A defense of Sylvanas and Nathanos's storyline going foward.

[Tortuga234]

I am not going to lie. As a Horde player I am not particularly happy with how Teldrassil turned out. But as an objective observer I can understand why it went that way, and yes, there is a certain pragmatic sense to it. From the Horde perspective this is a fight for survival against a hated enemy who would see us destroyed. At the end of the day survival is more important than sticking to a misguided sense of honour.

This is literally only in the head of Sly-anus.
As much as I hate baby manduin he was right about "only one wanted this war".
You do not start a war for "survival" when your "survival" isnt even remotely threatened.
At this point I'd really love all the arguments to conclude in one fact. This faction war bullshit is bad writing and was only forced to stirr hype and money income for Activision.

[Raetary]

it's war

a war she started.
an unnecessary war, driven by nothing but paranoia of a single faction leader.

[Raelbo]

Anduin is not HIS king. Alliance is...alliance. Its not a feudalistic society with a sovereign. Genn is a King in his own right. It is not disobeying. As a matter of fact it is the whiny baby Anduin who instead of avenging his fathers death and betrayal just sat afk through the entirety of Legion while neutral parties dealt with the invasion (Silver Hand, Ebon Knights, Earthen Ring, etc.)

Anduin is the High King, which makes him the head of the Alliance. Genn may be a king in his own right, but as a member of the Alliance, flying under the Alliance flag, he is duty bound to follow the orders of the High King.

And, as it turns out, Anduin was correct. The Horde did not betray the Alliance at the Broken Shore. Seeking vengeance for said betrayal was, in fact, an act of war based on an illigitimate premise. Why is it so hard for you to accept that Genn messed up? I'll tell you why: Because if you accept that he was set up by the story to make a set of terrible choices that from his (limited) perspective made sense, then you'd also have to accept that Sylvanas has also been set up by story to make a set of choices that from her perspective make sense. And sure, granted, where Genn might be a bit more circumspect about pulling his punches, Sylvanas has absolutely no compunctions about doing whatever it takes to win, no matter how much that might horrify anyone, including her own allies.

Horde does pretend to be something they're not. The whole "honorable" thing.

Not really. Saurfang wants to be honorable. Sylvanas has pretty much openly stated that "honour" is a luxury that the Horde cannot afford if it wishes to be victorious. And make no mistake, victory means survival. She is totally unapologetically all about winning at any cost. If it's a choice between honour and survival, survival wins every time.

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This is literally only in the head of Sly-anus.
As much as I hate baby manduin he was right about "only one wanted this war".

Pro-tip: If you want to make yourself appear really immature in a discussion, resort to puerile name calling.

And no, Anduin wasn't the only one that wanted the war. Genn wanted it too. The only difference is that Genn didn't understand what that meant.

You do not start a war for "survival" when your "survival" isnt even remotely threatened.

Azerite introduced WMD into WoW. Alliance were working furiously to obtain as much of it as possible. Given Genn's actions in Stormheim it's pretty clear that he's quite happy to do whatever is necessary to annihilate the Forsaken (and any other Horde races that stand with them) from the face of Azeroth. Please don't be disingenuous and pretend that there was no credible threat.

At this point I'd really love all the arguments to conclude in one fact. This faction war bullshit is bad writing and was only forced to stirr hype and money income for Activision.

Well, I would agree that the faction war was contrived in order generate a sense of faction patriotism within players, thus leading to a more emotionally engaging gaming experience. Rightly or wrongly (and I personally believe the latter) Blizzard believes that faction conflict is at the heart of World of Warcraft. If you want to cynically believe that it's just about money grubbing, that's your problem.

[Tortuga234]

Anduin is the High King, which makes him the head of the Alliance. Genn may be a king in his own right, but as a member of the Alliance, flying under the Alliance flag, he is duty bound to follow the orders of the High King.

