AoE Affliction

[muto]

Bring back Soul the Flame!!

Soul Flame contributed a very minimal amount to overall damage. It was getting 30%+ haste with Sow the Seeds talent (3 targets), and Sephuz, and spamming Seed while maintaining Agony’s, Empowered Lifetap, and Reap Souls.

[Hyrican]

It is just such a "clusterf*ck" to play compared to legion AoE but even more so compared to many classes. Strength in numbers and in simplicity is fun for the one having it... Missing out on both... is bad design no matter how you want to fill niches... Some should never be filled that deep in the negative

[Deleted]

Affliction shouldn't be god tier on every aspect.

Oh really? But frost mages, demon hunters, warriors, BM hunters, rogues and frost DK`s can?

But not warlock?

No really, we are not even asking for god tier AoE on affliction, we`d settle for MEDIOCRE dps. Which it is NOT atm. It is absolute trash tier right now.

I got a demon hunter near 370 atm and i absolutely crap on my 379 warlocks AoE. Yes i pull 2-3k more dps on ST patchwerk fight on warlock but next trash pull my DH pulls 50k on trashpack.

Imagine a party with 3x warlocks, all pulling 2-3k more dps than demon hunters can on bossfights. You gained what, 20-30 seconds at most on a tyrannical week per boss gaining 2-3 minuts in total compared to 3x demon hunter party. Demon hunter party wrecks trash with 30 to 50k dps compared to warlock 10-20k. Demon hunter party gained like 20 minuts on trash compared to warlock party. I`m talking about M+ if you haven't noticed yet.

This is reality folks, and its not changing in 8.1 as far as i can see.

[burek]

This is reality folks, and its not changing in 8.1 as far as i can see.

Why were you expecting that to change in 8.1? Demon hunters are having better burst aoe than warlocks since they were added to the game.

[Kaver]

Oh really? But frost mages, demon hunters, warriors, BM hunters, rogues and frost DK`s can?

But not warlock?

No really, we are not even asking for god tier AoE on affliction, we`d settle for MEDIOCRE dps. Which it is NOT atm. It is absolute trash tier right now.

I got a demon hunter near 370 atm and i absolutely crap on my 379 warlocks AoE. Yes i pull 2-3k more dps on ST patchwerk fight on warlock but next trash pull my DH pulls 50k on trashpack.

Imagine a party with 3x warlocks, all pulling 2-3k more dps than demon hunters can on bossfights. You gained what, 20-30 seconds at most on a tyrannical week per boss gaining 2-3 minuts in total compared to 3x demon hunter party. Demon hunter party wrecks trash with 30 to 50k dps compared to warlock 10-20k. Demon hunter party gained like 20 minuts on trash compared to warlock party. I`m talking about M+ if you haven't noticed yet.

This is reality folks, and its not changing in 8.1 as far as i can see.

Legion made you spoiled. Affliction is fine and DH should be nerfed a bit.

Many top tier M+ teams are still using Affliction Warlocks. So stop exaggerating how bad they are. Also, Affliction is a dot spec and shouldn't have burst AOE on the same level as specs like havoc, arms etc.

[Bakis]

Legion made you spoiled. Affliction is fine and DH should be nerfed a bit.

Many top tier M+ teams are still using Affliction Warlocks. So stop exaggerating how bad they are. Also, Affliction is a dot spec and shouldn't have burst AOE on the same level as specs like havoc, arms etc.

Reason top teams have affliction is cos its needed a really high key for affliction to shine with its dots vs duration and there it do very very well.
Try playing affliction low or medium keys and you will feel obsolete.

[Kaver]

Reason top teams have affliction is cos its needed a really high key for affliction to shine with its dots vs duration and there it do very very well.
Try playing affliction low or medium keys and you will feel obsolete.

No one cares about those keys levels. Everything on low or medium keys is obsolete and class balancing doesn't really matter. Those key levels level just don't matter. You can do them without picking any talents on your classes. All that matters is high end content.

