Preach Gaming - Punish Them! - Lack of Failure Doesn't Prepare For Mythic+

[Mazinger-Z]

Is it opinion though?

It could very well be. While they have access to hard data, for all we know it did move the needle to people stepping up. I know my guild did at the time. There is going to be a mix of people who do tried and succeeded and those who gave up. But not in numbers they considered acceptable. The parameters of his statement are pretty subjective to whatever outcome they expected vs reality.

Without the data and context to support his statements, we've no idea what he meant except that the outcome didn't meet their expectations.

[Deleted]

It must realy piss you off knowing that the vast majority of people play wow like me, just for fun. My God, you are pissed because someone plays wow for fun lol, what a twat you are.

Vast majority of players already quit BFA.

[Naked Snake]

Did it on Normal. Phase One is trivial. You need six people who know what to do.

If normal is easy enough, then why does LFR need to be harder?

[crono14]

Is it opinion though?

At the time, Ghostcrawler had access to statistics of content participation and completion, if anybody could make that statement without it being opinion, it was him, and Blizz did a complete about-face on difficulty almost right away, the closest to an outright admission of “That didn’t work out quite like Blizz planned” we’re ever going to get.

Stuff that is opinion and conjecture is the “Carrot to chase”-story, and the “If you make it hard, people will step up to the challenge”-myth, does anybody have proof of that beyond “Well, _i_ stepped up!” or “_I_ liked it difficult”?

You as assuming they have access to some deep statistical data as well, when they don't. All they see is how many players are completing X content on a %. How many players are trying this content and failing and succeeding. Based on that data, we BELIEVE X to be the case as to why.

Of course it's their opinion. Fact would be something like well we tuned the difficulty up too high and now 100% of groups are failing, so it must be too hard. Obviously there were still numerous groups still clearing the content and maybe having fun whole doing so, who knows. If I look at their same statistics, I might draw an entirely different conclusion and form my own opinion about the problem.

[Clozer]

Vast majority of players already quit BFA.

Vast majority of players quit after Wotlk. 10 years ago..

[crono14]

No, as he stated it as fact. There is no opinion in saying "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. "
While the sentence about LFR is nothing but his opinion. Well, or the opinion he deems useful for his current audience.

Think about this: Greg Street is a game director of League of Legends. One of the biggest IPs on the market. Do you really think that guy has any spare time left to be a hardcore gamer?

I really wonder if Mr. Hazzikostas still has time to play WoW, considering the fact he is the game director of our favourite game.

You as assuming they have access to some deep statistical data as well, when they don't. All they see is how many players are completing X content on a %. How many players are trying this content and failing and succeeding. Based on that data, we BELIEVE X to be the case as to why.

Of course it's their opinion. Fact would be something like well we tuned the difficulty up too high and now 100% of groups are failing, so it must be too hard. Obviously there were still numerous groups still clearing the content and maybe having fun whole doing so, who knows. If I look at their same statistics, I might draw an entirely different conclusion and form my own opinion about the problem.

They FIND/BELIEVE/it is our OPINION we believe the opposite to be true. His word is not fact by any means lol...based on their data, they draw this conclusion. Fact is water is H2O and no other chemical composition.

[Deleted]

Yes, that is an opinion.

While my quote was a fact.

There is a difference between facts and opinions.

Fact: "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
Opinion: "To be clear, the goal of getting more players into raiding is a good one. But the way Raid Finder turned out removed, IMO anyway, a lot of the epicness of what made raiding raiding. I also haven't played WoW in a few years, so it's entirely possible they have solved the problem by now." -- Ghostcrawler

IMO is an abbreviation for "In My Opinion".

Another opinion: Greg Street was a great game designer in World of Warcraft. Yet, he has the same bias as some of the worst hardcore criers on these forums. And considering the fact he designs League of Legends nowadays, one of the most toxic games on the market mainly played by the worst people you ever met, he probably sounds more authentic if he adopts their toxicicity. Or he just really is as miserable as the toxic crowd he serves. I do not really know Greg Street enough to tell if he really is what he pretends to be.

Haha have you played league lately? It is least toxic multiplayer game on market. Riot hardly punish toxic behaviour while reward good behaviour. They even have pretty good automated system what cheks reported players ans auto punish them. I just start playing league coz BFA suck and i havent notice single toxic player. Actualy i meet more toxic players in LFR than i currently do in LOL.

[Mazinger-Z]

If normal is easy enough, then why does LFR need to be harder?

The final bosses, in recent experience, are generally the ones where people need to actually respect mechanics.

Happened on Argus the Unmaker. Collect essences. Kill the orbs.

Happens on G'hunn. Run the orbs, have a target priority, avoid the falling ceiling in P2.

They even remove the 'Mind Control' aspect on G'hunn in LFR where you have to manage debuffs to maintain max DPS, but not get MC'd.

The thing is, respecting mechanics and knowing how to play your class are two different things. If LFR required any class competency, you'd be in very real trouble.