And, as it turns out, Anduin was correct. The Horde did not betray the Alliance at the Broken Shore. Seeking vengeance for said betrayal was, in fact, an act of war based on an illigitimate premise. Why is it so hard for you to accept that Genn messed up? I'll tell you why: Because if you accept that he was set up by the story to make a set of terrible choices that from his (limited) perspective made sense, then you'd also have to accept that Sylvanas has also been set up by story to make a set of choices that from her perspective make sense. And sure, granted, where Genn might be a bit more circumspect about pulling his punches, Sylvanas has absolutely no compunctions about doing whatever it takes to win, no matter how much that might horrify anyone, including her own allies.



Not really. Saurfang wants to be honorable. Sylvanas has pretty much openly stated that "honour" is a luxury that the Horde cannot afford if it wishes to be victorious. And make no mistake, victory means survival. She is totally unapologetically all about winning at any cost. If it's a choice between honour and survival, survival wins every time.

It is hard for me to accept your headcanon, yes.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Alliance#The_unification
Check your facts. High King in WoW is not a Game of Thrones Dragon Taming Bullshit King.
Keep defending your waifu, but the facts wont change. The bitch fled, purposedly weakening the Alliance.

Victory does not mean survival when your survival isnt threatened at all. There is no need to start a extinction prevension war when theres no exctintion threat. She is totally unapologetically poorly written since WC3 and all the neckbeard nerd fanbois can not see this, because she is edgy and has boobs.

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Anduin is the High King, which makes him the head of the Alliance. Genn may be a king in his own right, but as a member of the Alliance, flying under the Alliance flag, he is duty bound to follow the orders of the High King.

And, as it turns out, Anduin was correct. The Horde did not betray the Alliance at the Broken Shore. Seeking vengeance for said betrayal was, in fact, an act of war based on an illigitimate premise. Why is it so hard for you to accept that Genn messed up? I'll tell you why: Because if you accept that he was set up by the story to make a set of terrible choices that from his (limited) perspective made sense, then you'd also have to accept that Sylvanas has also been set up by story to make a set of choices that from her perspective make sense. And sure, granted, where Genn might be a bit more circumspect about pulling his punches, Sylvanas has absolutely no compunctions about doing whatever it takes to win, no matter how much that might horrify anyone, including her own allies.



Not really. Saurfang wants to be honorable. Sylvanas has pretty much openly stated that "honour" is a luxury that the Horde cannot afford if it wishes to be victorious. And make no mistake, victory means survival. She is totally unapologetically all about winning at any cost. If it's a choice between honour and survival, survival wins every time.

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Pro-tip: If you want to make yourself appear really immature in a discussion, resort to puerile name calling.

And no, Anduin wasn't the only one that wanted the war. Genn wanted it too. The only difference is that Genn didn't understand what that meant.



Azerite introduced WMD into WoW. Alliance were working furiously to obtain as much of it as possible. Given Genn's actions in Stormheim it's pretty clear that he's quite happy to do whatever is necessary to annihilate the Forsaken (and any other Horde races that stand with them) from the face of Azeroth. Please don't be disingenuous and pretend that there was no credible threat.



Well, I would agree that the faction war was contrived in order generate a sense of faction patriotism within players, thus leading to a more emotionally engaging gaming experience. Rightly or wrongly (and I personally believe the latter) Blizzard believes that faction conflict is at the heart of World of Warcraft. If you want to cynically believe that it's just about money grubbing, that's your problem.

Oh, wait, you are right. There is an extinction threat. To Sly-anus alone though, not the Horde. She just had to do some tweaks in the story, right?
Btw Alliance had no clue about Azerite until they found out the Horde are already making weapons out of it. Do your research first.

Infracted.

[Lelkowski]

How about we focus on the actual subject matter instead of trying to conjure a false equivalence hmm?

Well then, in this point we won't agree(probably we won't agree at all ). In my opinion invading Gilneas was unprovoked, and saying it was, is just laughable.
This makes as much sense as my example with Tortollans and Vulpera

You really would have to be very biased, when looking at the overall picture, to assume favouritism. The story narrative is set up to make each faction feel like they're the victims, and it is intentionally done that way to make us resent the other faction. A rational person though should be able to see beyond that.

