The problem is raiding

[therealbowser]

I understand what LFR is and what it does for the more casual playerbase. I'm also smart and mature enough to realize LFR has 0 impact on me or my ability to raid or play the game. People who outcry for the removal of LFR...not so much. Shallow and simple minded people plague this game's community. Ever since the beginning. :'( I don't even touch LFR, but for others it's important.

Haha, hear, hear! I agree quite a bit.

While I do occasionally run LFR on alts, I spend very little time there. Otherwise, I think we have identical perspectives on LFR.

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Catchup gear maybe made it possible late TBC bit otherwise no...you were not skipping tiers
No group was saying "why kill vashj lets go Rob illidan" and if they were then they weren't doing well.

For the most part "mythic" was basically the only difficulty and it got increasingly hard as raid tiers went up. The point I am making is that gear was never a barrier; you could just spam heroics until you had enough badges to reasonably participate in whatever content you wanted to run. Not that it was easily accessible for casual raiders.

I'll add that tanks had an especially hard time since the defense cap was expected for running heroics (and necessary), and hitting that cap typically meant being weak in other statistics just so you don't get crit. Typically tanks would DPS, buy tank badge gear, then start tanking for the rest of their badge gear. Defense (and hit/expertise for that matter) caps are one of the things I miss the least from old content.

Ironically, once they became geared up, raged-based tanks (i.e., non-paladins) actually struggled to hold threat in high end gear in heroics because they didn't take enough damage to build enough rage to do so. At least it is better than it will be in classic, where warriors are the only truly viable tank and they don't have an AOE threat attack in defensive stance.

[rohoz]

Haha, hear, hear! I agree quite a bit.

While I do occasionally run LFR on alts, I spend very little time there. Otherwise, I think we have identical perspectives on LFR.

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For the most part "mythic" was basically the only difficulty and it got increasingly hard as raid tiers went up. The point I am making is that gear was never a barrier; you could just spam heroics until you had enough badges to reasonably participate in whatever content you wanted to run. Not that it was easily accessible for casual raiders.

I'll add that tanks had an especially hard time since the defense cap was expected for running heroics (and necessary), and hitting that cap typically meant being weak in other statistics just so you don't get crit. Typically tanks would DPS, buy tank badge gear, then start tanking for the rest of their badge gear. Defense (and hit/expertise for that matter) caps are one of the things I miss the least from old content.

Ironically, once they became geared up, raged-based tanks (i.e., non-paladins) actually struggled to hold threat in high end gear in heroics because they didn't take enough damage to build enough rage to do so. At least it is better than it will be in classic, where warriors are the only truly viable tank and they don't have an AOE threat attack in defensive stance.

gear was never a barrier.... until sunwell patch came out and people progressed far enough for you to unlock the ioqd vendor which was in the last 20% of the expansion.

[Lane]

I think the devs honestly do not know what could replace raids. They've looked, it seems to me, but haven't found anything that could serve the same purpose.

Rift did something called Chronicles, which I thought were brilliant. They were 1-3 player versions of raids. I never understood why that didn't catch on more since it's re-purposing raid assets for small groups and solo players. A lot of people seemed to enjoy the mage tower in WoW as well which, aside from having to do group content to gear for, was a solo experience.

Raids don't need to be replaced, but the content could be opened up to more playstyles.

[Osmeric]

Rift did something called Chronicles, which I thought were brilliant. They were 1-3 player versions of raids. I never understood why that didn't catch on more since it's re-purposing raid assets for small groups and solo players.

I remember those when I was playing Rift. They didn't give a reward that made them worth doing more than once, if that.

[gobio]

In the context of MMORPG, the OP is half right.
In the context of WOW, the OP is totally wrong.

The concept of gear upgrade is that you ACTUALLY use those gears to fight tougher stuff. So by definition raiders rely on gear upgrade on their goal to reach the top, which is the last mythic boss of the tier.