LFR Kin'garoth, you'd get kicked if you couldn't do 6K DPS. I think by the time we were working on H Kin'garoth, but hadn't downed H Argus, I was doing about 13k. I'm fuzzy, but I think for N Antorus, rocking 10K was baseline, and that's a 10 ilvl difference.

[Villager720]

and how is what he said wrong ? ofc some do - mostly those who have a shitty unimportant jobs or are generaly jobless or have no normal social life.

those people indeed enjoy "chalenges" in games a lot.

if we are speakingabout grown ups not 14 year olds.

Or just people who like being "good" at things?
Sorry but equating "liking challenge" with "no life" is incredibly bizarre and makes you seem like someone with low self-esteem.

[Deleted]

That was when casual gaming finally became a thing.

Pre-2008 gaming as a hobby was more niche, and was generally only heavily engaged in, by very devoted players. Games like Shadow of the Colossus were big "hits" in that environment, not just despite their difficult, but honestly because of their difficulty.

By 2008 casual players started overtaking the hardcore, in terms of numbers. The audience widened, and gaming companies suddenly had millions of new customers appear overnight.

They then chose to cater to that much larger demographic, since they outnumbered the hardcore.

Just part of that hobby becoming mainstream.

I should also note, that was also around the time that the original Nintendo generation started to settle down, have families, had careers, which likely also forced the change.

Too bad that classic will have more subs than current retail.

[ydraw]

Preach's reasoning is bullshit and here's why:

Why aren't these same people who don't know how to do anything also failing at raiding? The people you see failing 8-9 keys are equipped in close to full heroic Uldir gear. There aren't many people running around in nothing but warfront and LFR gear at ilvl 365, no matter how much the anti-casual crowd would like you to believe that.

The reason people are failing at these M+ is not because they are generally terrible players. The reasons are 2-fold

1. Timers. Timers are forcing you to rush things. To rush pulls without explanation or planning, to pull before people are ready, to have no scope for communication in the party without using voice chat because you don't have time to type any instructions.

Additionally to that, timers mean that there are no second chances. You largely do things right the first time, or you fail your timer. You can't really afford to wipe at all unless you vastly overgear what you're doing. In raids, when you wipe you just do it again, and succeeding on the second try carries no penalty at all, save for the time it took you to do it. You aren't forced to go back and reclear normal mode bosses before having another attempt at heroic mode.

2. M+ is just more difficult than heroic raiding, period. You need to use more of your toolkit as a player, and you need to communicate in ways that you don't need to in raids. (for example, when was the last raid boss that required an interrupt rotation? There are numerous M+ dungeons that you won't get through without one). The majority of classes don't use any of their utility toolkit in raids at all. I've never felt the need to use Typhoon except on Mythrax or Ursol's Vortex at all in Uldir. In M+ I'm using these abilities basically on cooldown.

Generally though, the biggest issue in M+ is just lack of communication. People aren't used to needing voice comms in dungeons to succeed, whereas timers really necessitate it nowadays. Before timers you could simply take the time to explain what you were planning to do in chat.

[MalfLFT]

Wow... i see you are so deep into his fanbase to the point that you don't see reason anymore. Sorry dude, when he is wrong i'm gonna say it. You can cry all you want.
His opinion on this is as limited as his previous ones were. He doesn't have a degree on game design and he hasn't even played other mmo's to see other approaches. So, neither you nor him know any better and would rather take people's loot away than to understand that there are other options to solve the problem.

Also, lol at getting 25 epics in a week. See, how contradictory you are? The problem are the casuals, but it's the casuals that are gonna play for hours on end to get 25(!) pieces of gear a week. You really are good for each other.

Wow... What a fking cliche you are, because someone disagrees with you and agree with someone you don't like they are a fanboy or a shill. I disagree with preach on several points but when hes right hes right. The fact that you believe everyone should get loot constantly for doing zero challenge content doesn't really make it the truth, in fact its fking stupid that we got to this point.

[crono14]

(for example, when was the last raid boss that required an interrupt rotation?

Uhh Zek'Voz, Mother, Mythrax, and G'huun just to name a few from this specific raid.

[clevin]

I dunno, I had 4 pieces that procced between 355-365 and 2 that procced 345 but with sockets. All done basically being very lackluster in Arathi and during a couple Warfronts. So after a few hours of being 120 my alt is 345 with no neck upgrades sittin at a +15, an 2 pieces of 320 blue gear I never bothered to upgrade. If I can do that in a couple of hours on a toon I havent touched in over a month. I can see someone doing up to 365 with no issues as long as they at least attempt to actually log onto it..

Sigh. I get tired of explaining this but no single experience can be generalized. I hit 120 recently on a druid. Arathi netted me a 370 off Doom Howl and 2x 340. No procs. When my rogue did the same thing, he got a 370 off DH and 4 340s... but gain, no procs.