The problem is, horde doesn't have any big losses, "story narrative is set up to make each faction feel like they're victims". So what did Horde lost? If you really want we can call Lordaeron a draw, it was empty place when it blew up(not counting Alliance), Teldrassil was not.

I am not going to lie. As a Horde player I am not particularly happy with how Teldrassil turned out. But as an objective observer I can understand why it went that way, and yes, there is a certain pragmatic sense to it. From the Horde perspective this is a fight for survival against a hated enemy who would see us destroyed. At the end of the day survival is more important than sticking to a misguided sense of honour. And much though I really like Saurfang as a character, and what he stands for, I do agree with Sylvanas's perspective that he has a glorified ideal of an honourable death. Saurfang doesn't fear death. He only fears a dishonorable death. His flaw is that he fails to consider those that he will take with him.

Except She is the one who started this war, and pushes to it. Anduin wouldn't push for war, he's too "good". Even Genn saw that not every forsaken is evil monster. But then she goes to burn civilians in their home, kill unlucky survivors and ressurect them. She gave them example what she can do, and yes right now it truly is a war for survival where each side would see their enemy destroyed(well except Alliance, if Anduin would allow it his bones would hurt sooo much).

[omeomorfismo]

You know that worgens of Arugal and worgens from Gilneas aren't the same right?

actually they were, and actually arugal summoned worgens under genn order.

[Aeula]

The only defense I have for Sylvanas is “At least she’s not Baine or Saurfang” *Shrug*.

She’d have to do something pretty bad for me to want either of them over her.

[Dazmalak]

Can we stop using real life morality to try and make sense of the actions of video game characters and their motivations in a fantasy/sci-fi/parody universe? The fact that Sylvanas draws such ire and praise from either side shows that she's 1000x more interesting than any other character in WoW atm. Why would you want to get rid of that? What would you replace that with? BBEG#148 from yet another alien planet, or Old God #7 1/2 that was hiding underneath Stormwind [I]the whole time[I]? None of you have any damn idea what you would do if you were in any of these characters shoes because it fundamentally doesn't make any sense and I don't think it's supposed to. WoW is the Saturday morning cartoon of video games, it's bright and flashy colors to enjoy and have fun, not a lesson on morality.

[Super Dickmann]

The only thing Sylvanas could do to get me to flip is to become more of an Alliance proxy than her opposition. It doesn't matter how terrible she is when the alternative is Anduin's friendship circle, guest starring Baine and Saurfang.

This is your daily reminder that the muh honor Horde has the same issue as the current Alliance. It has no proactivity, no motivation. It has no forward momentum. There's a reason it's never had a plot of its own but has only done a million versions of wrestling with its past, because its past as a proactive, even if villainous actor are what's actually interesting. Conflict creates plot. A world of peace and harmony is great for the people in the setting, but they don't exist. We do, and to be entertained, we require plot and therefore conflict.

[Lelkowski]

actually they were, and actually arugal summoned worgens under genn order.

Arugal summoned those worgens to combat scourge yep, but then after they started to attack Gilneans, Genn just closed their borders again and left them to attack travelers etc. It's not like they were coming from behind the wall. Arugal's worgens and Gilneans worgens that we play aren't the same.
But still, Genn gave an order, so he caused problems with worgens in Eastern Kingdoms.

[Dellis0991]

No, I think he meant all of us, Horde and Alliance alike.

Yes, of course his objective was only to wipe out Sylvanas and the Forsaken, but given that Azeroth was on the brink of annihilation at the hands of the legion, that was an utterly reckless action that not only would have significantly weakened the Horde and their ability to fight the Legion, but also would likely have sparked a war between the factions which would have been catastrophic to our attempts to stop the Legion. The only reason that outright war between the Horde and the Alliance did not happen was because of the impending threat posed by the Legion, but if Genn had succeeded in assassinating the Horde Warchief, even that would have not stayed the Horde.

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The attack on Gilneas was hardly unprovoked...