[Bakis]

No one cares about those keys levels. Everything on low or medium keys is obsolete and class balancing doesn't really matter. Those key levels level just don't matter. You can do them without picking any talents on your classes. All that matters is high end content.

Pretty sure thats not how BLZ sees it since that would bring 1/10 of the revenue.
They simply fucked up on balancing as usual.

[Kaver]

Pretty sure thats not how BLZ sees it since that would bring 1/10 of the revenue.
They simply fucked up on balancing as usual.

If you’re doing low/medium keys and your problem is that mobs are dying too fast then it means you have outgeared/outpowered the content. Try to do more difficult content that actually fits your ilvl instead of playing the game in easy mode.

Balancing is fine. Affliction is an amazing spec but it shouldn’t have burst AOE just like Shadow Priest shouldn’t have burst AOE. They are dot specs.

[Deleted]

remove shard cost for SoC

[Deleted]

If you’re doing low/medium keys and your problem is that mobs are dying too fast then it means you have outgeared/outpowered the content. Try to do more difficult content that actually fits your ilvl instead of playing the game in easy mode.

Balancing is fine. Affliction is an amazing spec but it shouldn’t have burst AOE just like Shadow Priest shouldn’t have burst AOE. They are dot specs.

Where to begin? First of all, the vast majority of the playerbase is casual and doesn;t do progression stuff like high keys. Second, the only way you're going to get into a high key group is either (1) it's a guild thing or it's a group of friends who regularly do high keys together or (2) you massively outgear the content

Because no-one, no one, wants to risk failing in a high key - but failing is much more acceptable in a guild/friends group because the people are friends and much more forgiving, and they will almost certainly be willing to give it another (now slightly easier) run, or they'll have another equally high key to try.

High keys are absolutely toxic if you have to rely on pugs. For one thing, there just aren;t that many and the few there are almost always put up insanely high gear requirements or some "Curve or no invite" type thing. Because all pugs care about is blasting through the dungeon to get the loot. There is no social aspect, and there is no response to failure other than absolute hostility (and spreading the word around to make sure you never get invited again - this is a dead cert tat the other four will tell any group they are in to never invite you again, and of course, that poisons the well of high-key pugs)

Now, the thing about pugs is that they know nothing about the player they are inviting - except, their achievements, gear and class. The first weeding out people do is almost always class and it's an absolutely no-brainer that if you have an all-star in the queue alongside a niche specialist, you give the spot to an all-star. There are plenty of classes/specs that have no obvious drawback and simply don't have to compromise between AOE and single target: true, they might be strong on AOE but they won't feel like a third wheel on bosses, or vice versa.

And in M+ where you want to beat the timer and a kill percentage, it's just more important to clear trash as quickly as possible than it is to shave a small amount of time off the bosses, even when it's tyrannical

The statement "only high end content matters" is ridiculous - because only a small percentage of players do it. The vast majority of players are in no guild, or casual guilds, and play low to medium level content, and very often have to rely on pugs to so so.

Afflocks are present in top guild M+ runs because they are doing the extreme end of things, where affliction's lame-ass upfront AOE gets to be finally counterbalanced by spreading Corruption and this is the only place that Corruption spread (and manually spreading other dots too) actually does anything. Virtually everywhere else aff's AOE is pretty much pointless because everything is half dead before your Seed of Corruption cast finishes crawling across the screen, et alone the wait for it to sail majestically across the room, finally explode at which point it does a trivial amount of damage compared to (insert random class here) ability to spam instant AOE

The incredibly long cast time, the resource use, the detonation requirement, all these imply that the spell should be really powerful and rewarding once you manage to get the thing fired: that has usually been the way, long cast time=high reward. But instead Seed is just absolute garbage with less reward than many instant, spammable abilities

Hilarously, the latest PTR actually buffs demonhunter AOE significantly. Now of course, by your logic, that should mean they perform pretty badl;y on bosses, as no one should be good at everything. But is DH single target damage as comparatively garbage as aff's AOE is (for many situations)?

