Fun Times with Derek

[Wildberry]

Garrosh problem was that he openly went against other horde members, until he has just mana bombing alliance no one had any more issues with it than they do with Sylvanas

This myth that Garrosh was only ousted because "he went against other Horde members" is just that. A myth. Prior to Theramore, Garrosh's underlings were already disobeying him right and left. Defying direct orders, leveraging loyalty to force him to do things (in violation of the Blood Oath), threatening to assassinate him, denying his legitimacy, etc.

When they knew Theramore was being attacked (but weren't aware of the mana bomb), he was betrayed outright by Baine, and there was a subversive, secret meeting held against him. Not to mention, more people disobeying direct orders.

After Theramore, we see more leveraging of loyalty to force policy change, another secret meeting in which participants openly fantasize about his ousting, and so on.

By the time Garrosh started clamping down on dissent in full, much of the Horde was in treasonous territory. By the time Garrosh formed the "True Horde" as a distinct political entity, much of the Horde had already been in open rebellion.

Until Go'el comes back to take the warchief seat, I still can't believe we sacrifice Garrosh for all of this crap, I still remember when the alliance alsl hated king chin because he was a warmonger and not a pacifist like Bolvar.

The fact that Thrall is even a viable candidate for Warchief at this point is disgusting on a few levels. They really should've stuck with Garrosh. The Horde's been an absolute mess ever since.

- - - Updated - - -

Blaine for warchief!!

Of course the people supporting Baine, the traitor and Alliance collaborator, for Warchief are Alliance. Of course.

[Super Dickmann]

So much talk about the morality of the plan, but not one person to stand up and say "But Warchief, this plan is retarded!"

[Arrashi]

I hope that sylvanas will simply put a bomb in his stomach.

"Mother...sister...i...i...I AM BOMB !"
"A BOMB !"

[steelballfc]

Derek : there must always be ( insert Forsaken leader title )

[Techno-Druid]

I've considered a time jump, but there are a few things that give me pause:
1.) What does the technology jump look like? Too far ahead (ie, industrialized Stormwind) and it really won't feel much like Warcraft anymore.
2.) A lot of people are anchored to established characters and plots. It's a shame that they've been so thoroughly mangled.

I could see a dark age setting where Azeroth has basically regressed to ancient technology or something. Maybe with post-Kaja'mite goblins and dwarf-level tech gnomes (only having gunpowder and basic vehicles).

I used to roll my eyes at the WCIII purists who took shots at WoWs lore. Even when things I pretty strongly disagreed with happened, the quality of the story as a whole, I felt, was largely consistent.

At this point though? It's completely indefensible. Of course, before we try "Take 2" we'd need an entirely new team, because we're currently dealing with one that thinks Anduin is an enjoyable character.

Remember when people use to hate Richard. A. Knaak's books? Pepperidge farm remembers...

[Arrashi]

I could see a dark age setting where Azeroth has basically regressed to ancient technology or something. Maybe with post-Kaja'mite goblins and dwarf-level tech gnomes (only having gunpowder and basic vehicles).

Lets skip the boring stuff and go right into cyberpunk.

[Wildberry]

I could see a dark age setting where Azeroth has basically regressed to ancient technology or something. Maybe with post-Kaja'mite goblins and dwarf-level tech gnomes (only having gunpowder and basic vehicles).

I suppose it's better than what we currently have, but it's a shame that they've mangled so many otherwise promising characters and arcs.

Remember when people use to hate Richard. A. Knaak's books? Pepperidge farm remembers...

Those were the days. At least his novels weren't really impactful (until "Wolfheart," of course), and everyone agreed that they sucked, so nobody talked about them. Save for of course the <100 post count accounts that would bring up "MUH BROXIGAR" during "Who's the Best Warrior" polls.

[KrakHed]

So much talk about the morality of the plan, but not one person to stand up and say "But Warchief, this plan is retarded!"

The plan is retarded, yes. But this brings us to the in-character question of "What are we even fighting for?".

If the Horde breaks every moral and cultural value it has, it's just selling out to be the Scourge. Who cares if some external force conquers them? It won't do any more damage to their lives, pride, and culture than working for Sylvanas does.

We may as well just join the Twilight's Hammer at this point and end it all.

[Techno-Druid]

I suppose it's better than what we currently have, but it's a shame that they've mangled so many otherwise promising characters and arcs.

Honestly I wish they would just fire the current writing team, keep Golden on a tight leash (she at least has shown herself to be competent in her first few WC novels) and (re?)hire Jeff Grubb ('The Last Guardian' and the Warcraft RPG) and Michael A. Stackpole ('Shadows of the Horde'). They weren't amazing writers, but they wrote some of the better books in Warcraft's canon.