Honestly though, trying to trace back who started what is an futile exercise. My point was to show how no single incident can be viewed in isolation and, ironically, you just proved my point.

The same logic that justifies Genn's actions in Stormheim, justifies Sylvanas' actions against Teldrassil.

If you want a rational, unbiased, objective assessment it's this: Someone needed to let go before things escalated to the point of Teldrassil. You're right that Gilneas should not have happened, but what you forget is that that was a Horde assault directed by Garrosh, who was brought to justice for his crimes. Genn should have dropped the matter there, especially given the impending Legion threat. Legion was an opportunity for the Horde and Alliance to bury the proverbial hatchet, settle their differences and enter a new era of peace and stability. But instead the actions of a single small group led by Genn and Rogers, totally screwed everything up.

Stormheim did not need to happen. Genn was out for revenge when cooler heads should have prevailed, and everything that has happened in BfA is a consequence of that action.

Gilneas wasn't a threat to the forsaken in anyway, they was dealing with the fallout of a rebellion and feral worgen turning the populace into monsters. Gilneas gave no fucks about the outside world if they did then Pyrewood wouldn't have happen in the first place. If the world burned Gilneas still wouldn't gave a damn about the AvH.

[Deleted]

Regardless of her actions.

She'll be killed in 9.0 or 9.1 depending if they choose the Guldan or Garrosh model of expasion-bridge antagonist

[Zandalariprelate]

The only defense I have for Sylvanas is “At least she’s not Baine or Saurfang” *Shrug*.

She’d have to do something pretty bad for me to want either of them over her.

So far blizzard is trying to push that, which doesn't make any sense considering Greymane was being set up to be another warhawk and the attack on stormhein he got away without any repercusion but now the alliance is being whitewashing just like king chin after wanting to kill the horde leadership in undercity, well still hoping for Talanji take the seat before senile Saurfang because with his death flag, you can be sure the broken shore scenario will repest again with another faction war

[omeomorfismo]

Arugal summoned those worgens to combat scourge yep, but then after they started to attack Gilneans, Genn just closed their borders again and left them to attack travelers etc. It's not like they were coming from behind the wall. Arugal's worgens and Gilneans worgens that we play aren't the same.
But still, Genn gave an order, so he caused problems with worgens in Eastern Kingdoms.

? they are all alpha prime "breed". clearly then all those worgens created multiple packs, but still all have the same origin

[Rustedsaint]

Op is the type of person who would attempt to justify hitler

Infracted.

[Lelkowski]

? they are all alpha prime "breed". clearly then all those worgens created multiple packs, but still all have the same origin

Example was that Sylvanas could invade Gilneas because worgens were causing problems, except that Gilneans worgens were hidden behind the wall fighting gainst themselves, it was Arugal's worgen that he summoned wrecking havoc in Silverpine.

[omeomorfismo]

Example was that Sylvanas could invade Gilneas because worgens were causing problems, except that Gilneans worgens were hidden behind the wall fighting gainst themselves, it was Arugal's worgen that he summoned wrecking havoc in Silverpine.

but actually sylvanas sided with alpha prime's pack and help him to dig under the walls. i mean, the chronology its very wierd for the gilneas storyline but there were always worgens that passed between silverpine and gilneas

[Dellis0991]

but actually sylvanas sided with alpha prime's pack and help him to dig under the walls. i mean, the chronology its very wierd for the gilneas storyline but there were always worgens that passed between silverpine and gilneas

I don't think those feral worgen had the numbers to be a threat to Undercity....I could be wrong.

[Ezekeel]

Some of the arguments state that morality is not important while some others state that certain people/parties have no moral. LOL. By the way, OP has only 1 post in this topic, it is probably just a troll.

[Grythletubs]

And yet it was an attempted genocide (by Genn, on the Forsaken) that led to Teldrassil in the first place....

What genocide? Attacking Sylvannas in Stormheim is not genocide lmao.

Especially after she mass slaughtered his people.

And by the by, Genn saved the world by sabotaging Sylvannas, so you're welcome.