Blizz have returned the "strong on some things, weak on others" ethos, but as usual, they haven't managed to be even handed over it, you got a mix of niche specialists and all-stars with no obvious weaknesses, and guess what - the all-stars are everyone's favourites.

[burek]

If you’re doing low/medium keys and your problem is that mobs are dying too fast then it means you have outgeared/outpowered the content. Try to do more difficult content that actually fits your ilvl instead of playing the game in easy mode.

Exactly. Or just play destruction if you are doing easy stuff. There's nothing stopping you. You don't need any azerite traits for cataclysm + cdf.

[Narzok]

Hilarously, the latest PTR actually buffs demonhunter AOE significantly. Now of course, by your logic, that should mean they perform pretty badl;y on bosses, as no one should be good at everything. But is DH single target damage as comparatively garbage as aff's AOE is (for many situations)?

just a small thing: the buff is only a rollback of a nerf from a previous PTR-built.

your point still stands, DH, among others, has no real downside in m+:

instant AoE stun
magic purge
Very strong AoE on small-medium CD
option to specc into an immunity
and if you are horde, the only available race just happenes to have an AoE Purge

the only real drawback is being a melee, and seeing how being a ranged dps does not help the struggling speccs right now, that point does not stop the majority of "FotM speccs" to be melee.

[Kaver]

Where to begin? First of all, the vast majority of the playerbase is casual and doesn;t do progression stuff like high keys. Second, the only way you're going to get into a high key group is either (1) it's a guild thing or it's a group of friends who regularly do high keys together or (2) you massively outgear the content

Because no-one, no one, wants to risk failing in a high key - but failing is much more acceptable in a guild/friends group because the people are friends and much more forgiving, and they will almost certainly be willing to give it another (now slightly easier) run, or they'll have another equally high key to try.

High keys are absolutely toxic if you have to rely on pugs. For one thing, there just aren;t that many and the few there are almost always put up insanely high gear requirements or some "Curve or no invite" type thing. Because all pugs care about is blasting through the dungeon to get the loot. There is no social aspect, and there is no response to failure other than absolute hostility (and spreading the word around to make sure you never get invited again - this is a dead cert tat the other four will tell any group they are in to never invite you again, and of course, that poisons the well of high-key pugs)

Now, the thing about pugs is that they know nothing about the player they are inviting - except, their achievements, gear and class. The first weeding out people do is almost always class and it's an absolutely no-brainer that if you have an all-star in the queue alongside a niche specialist, you give the spot to an all-star. There are plenty of classes/specs that have no obvious drawback and simply don't have to compromise between AOE and single target: true, they might be strong on AOE but they won't feel like a third wheel on bosses, or vice versa.

And in M+ where you want to beat the timer and a kill percentage, it's just more important to clear trash as quickly as possible than it is to shave a small amount of time off the bosses, even when it's tyrannical

The statement "only high end content matters" is ridiculous - because only a small percentage of players do it. The vast majority of players are in no guild, or casual guilds, and play low to medium level content, and very often have to rely on pugs to so so.

Afflocks are present in top guild M+ runs because they are doing the extreme end of things, where affliction's lame-ass upfront AOE gets to be finally counterbalanced by spreading Corruption and this is the only place that Corruption spread (and manually spreading other dots too) actually does anything. Virtually everywhere else aff's AOE is pretty much pointless because everything is half dead before your Seed of Corruption cast finishes crawling across the screen, et alone the wait for it to sail majestically across the room, finally explode at which point it does a trivial amount of damage compared to (insert random class here) ability to spam instant AOE

The incredibly long cast time, the resource use, the detonation requirement, all these imply that the spell should be really powerful and rewarding once you manage to get the thing fired: that has usually been the way, long cast time=high reward. But instead Seed is just absolute garbage with less reward than many instant, spammable abilities

Hilarously, the latest PTR actually buffs demonhunter AOE significantly. Now of course, by your logic, that should mean they perform pretty badl;y on bosses, as no one should be good at everything. But is DH single target damage as comparatively garbage as aff's AOE is (for many situations)?