Christie Golden wasn't bad with Lord of the Clans (which I just reread recently), Rise of the Horde, Arthas: Rise of the Lich King and even Tides of War. I don't remember what happened to her writing skills recently, whether it's her or someone else forcing her to write this trash.

Those were the days. At least his novels weren't really impactful (until "Wolfheart," of course), and everyone agreed that they sucked, so nobody talked about them. Save for of course the <100 post count accounts that would bring up "MUH BROXIGAR" during "Who's the Best Warrior" polls.

I'll give him this as well, none of the characters he wrote ever really felt out of character for their race. He never had a huge pool of diverse characters mind you, but orcs were always consistent with how orcs were culturally layed out, so we're nelves, belves and hell, even humans.

Going back to Lord of the Clans, it's actually kind of sad how darker and more realistic things were compared to current lore. The orcs had little this natural bloodthirst and killed their enemies with little qualms, but knew who to kill and spared children, women, peasants, etc.

Humans weren't just Disney characters, but had a pretty repressive society. Blackmoore just threatens to behead characters for just delivering him unpleasant news and characters are constantly forced to respect this military heirarchy.

Now everything just feels like bad fanfiction.

[Super Dickmann]

The plan is retarded, yes. But this brings us to the in-character question of "What are we even fighting for?".

If the Horde breaks every moral and cultural value it has, it's just selling out to be the Scourge. Who cares if some external force conquers them? It won't do any more damage to their lives, pride, and culture than working for Sylvanas does.

We may as well just join the Twilight's Hammer at this point and end it all.

I remain as unconvinced of this now as I was when it was first dropped. Sylvanas has been stitching unwilling people into abominations since Vanilla. She raised the Horde's own dead as skeletons, which, however tactically correct violated at least tauren and orc shamanistic morality. There's no way in fuck that raising some jackass nobody in the room except the Kul Tirans even know is somehow a step too far and a breach of Horde values. You mentioned that Baine is a cuck, but the Horde leaders as a whole are political cucks who prioritize the suffering of some dickhead they don't know over the wellbeing and identical/worse suffering of their own people.

Tell you what about Baine though. His previous dialogue where he called this plan out as being hopeless as well as immoral was the closest I've come to ever agreeing with Baine since his stint as Garrosh's defense attorney.

[Sluvs]

I'm getting some intervention vibes. They might not rebel, but they might sit her down and tell her: You crossed the line, we are not willing to go that far. You either pull back, or you will be put down.

Or maybe something more interesting than that.

Shit, the voice actor did a good job, it was hard to look at Derek during his speech.

[TickTickTick]

Oh come the fuck on. I'm all for removing Sylvanas, but this is just such a dumb shit, created only to add in the drama. Sylvanas or Lich King raised countless of people and I dont remember any of them reacting in such a way. Moreover, the other important figures knew about what Sylvanas' practices were and didnt mind.

An now, Derek is reacting ultra-unique to the raising, to the point of making it simply unbelievable, and everyone is like "THIS isnt right (who cares about hundreds of others)! Something must be done about this (but I hope I dont have to partake in it)!".

I'd say "Blizzard, please stick to your canon and dont make new shit up on the go" but they changed their ways some time ago, so...

As I said, I'm all for removing Sylvanas, but it doesnt help to reinforce my opinion. This shit is ridiculous.

[KaPe]

I remain as unconvinced of this now as I was when it was first dropped. Sylvanas has been stitching unwilling people into abominations since Vanilla. She raised the Horde's own dead as skeletons, which, however tactically correct violated at least tauren and orc shamanistic morality. There's no way in fuck that raising some jackass nobody in the room except the Kul Tirans even know is somehow a step too far and a breach of Horde values. You mentioned that Baine is a cuck, but the Horde leaders as a whole are political cucks who prioritize the suffering of some dickhead they don't know over the wellbeing and identical/worse suffering of their own people.

Thing is, brainwashing and/or torturing Derek into submission breaks Forsaken own values and not just Tauren/Orc ones. Free will was supposedly their defining factor and yet we see now that it's just something to be used by Sylvanas whenever needed. At this point, she shits on all Horde races' values equally, not just those "soft" living ones.

'Course, this was already obvious back in Cataclysm when she took Koltira back to Undercity to "fix him", so it's not like it's some big revelation. Granted, this was a Death Knight, not Forsaken and he's ultimately freed by his brethren, but still. Well, unless it was supposed to be a big secret no one knew about - and only now the Horde realizes that Sylvanas doesn't even care about "her" own rules.