What makes the OP thinks casual players wants gear as much as hard core raider does? So I do this fancy casual friendly quest to get the max ilvl trinket, so what, the world mob scales with me anyway. So WTF.

Causal wants REAL content. Collect useful and meaningful rewards at their own pace that doesn't involves going back 3 expansion ago one hitting shit. Why do a casual player wants to farm top gear just for it to expire at next tier for no benefit? A raider would care, because it is part of their hardcore cycle.

Look at ESO, leveling up new character in ESO is not the same as leveling new character in WOW. It is actually rewarding doing such in ESO.

[Deleted]

so m+ right now?
what you're asking for is a handout, as that's what the currency model boils down to.

And fwiw trash is fine. Idk how you want a 30 min dungeon without trash but eh. Most dungeons have 3-8 pulls between bosses, and that's not even that much.

I really wish they would bring back progressive dungeons with like 13 bosses what are getting harder and harder as you progress. Open wide spaces instead od current linear coridors what will take atlest 3-4 hours to clear. This is something you can call dungeon not yhis current mythic+ ****

[Killchain]

Yes, let's give everyone max ilvl gear for completing warfronts and daily quests. So they can quicker kill mobs during world quest... Raids are high end PvE content. It is the hardest content pve offers, and it requires the most efford. That is why it rewards players with the best gear.

I think only casuals who want to be rewarded for just logging in are not able to understand that. Gear is not the only goal for casuals.

Btw. Do you really think the same team is resppnsible for raids, dungs, lore, and quests? Get some knowledge about game dev first please.

I agree, why do people feel they are owed the best gear? You can progress in the content you wish to do. But you don't need to have raid gear to complete the content that isn't as difficult to do. The failure I see is there is NOTHING to do at end game that isn't based SOLELY on the system of heart of azeroth and Azerite Power. What happened to the epic class quest chains of old. Hate to say it but its things like attunement quest chains that I think provide a lot of fun content to do.

[kamuimac]

What about a version which gives rewards? As like world quests. With a weekly lockout. You get a weekly cache from doing them with an interesting (+5 of what you currently have) piece of loot,. not azerite gear, but normal gear. Because currently there is no other source for normal gear than raids and m+. World content stops at 340 gear. World bosses give no gear you could work for.

but they steadinly in time do give gear. its all about being subbed. my alts that solely kill world bosses and clear warfront are steadily upgrading their gear. most are atm between 355-360 itlv . which is more then enough to clear "middle difficulties " like normal Uldir / mythic +5 dungeons and "progress" in hardmodes if i only felt any desire to do so (i dont ) .

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In the context of MMORPG, the OP is half right.
In the context of WOW, the OP is totally wrong.

The concept of gear upgrade is that you ACTUALLY use those gears to fight tougher stuff. So by definition raiders rely on gear upgrade on their goal to reach the top, which is the last mythic boss of the tier.

What makes the OP thinks casual players wants gear as much as hard core raider does? So I do this fancy casual friendly quest to get the max ilvl trinket, so what, the world mob scales with me anyway. So WTF.

Causal wants REAL content. Collect useful and meaningful rewards at their own pace that doesn't involves going back 3 expansion ago one hitting shit. Why do a casual player wants to farm top gear just for it to expire at next tier for no benefit? A raider would care, because it is part of their hardcore cycle.

Look at ESO, leveling up new character in ESO is not the same as leveling new character in WOW. It is actually rewarding doing such in ESO.

because steady gear progress is core of any mmorpg. without this people could as well unsub the moment they get to the "barrier" gear levels .

without steady gear progress game is dead . simple as that.

and yet ESO is scrapping the bottom of barrel with barely any players and WoW is still the most popular mmorpg on the market.

so why propose systems from game that is barely alive and attract hardly any players ?