Blizz have returned the "strong on some things, weak on others" ethos, but as usual, they haven't managed to be even handed over it, you got a mix of niche specialists and all-stars with no obvious weaknesses, and guess what - the all-stars are everyone's favourites.

TL;DR

Affliction is an amazing spec which is doing really well. Affliction shouldn’t have upfront AoE. Just like Assassination Rogues and Shadow Priests don’t have upfront AoE either.

Warlocks have 3 dps specs. If you want upfront AoE go destruction for lower keys. Just like Rogues can go Outlaw instead of Assassination on lower keys.

Again, if mobs dies too fast in lower keys then more damage is not needed. Mobs dying too fast can never be a problem. Only if your only goal is the dps meters. If you feel mobs are dying before you get your debuffs up on the targets, it’s the games way of telling you “I know you are scared, but please try to play more challenging content.”




Warlocks have 3

[Deleted]

TL;DR

Affliction is an amazing spec which is doing really well. Affliction shouldn’t have upfront AoE. Just like Assassination Rogues and Shadow Priests don’t have upfront AoE either.

Warlocks have 3 dps specs. If you want upfront AoE go destruction for lower keys. Just like Rogues can go Outlaw instead of Assassination on lower keys.

Ah yes, the "play a spec you may hate" argument

Again, if mobs dies too fast in lower keys then more damage is not needed. Mobs dying too fast can never be a problem. Only if your only goal is the dps meters. If you feel mobs are dying before you get your debuffs up on the targets, it’s the games way of telling you “I know you are scared, but please try to play more challenging content.”

But damage meters are all that pug groups care about. If the mobs are all dying so fast that afflock sits below the tanks you get two things:

(1) the afflock feels like shit and
(2) the rest of the group wonders why they bothered inviting the afflock

It's all very well saying "try harder content" but basically that's ignoring everything I said about pugs, which are basically horrible things where mistakes get you damned for all eternity and the only measure of your worth is how much dps you do.

The majority of the playerbase relies on pugs, and in pugs there's no real place for a class that only shines on bosses - pug groups are just places where they want to blast through the dungeon and get the loot, and that's why pug groups always prioritise invites by giving a place to classes that have stron g AOE and strong single target.

You won;t get an invite by saying hey I knw I sit belw the tank in trash clearances but my top boss dps will save us five seconds there!

Challenging content compared to gear is really quite hard to access outside of guilds/friend groups and the pugs doing it want to invite the perceived strongest all-star classes.

It wouldn;t be so much of a problem is every class to to compromise so hard between what they are best at and what they are worst at, but many simply don't.

[Kaver]

Ah yes, the "play a spec you may hate" argument.

That's how it is for many classes. Not all specs have upfront AoE burst... and Affliction should not be one of them. It a DOT spec. DAMAGE OVER TIME. Again, Assassination Rogue is also one of the best specs in the game (like Affliction), but it doesn't have upfront AoE burst for lower keys either. That's just the nature of the game. Not all specs should be able to do the same.

- - - Updated - - -

But damage meters are all that pug groups care about. If the mobs are all dying so fast that afflock sits below the tanks you get two things:

(1) the afflock feels like shit and
(2) the rest of the group wonders why they bothered inviting the afflock

It's all very well saying "try harder content" but basically that's ignoring everything I said about pugs, which are basically horrible things where mistakes get you damned for all eternity and the only measure of your worth is how much dps you do.

The majority of the playerbase relies on pugs, and in pugs there's no real place for a class that only shines on bosses - pug groups are just places where they want to blast through the dungeon and get the loot, and that's why pug groups always prioritise invites by giving a place to classes that have stron g AOE and strong single target.

You won;t get an invite by saying hey I knw I sit belw the tank in trash clearances but my top boss dps will save us five seconds there!

