[Spoilers] Lost Honor Cinematic

[Deleted]

All these people talking about treachery towards Sylvanas, I bet you didn't defend Garrosh when he was Warchief so you're all a bunch of hypocrits. If you didn't stay with Garrosh to the end back then, then you don't have anything to say now.

[Timester]

And its naive to think she would just follow the rules

Being realistic, she passed all the years running way from death, she would rly enter in a fight do death when she can lose?

If she cheated, she would lose the Horde. Remember how Magatha lost the tauren?

are you new with blizzard?

Are you? Remember how Garrosh was written by two entirely different teams? I sure do and could have been easily went the other way.

[Powerogue]

I think thrall is still worse, beyond all his flawls and shit he did yous still have the variables:
1- Bald

Yeah that's an instant disqualifier for Warchief, for sure.

[Super Dickmann]

So if what you want aligns with what someone else wants that makes you his or her puppet? When you are fucking your significant other, is he/she your puppet? Or vice versa? Would you say the US was Russia's puppet in WW2, just because they both wanted to stop the NS regime?

Saurfang doesn't serve the Alliance. Neither willingly nor unwillingly. His goal is the same that Anduin has. Kill Sylvanas. Their motives are different. Anduin wants peace, Saurfang wants 'his Horde' back. A notion shared by many, not only in the Alliance. Alls this 'traitor' talk is pure bs. Saurfang hasn't disclosed any secret information to the Alliance (as far as we know), he hasn't attacked Horde personnel (except for pushing Zappyboi in the dirt), he hasn't decided to stand with the Alliance against the Horde in any way.

Saurfang spared Malfurion, spurring the Burning, something even he admits to. He spares Anduin in the hopes he would kill Sylvanas. He declines Horde help when he's set to be freed but instead accepts Anduin's ticket out of jail. He's textbook helped the Alliance at every point he's had the opportunity after A Good War. At this point he's being specifically let out so he can lead to the defeat of his own faction. A faction we're lead to believe will magically side with him 100%, but he trusted so little that he placed serving the enemy king over trusting them to make the right choice between him or Sylvanas, who he hid from rather than challenging to Mak'gora.

@Hardstyler01

I shilled for Garrosh, I'll shill for Sylv. Anything is better than Anduin's Horde and eternal peace until Saurfang gets a stroke and Gallywix takes over when they want to do another one of these.

[Skulltaker]

And its naive to think she would just follow the rules

Being realistic, she passed all the years running way from death, she would rly enter in a fight do death when she can lose?

Perhaps, but Sylvanas also tends to drastically overestimate both her wits and combat capabilities or underestimates her opponents. She engaged the strongest druid on Azeroth in a 1v1 and expected to win (and then tried to brush her impending defeat off).

[Wildberry]

Asserting something isn't proving something.

The fact that you had (bad) comebacks to me dismantling those nonsense arguments last thread doesn't mean they weren't disproven. Again, this is a case of you making false equivalencies and just expecting them to hold up. Unfortunately, they don't.

And since you're apparently so eager to relitigate the previous thread, do I need to remind you of the multiple times you were just blatantly factually incorrect, which seemed to have shooed you away for a few pages, before you inevitably came back with more incorrect and bad arguments?

With regard to Sylvanas specifically "moral ruin" is a meaningless buzzphrase, designed to make your hamfisted analogies fit. They don't. There's yet to be a cession of sovereignty under Sylvanas, and even if it comes, that won't justify Saurfang's actions here.

[Scathan]

True story.

Funny how reflects human behaviour. Better go to war following a psicopath than betray his banner because...you know, have nice colours and all. Ah and its representing us! Us guys!

Except it doesn't. It's a game. If I want to carve a bloody path through enemy forces, ending in a night elf bbq and enjoy every moment of it I can. AND IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT WHO I AM IRL BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT REAL PEOPLE.

[jackofwind]

Because both participants are only allowed one weapon?

I believe that even if she lost a Mak'gora Sylvanas would refuse to give up her position. She would Blight her allies, use the Forsaken to defend herself, and become a tyrant. That's her character - she's manipulative and scheming, and always has a backup plan. She wouldn't just go away, and she would take down anyone who opposed her.

As for the one weapon - yes, one weapon. Plus any innate abilities. Sylvanas' abilities happen to be insanely powerful, grow every time Blizz needs her to do something cool, and centre around the fact that she's already dead. So how does she lose exactly? How is it a fair duel between two combatants?

I get that the story is tropey and uninspired but I disagree that a Mak'gora could ever be used to remove Sylanas from power.

[Timester]

And then Communist Russia carved Germany in half.
Not bad revisionism; just looking at a scope longer than 2 years.

Sure, if you remember that Saurfang burned Stormwind and Lordaeron once before.

[Zandalariprelate]

Poor Orgrim, his horde is a current joke, the same with the alliance of Lothar, both guys must be crying like little girls after watching all of this trainwreck, Garrosh pls come back.

[Jastall]

That's exactly what they are though. There's really nothing else to call them aside from dumb, maybe. I highly doubt you're going to make a compelling case on the Warcraft Youtube comments section being anything but.

But that wasn't the argument. You asked who wanted this. Evidently, a lot of people. You calling them dumb does not change this fact.

[Gurluas]

I'm with Saurfang all the way. The Horde was something you could be proud of, not something that committed atrocities left and right and made it's members want to defect.

Thrall gave the Horde honor and integrity.
Seriously, now that we're getting a War 3 remaster...Go play the Founding of Durotar.
That's the heart of the Horde, and that Horde is something both Saurfang and Sylvanas has brought to the ground.