So, yay, you got super lucky and had 4 340s that procced to 355 and above and two more that gave you 345. You got SIX pieces, all of which procced, guess what? You're almost certainly an outlier. Also, you have 14 slots. Even if you have 6 at 345 and above you have EIGHT other slots. Not two 320 blues.

[deadman1]

Hyperbole. Some people (not saying me) love it. You're projecting what you think is ruining the game is what everyone believes. You're sorely mistaken.

I literally don't have to even come up with a new response because ... If anyone thinks getting better loot from freehold 10 than from mythic g'huun is reasonable or acceptable they are sorely mistaken.

Also just the fact that raid trinkets are basically worthless compared to dungeon trinkets just shows Ion Hazznorighttodevelopgames is asleep at the wheel.

[ydraw]

Uhh Zek'Voz, Mother, Mythrax, and G'huun just to name a few from this specific raid.

You don't need an interrupt rotation to kill any of those bosses on heroic. You need people to interrupt, but you don't need a rotation for it because you have ample people who can do it.

The issue in M+ isn't that people don't interrupt, it's that they all do it at the same time. And on certain trash pulls, that will wipe you.

[Takatin]

In this video, Preach talks about how players can progress fairly far into the game: max-level, 360 ilvl, etc and how that impacts a player's ability to learn from failure and realize what they are doing wrong.

And then they hit a wall when they can't power through content.

Basically, if people can gear to the point where Mythic+ 6/7 is an upgrade without even stepping into M+, how do you train them? Aren't they past the point of training?



I've only recently discovered him and I kind of like how he analyzes things.

I've always had that assessment, especially in LFR. I tanked LFR on an alt (my guild had enough tanks for raid) and I think out of all the times I did Coven, only once did I manage to convince the group that splitting the bosses was better because it meant the healers weren't trying to power thru people eating the spinning blade or the shadow daggers (which were survivable at that level, but you were putting further strain on healer mana to keep you up). The healers we got sorted with were baseline ilvl and probably not their main spec.

I also had macros for telling people how to handle which Titan coming up. Like herding cats it was.

We've all been there. We've seen people flat out ignore mechanics because it could be powered-through. It can sometimes make the win feel a bit squicky. Unearned.

This is the correct way of teaching gamers/new players to appreciate the mechanisms of a game whilst relishing their victories when they finally succeed. Blizzard somewhere along the line thought, that people hate losing and being behind so they smashed the progression/difficulty curve into a stagnant plain of boredom. Why is LoL a strictly PvP game so goddamn popular even though it produces extreme amounts of negativity from players? My theory is PvP is generally toxic because it's 50-50 and it's a harsh lesson for players to learn to accept losses and learn from them, which pushes them even higher to unlock their potentials(that they never consciously acknowledged). And it's still a popular game even though it their character Lore production halted. It still persists because players can express their bottled up frustration in a game and learn to make decisions based with a calm/analytical mindframe. Moral of the story is, LoL uses 1 map for the same game for consistent years and gets results. They did not change the combat/goal drastically because the players evolved quicker than they could.
Blizzard somewhere along the line wanted to play it safe and removed "individual thinking" from the equation and only strives to tap into player's positivity and reward them with instant gratification. And it only got worse with every xpac till the, let's call them, "newer general populace"(their target audience for some unknown reason, I'll be damned to know why?) drowned out the voices of sensible game design and plain longevity of an already amazing feat of an MMORPG. Now here we are, doing the same thing every xpac, venting about their "safe" practices (as if caution achieved anything besides prevention, in this case they are preventing subs).
End rant~

[HuxNeva]

If I upgrade the last 2 pieces it will put me a couple points away from being in the same ilvl range as people who raid Normal. Only difference is I basically leap frogged a large portion of the learning curve. So now when I go into this Heroic raid or M4+ Id be at a huge disadvantage because I have skipped everything in between.

Of course for me this was just an Alt so M+ and higher end raiding isn't something I will take this toon thru. But I suspect for many players this wouldn't be the case.

So where does your currently equiped gear come from?

[crono14]

You don't need an interrupt rotation to kill any of those bosses on heroic. You need people to interrupt, but you don't need a rotation for it because you have ample people who can do it.

The issue in M+ isn't that people don't interrupt, it's that they all do it at the same time. And on certain trash pulls, that will wipe you.

I mean if we are comparing M+ difficulties and raiding difficulty, shouldn't we be comparing M10 and Mythic raiding? You can skirt by on most of that in heroic, I agree, but not in Mythic.

[Takatin]

Mmmm no, difficulty is fine...community is shit, can`t take one wipe, or even one bad pull sometimes. I always find that in online games the hardest difficulty is people.

This comment nullifies my rant lmao. Most of the time when there is a bad/accidental pull in a group of PUGS, RL or whoever wants to wipe and start over. Yeah, screw adapting your strategy to the current situation, "if i cant use my CDs in this specific order every time i will call for a wipe" gg Blizzard