Challenging content compared to gear is really quite hard to access outside of guilds/friend groups and the pugs doing it want to invite the perceived strongest all-star classes.

It wouldn;t be so much of a problem is every class to to compromise so hard between what they are best at and what they are worst at, but many simply don't.

I didn't read what you said about pugs, because the post was too long.

As an Affliction lock it should be easy to get invited to +10(+) keys (or you can make your own group). The only way you get better is to challenge yourself with more difficult content and everybody can do it if you put in the effort. Learn your class and learn the mechanics of the dungeons (youtube) and it should be no problem.

Gear are being handed to us in BFA so many players are doing +5 keys with ilvl 360+ which is just completely insane. If you have 360+ gear you definitely should do +10(+) keys. Toxic people are around and you will meet them, but that's just part of the game nowadays.. don't take it personal what idiots are saying.

My point is: If you are an Affliction lock with relatively good gear, try to get into dungeons where you can't just overpower and faceroll all the content. I know it feels hard at first because many group will decline you, but that's just how it is.

[Deleted]

Oh really? But frost mages, demon hunters, warriors, BM hunters, rogues and frost DK`s can?

But not warlock?

No really, we are not even asking for god tier AoE on affliction, we`d settle for MEDIOCRE dps. Which it is NOT atm. It is absolute trash tier right now.

I got a demon hunter near 370 atm and i absolutely crap on my 379 warlocks AoE. Yes i pull 2-3k more dps on ST patchwerk fight on warlock but next trash pull my DH pulls 50k on trashpack.

Imagine a party with 3x warlocks, all pulling 2-3k more dps than demon hunters can on bossfights. You gained what, 20-30 seconds at most on a tyrannical week per boss gaining 2-3 minuts in total compared to 3x demon hunter party. Demon hunter party wrecks trash with 30 to 50k dps compared to warlock 10-20k. Demon hunter party gained like 20 minuts on trash compared to warlock party. I`m talking about M+ if you haven't noticed yet.

This is reality folks, and its not changing in 8.1 as far as i can see.

ok bm hunters, frost dks and warriors are crap in mythic + and almost no one wants them in a serious pushgroup, unless you play with friends

WLS on the other hand are still fotm, not sure what you are complaining about

[burek]

Ah yes, the "play a spec you may hate" argument

If you want to roleplay go roleplay. If you want to be competitive be competitive. 'I hate this spec' is as much as an argument as 'I hate this talent', or 'I hate keybinding', or 'I hate using consumables', and so on. A lot of stuff out there you can hate for some reason.

[Garretdejiko]

The StS change you came up with is really silly... The problem has nothing to do with spreading dots. You can spread dots incredibly easily, I can easily keep agony and corruption up on 10+ targets. The problem is our base dots do next to no damage, and require too long to ramp up.
Our damage breakdown is typically
25% Base dots
25% Unstable Affliction
10% Pet
10% Shadowbolt
8% Darkglare
5% Deathbolt
Then the rest is composite from random azerite/trinket crap, 60% of our overall damage is raw single target and only 25% of it is "AoE"

These changes that you've listed are so laughably bad that it's very obvious to me that you don't raid above heroic or clear above +5 dungeons

Remove haunt? Why? Lmao? Why would you remove deathbolt? Haunt and deathbolt are the only talents that make the spec feel half fun to play on single target because you have something to manage and think about.
Honestly just don't make any more suggestions for Affliction in the off chance that Blizzard actually listens to you

Yeah, you are right, I stopped playing hardcore once I realized this game was going downhill.
Overloading a kit with no real synergy is stupid, and that's the reason why Warlocks are in their current state. If it wasn't for the Summon Stone, a slightly less geared mage will take your spot in no time. Also, you don't get to say what I can post and what I can't, the fuck? I don't feel like insulting, but your post is full of butthurt for no reason.

[Eviltroll]

This is probably one of the worst class design ideas I have ever seen.

You should apply for a dev position at Blizzard.

This is is one of the best replies i've seen in a while. well said my friend