[Silver2139]

I agree with the original post. As an adult with less and less free time, I can't commit to raiding at all anymore. I used to love it, but now the thought of having to spend nights on end to down a boss, is horrifying and feels like a lot of wasted time. I'd much rather do other stuff where I can actually complete something in an hour or 2. For me the questing and exploration is key these days.
But unlike the original post, I don't care about BIS gear; the raiders can keep that. Sooner or later, they'll realize it's only gear and doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. :-)

[Aphrel]

Id love to see more challenging (and rewarding) content outside of mythic raids.

Mythic+ dungeons are awesome, but gets shot in the foot by having a bar on +10 for rewards. Without a carrot most ppl wont push higher than their weekly +10 wich is a shame tbh.

[sam86]

Cata made raids more accessible.

not for any healer, i quit very early in Cata and didn't return until way later in patch 5.1 purely because of healing changes in Cata, they made healing pitiful, even if no one does mistake u still oom mid fights and u have to use cds when ppl are doing RIGHT (not for mistakes, not for stand on fire, no if everything is right, u still oom and use all ur cds)
u get punished just for healing, if anyone does mistake game over everyone f8cked, i heal since downranking in game and i never saw healing that bad, at least in early days i get oom in a trash fight if ppl screw up, not if everyone is right and no one does mistake

[crusadernero]

And what about the more casual, less focus, just have fun style players?

The issue with raiding is the rigid structure and precision that many feels it demands. The developers can keep raiding that way. But if they do, they need to provide alternatives to the players that do not like that style play. And if they fail to provide alternative contents, these players will eventually leave. This is could be one factor for some of the players leaving.

Take Starcraft 2. You have the top end esport level players challenging titles and prize money. Then you have the more just play style at the bottom. The two can co-exist. If Starcraft 2 requires the same level of play as the pro-players, then it will not be as popular.

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Many probably have. So your wish may have been granted.

And I just want to repeat, it is a massive multiplayer online role-player game. Where does it say it requires people to be in large group in order to do so? Raiding was popularize by EQ. EQ was not the first MMO game. There had been others before.

MMO means people playing together in the game, it can be in small groups or large groups. My post did say raiding is "large group" pve.

Nice. Comparing a RTS with a MMO. Pretty much sums up this whole thread.

[Xerfall]

and that WOW isn't Diablo 3.

THIS! Over the last 2 expansions, WoW has taken too much from Diablo that people forgot what WoW looked like, and started demanding more of Diablo's! Even the devs themselves forgot too and started copying everything there! But if I ever wanted to play Diablo, I'd !@#$in buy Diablo!

[HCLM]

I agree, why do people feel they are owed the best gear? You can progress in the content you wish to do. But you don't need to have raid gear to complete the content that isn't as difficult to do. The failure I see is there is NOTHING to do at end game that isn't based SOLELY on the system of heart of azeroth and Azerite Power. What happened to the epic class quest chains of old. Hate to say it but its things like attunement quest chains that I think provide a lot of fun content to do.

Yeah because WoW don't have the most important thing - Long Term Goals. The only goal that means something is raiding or arenas. Where in for example, Guild Wars2 there is huge amount of long term goals. Completing all Fractals, crafting legendary weapon, crafting legendary armour, maxing all mounts and traits, finishing raids, participating in PvP. Even though GW2 has almost no gear progression there is so much to do at max level so you hardly can find time for everything.

[chooi]

No, it's not. The problem is players like you. WoW is not a singleplayer game and it should never be. Raiding has always been the highest available PvE content since forever in this game. Stop ruining this game with your singleplayer attitude. Enough is enough.

If you want solo content take what you get (world quests, lfg/lfr, pet battles, expeditions, warfronts, old raids, alts, professions, ...) - which is a lot already! - or play something else because you obviously don't want to play MMORPGs.

[Deleted]

Raiding is actually one of the problems, simply because it's old. If you look at polls around 80% of the WoW population started to play in Vanilla, BC or Wrath and around 70% before Wrath. Now I'm sure those aren't accurate as people can vote whatever but considering it somewhat true that means most of the players are now around 10 years older than they were back then, which means raiding (mythic raiding nowadays in particular) has become inaccessible due to time constraints for a lot of them.