[KrakHed]

An now, Derek is reacting ultra-unique to the raising, to the point of making it simply unbelievable, and everyone is like "THIS isnt right (who cares about hundreds of others)! Something must be done about this (but I hope I dont have to partake in it)!".

Derek's treatment is also fairly unique. There are plenty of Forsaken who are horrified after being raised.

Most of them aren't crucified with dark magic and left alone. Most of them would have other Forsaken around to give them some guidance, even if it was malicious guidance. Of course his reaction is different.

[EbaumsTipster]

The only REALLY dumb thing about this is that Sylvanas does it in a public place, and also tells everyone that she's going to do it... for no reason but to clue everyone in that she's shitty.

[Super Dickmann]

Thing is, brainwashing and/or torturing Derek into submission breaks Forsaken own values and not just Tauren/Orc ones. Free will was supposedly their defining factor and yet we see now that it's just something to be used by Sylvanas whenever needed. At this point, she shits on all Horde races' values equally, not just those "soft" living ones.

'Course, this was already obvious back in Cataclysm when she took Koltira back to Undercity to "fix him", so it's not like it's some big revelation. Granted, this was a Death Knight, not Forsaken and he's ultimately freed by his brethren, but still. Well, unless it was supposed to be a big secret no one knew about - and only now the Horde realizes that Sylvanas doesn't even care about "her" own rules.

Again, abominations already do this. On top of this, Sylvanas never hides that she raises him for an instrumental purpose, much like we raised Valentine in the previous patch while also being willing to get rid of him when he'd run his course. Further, no actual old time Forsaken takes any issue with this. Zelling and Amalia do, and they take issue with him being a hero of Kul Tiras who was defiled, not because we intend to send him as a drone to kill his family.

Baine and the living have no excuse. Lordaeron was much more tactically justified, but involved her raising her own troops and either putting their souls at risk or defiling their remains, both major taboos. No one knows who Derek is. The outrage around him beggars belief. As @keymil says, this is meant to make us see how evil Sylvanas is, but I'm hard pressed to give a fuck. She's already done this. For ten years. Fifteen in some cases. I have no idea why she does it in public either, instead of just doing it secretly.

Additionally, there is the fact that Talanji lets Derek be crucified over a shrine of Bwonsamdi. So much for the hopes of at least someone there either sticking to principle or sticking to the Horde's consistent attitude on this kind of thing.

[Sangris]

The only REALLY dumb thing about this is that Sylvanas does it in a public place, and also tells everyone that she's going to do it... for no reason but to clue everyone in that she's shitty.

It might be a false plan to have someone like Baine, who has a history of warning enemies of their Warchief's plans for the Alliance do something she is counting on and her real plan might involve something completely different. It would even fall in line with their lame recycled MoP storyline. But it's Blizzard so she probably flat out told them her real plan without expecting anyone to potentially betray her.

[Noomz]

And Baine still doesn't fucking do anything but complain. DRAW YOUR WEAPON BAINE! SHOW THAT HONOR MEANS SOMETHING! FUCKING DO SOMETHING! He says it's wrong, he hears the man beg not to be left alone, yet all he does is more talk and just walks the fuck out of the room???????????????????????????

What's even going on with Voss? What the fuck, Blizz? Do you even fucking remember how she was before this? She would've KILLED Sylvanas for this!

[KrakHed]

What's even going on with Voss? What the fuck, Blizz? Do you even fucking remember how she was before this? She would've KILLED Sylvanas for this!

I suppose her dialogue is too subtle for you? Here, allow me to translate.

"Why are you surprised? Sylvanas was always evil since Vanilla, or Warcraft 3. The Forsaken are nothing but tools to her, she's a lying scheming bitch who doesn't have an ounce of sincerity in her bones, and you'd have to be deluded to think otherwise. The 'arrows in her quiver' line isn't something she's changed on. This one incident is just one more atrocity on a heaping mountain of atrocities. What's the meaningful difference between 1,000 and 1,001? She deserved to hang for her crimes years ago. She still does. BTW, me and Garona are part of the Uncrowned. Don't blow my cover, you fool."

[Techno-Druid]

And Baine still doesn't fucking do anything but complain. DRAW YOUR WEAPON BAINE! SHOW THAT HONOR MEANS SOMETHING! FUCKING DO SOMETHING! He says it's wrong, he hears the man beg not to be left alone, yet all he does is more talk and just walks the fuck out of the room???????????????????????????

What's weird is that Baine is actually a seasoned war veteran that has fought against the centaur since the First War, he should more than capable of drawing his weapon or using his bull monster rage to challenge Sylvanas for power and by orcish tradition, it's not others could step in if he challenged her to mak'gora.