[Shoggoth]

not something that committed atrocities left and right

You sure about that?

[Deleted]

I warned you. The Horde story is about helping an Alliance asset defeat the Horde.

I really can not comprehend how Blizzard decided to go the same route as in Mists. Once more, we must see the Horde fractured, painted as genocidal monsters and with the blessing of the Alliance, we can restore the Horde to what the Alliance wants the Horde to be.

They said that both factions would be neither black nor white, but instead they have been pissing on the Horde since day 1.

[Villager720]

Sure, if you remember that Saurfang burned Stormwind and Lordaeron once before.

He didn't burn Lordaeron, but whatever.
What are you arguing here?
That assuming someone that's fought your people his entire life is going to suddenly be your best-bud once he takes control of your nemesis faction is a bad idea?
Cause if so, we agree. I highly doubt he'll be an Alliance puppet. I don't think Anduin thought this through in classic Anduin style.

[jackofwind]

I don't usually side with @Wildberry , but do you recall the Horde's oath?

[I]Lok'tar ogar! Victory or death - it is these words that bind me to the Horde. For they are the most sacred and fundamental of truths to any warrior of the Horde.

I give my flesh and blood freely to the Warchief. I am the instrument of my Warchief's desire. I am a weapon of my Warchief's command.

It's an oath sure, but according to that oath if the Warchief told warriors of the Horde they had to murder their own mothers and children for the greater good then those members would be obligated to do so. The Warchief isn't infallible, nothing is ever as black and white as that.

[Wildberry]

i dind't see anything who implies he could not, without sylvanas he can do the what he want, the problem is: blizzard want the war to end? then after sylvanas and the big bad we will enter in a cold war

Blizzard don't want it? then we will continue because the alliance will demand compensation and Saurfang have a war in hands and will not surrender

Old Soldier+Lost Honor seem to portray Saurfang in a light where he begins to understand (wrongly) that his actions in "A Good War," paved the way for the Burning of Teldrassil. Considering he's now working with Anduin, and has had time to reflect on his own actions, I think it's safe to say that he took the wrong lesson.

With regard to the possibility of the war going on if Blizzard wants it: They don't. Anduin is Christie Golden's pet character and we're all doomed to have to fall in line with our spiritual liege of human potential and non-toxic masculinity.

3- Crippling depression

Saurfang's not bald, but he does suffer from this.

She already have barely credibility among the horde, she would decline and people would do nothing for fear, or would cheat and people do nothing for fear or cheat in a way people would not notice

They would. Sylvanas cheating against someone with as much credibility as Saurfang had would have been a turning point against her. There's really just no way for her to dodge that fact.

And its naive to think she would just follow the rules

I don't expect her to, but it just smacks of Saurfang apologetics when people pretend there won't be consequences for her breaking those rules.

Being realistic, she passed all the years running way from death, she would rly enter in a fight do death when she can lose?

She also hasn't been subject to Orcish institutions all of those years. Even during her time with the Horde, she was largely a bolt-on a continent away. Now that she's Warchief, she's subject to every single one of those. She really doesn't have a choice.

She can decline, and lose the position. Or she can accept, cheat and then lose the position.

[Powerogue]

With regard to Sylvanas specifically "moral ruin" is a meaningless buzzphrase, designed to make your hamfisted analogies fit. They don't. There's yet to be a cession of sovereignty under Sylvanas, and even if it comes, that won't justify Saurfang's actions here.

"Moral ruin is a meaningless buzzphrase" -wildberry
"Slaughter of innocents is a meaningless buzzphrase" -still wildberry

I do have to ask, would anything convince you that Sylvanas needs to be stopped? You've tiptoed and made excuses at every possible opportunity to avoid answering the question when it came to Garrosh, making sure to always avoid outright stating what you were implying, which was "No, our glorious leader could sell us all to the Legion, Old Gods, and murlocs as sacrifices simultaneously, killing us all and destroying the world, and they would still be in the right for it, 'cause they're the leader and leaders get to do whatever the hell they want."

[Terminatrix]

might be a traitor to the ranks of sylvanas but he will be a hero to the true hordes

[Skulltaker]

Saurfang spared Malfurion, spurring the Burning, something even he admits to. He spares Anduin in the hopes he would kill Sylvanas. He declines Horde help when he's set to be freed but instead accepts Anduin's ticket out of jail. He's textbook helped the Alliance at every point he's had the opportunity after A Good War. At this point he's being specifically let out so he can lead to the defeat of his own faction. A faction we're lead to believe will magically side with him 100%, but he trusted so little that he placed serving the enemy king over trusting them to make the right choice between him or Sylvanas, who he hid from rather than challenging to Mak'gora.

He can believe what he wants. Sylvanas not planning to burn the tree from the beginning hinges on us (and her followers) believing what she says to be true. Which you shouldn't. She's a liar, and a cheat. She knew fully well that Saurfang would spare him, and made him a scapegoat.

He declines Horde help because he knows they would take him back to the Horde that he doesn't want to be a part of anymore. And he helped the Alliance where, exactly? At best, he didn't do anything to stop them, but that isn't helping them, sorry.

I doubt the Horde would follow him 100%. I'd assume if you'd let the players decide, there'd be a somewhat even split. He is being led out because he can muster additional forces towards the effort of killing Sylvanas. Destroying the Horde (so far) isn't the Alliance's goal. It is to end a proven threat to all life on Azeroth, both Alliance, Horde and neutral.

And again, he didn't serve the enemy king, no matter how often you repeat it =)