For example, 10 years ago I used to raid 5 days a week in world 200 guilds. It was awesome, I'd do that again but I can't. Coming home from work, eating something, resting for 30 mins then jumping into raiding for 4 hours then going to sleep just doesn't work. Add to that living with a girlfriend/boyfriend, if they're not also playing and raiding together basically means ignoring them for 70% of the week, and that is just raiding. There are still things to do outside of raiding. These are the points where something like M+ feels like a blessing: it doesn't take very long, it's easy to set up and you can progress your character to high levels.

So what the game needs is to start building contents that don't require a fuckton of time (not to be confused with being easy) and that allow you to progress.

[Soon-TM]

No, it's not. The problem is players like you. WoW is not a singleplayer game and it should never be. Raiding has always been the highest available PvE content since forever in this game. Stop ruining this game with your singleplayer attitude. Enough is enough.

If you want solo content take what you get (world quests, lfg/lfr, pet battles, expeditions, warfronts, old raids, alts, professions, ...) - which is a lot already! - or play something else because you obviously don't want to play MMORPGs.

1) Just because something has always been "this way" doesn't make it right https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

2) Raiding was far more marginal in Vanilla/BC than it is today, yet the game did just fine.

3) Solo content is meaningless in this game, with the sole exception of Mage Tower (RIP).

[Crudence]

So... You want people to log on, go warfronts and do a few wqs and be decked in mythic raid gear? So... After the two days they use to get decked, what will keep them around? Because I used 2 evenings to get an alt decked in warfront gear (only missing rings and trinkets obviously). It was the most boring thing ever, but I got quick gear. Didn't feel good. Felt a bit like cheating.

Seriously, how many people love to get things in game from no effort? What is the point of playing with no challenge? I think the best gear should be from raids. It is the high end challenging content. You have to work for it. Easy content shouldn't reward good gear at all. As a matter of fact, they should only reward cosmetics, gold, mounts, pets, reagents and such. Because, let's be honest, if the most challenging content you are interested in is warfronts, you don't care about your characters dmg and performance. You don't need mythic gear to play something that wins itself. Chopping wood is something you can do naked if you want.

[Tekkommo]

The game does have other ways to get high ilvl besides raiding.

M+, PVP, weekly quests, world bosses etc.

If warfronts stay as easy as they are, they already reward you with too much.

[kamuimac]

Raiding is actually one of the problems, simply because it's old. If you look at polls around 80% of the WoW population started to play in Vanilla, BC or Wrath and around 70% before Wrath. Now I'm sure those aren't accurate as people can vote whatever but considering it somewhat true that means most of the players are now around 10 years older than they were back then, which means raiding (mythic raiding nowadays in particular) has become inaccessible due to time constraints for a lot of them.

For example, 10 years ago I used to raid 5 days a week in world 200 guilds. It was awesome, I'd do that again but I can't. Coming home from work, eating something, resting for 30 mins then jumping into raiding for 4 hours then going to sleep just doesn't work. Add to that living with a girlfriend/boyfriend, if they're not also playing and raiding together basically means ignoring them for 70% of the week, and that is just raiding. There are still things to do outside of raiding. These are the points where something like M+ feels like a blessing: it doesn't take very long, it's easy to set up and you can progress your character to high levels.

So what the game needs is to start building contents that don't require a fuckton of time (not to be confused with being easy) and that allow you to progress.

but you have this content. Mythic + and pvp is exackly this content. lfr and mythic 0 is exackly this content.

people who are still actively raiding dont realise how many of ex-raiders jumped out of gearing hamster wheel but still enjy geting ocasional TF and slow gear progression a lot.

they are just pissed because they are realising how much life they are wasting while still being on the gearing hamster wheel

honestly removal of mythic raiding would be the most healthy thing blizzard could do for the game overall