, a foundamental one bear in mind, but one link only nonetheless.
For raids to exist in a stable and good state there needs to be many more things in place that nowadyas are not present.
WoW could exist and thrive even in another state but it would need a complete turnover and subsequent loss of everyone who liked and still likes raids ( and group achievement in a broader sense).
If raiders do want to enjoy other things they could simply change game to another of the countless non-raid focused mmos out there, and yet they did not.

[xcitng]

lol you have no argument.

High Level Mythic Plus (e.g. +19/+20 currently) is more difficult than the Mythic raid. That is the only claim I have made. You have yet to prove that wrong because you can't. Replying to you is a chore of futility because you just spew out nonsense.

Let's recap here:


Reward for higher level m+ is 370 and 1 380 per week.

Reward for Mythic raid is 385.

Higher level m+ are harder than the raid.

3 facts.

Ofcourse its going to be harder when its designed to scale forever until impossible.......

Top reward stops at +10, so you should compare +10 to mythic raids which even the easiest mythic boss is harder than a +10.

[Lens Hunter]

I think the best part about WoW has pretty much always been the raiding, save for a few tiers.

[Berndorf]

I can see you point of view but what i said before stands.
The sub counts for me is a direct response to blizz decision to steer this game in another direction (ofc there ae other factors aswell) and WoD was the perfect example of this managing to loose 5Mil subs in one exp is no small feat.
What people fail to understand is that raids are only one link in the WoW foodchain, a foundamental one bear in mind, but one link only nonetheless.
For raids to exist in a stable and good state there needs to be many more things in place that nowadyas are not present.
WoW could exist and thrive even in another state but it would need a complete turnover and subsequent loss of everyone who liked and still likes raids ( and group achievement in a broader sense).
If raiders do want to enjoy other things they could simply change game to another of the countless non-raid focused mmos out there, and yet they did not.

Well, keep in mind that a. I'm not saying do away with raids/raiding. I'm saying cut down on the dev time put into it to some degree. Maybe also into dungeons to some degree since imo this latest batch is kind of poorly down outside of the environments and there's a large number that people barely step into. and b. the new content could also be group content. Just not something which would fully resemble current raiding.

[Deleted]

lol you have no argument.

High Level Mythic Plus (e.g. +19/+20 currently) is more difficult than the Mythic raid. That is the only claim I have made. You have yet to prove that wrong because you can't. Replying to you is a chore of futility because you just spew out nonsense.

Let's recap here:


Reward for higher level m+ is 370 and 1 380 per week.

Reward for Mythic raid is 385.

Higher level m+ are harder than the raid.

3 facts.

Nice deflect from your core argument. You argued with the one post that said hardest content = best gear.
Now you use higher than 10 M+ as "hardest content" ignoring the fact that they DO NOT reward gear, so they are not "content" in this context.

[Torto]

I think the best part about WoW has pretty much always been the raiding, save for a few tiers.

You're probably right, and thats the problem.

[Xaredis]

That's a somewhat valid opinion. It might even be correct. The problem is we all speak on and see wow almost entirely based upon our own experiences and what we like about it. I raided twice a week almost year round for 2-3 years along with doing tons of dungeons on other days/nights. I quit raiding for a few different reasons and honestly I have no desire to go back to it. I'm not saying there aren't plenty of people who do enjoy raiding which is fine. I have no ill feelings towards people who raid two or three times a week. I'm just saying from my pov that maybe wow could succeed with something new. I don't doubt wow could go on the way it is but I think currently subs are prob at below 3m in na+eu and will continue to dwindle from here until the next exp is released. Maybe, raiders might even enjoy the new things if they put enough effort into it and maybe subs would even begin to rise.

I enjoy the new things they've put in like warfronts and islands (to an extent) but systems like these standalone without something much larger to work towards in the background just wouldnt retain players the same IMHO. Unless they were expanded upon to the point of having the same depth and replayability that raids possess and could actually engage me to use my class to its fullest extent but for them to do this blizzard would have to take a huge gamble on something that could be a complete dud as opposed to what has been consistently proven successful in the past.

[Deleted]

Well, keep in mind that a. I'm not saying do away with raids/raiding. I'm saying cut down on the dev time put into it to some degree. Maybe also into dungeons to some degree since imo this latest batch is kind of poorly down outside of the environments and there's a large number that people barely step into. and b. the new content could also be group content. Just not something which would fully resemble current raiding.

The strange fact is that i can agree with you if we are talking about the CURRENT state raids are in. But i dont see it as a raid related problem as much as a design decision derived one.

[Bhorin]

Nice deflect from your core argument. You argued with the one post that said hardest content = best gear.
Now you use higher than 10 M+ as "hardest content" ignoring the fact that they DO NOT reward gear, so they are not "content" in this context.

They do reward gear, and they are significantly worse (as noted in my original comment). Since you cannot keep up with the conversation and think that *I* said harder = better gear, I will just bail and save us both the effort of finding the depths of your inability to converse on a forum.

(Here's a small hint: I was saying the game currently doesn't reward the hardest content with the best gear when someone said it does because raid is the hardest content. Probably won't help you, but worth a try)