The hate on LFR

[iamthedevil]

Lfr crushed almost all the small and/or shitty guilds out there and drained the recruit pool, now only guild with peoples who really want to compel their time survive and no one is forced to join one just to raid.

Small bosses losing their turf (and many wanna be boss being denied a chance) is were most the hate come from.

I don't think LFR did that, I think group finder just made it easier to play the game. There is no need to be in a shitty guild anymore. Obviously, people are going to take advantage of that.

[nyc81991]

At this point there is really no reason for LFR to exist. It gives the same ilvl as winning a Warfront (which there is no limit to how many you can do while it's up and gear is guaranteed). Blizzard should remove LFR.

[Vineri]

The last I checked, there was absolutely no requirement for LFR or anything else to create long-term friendships or consistent teams.

None.

None at all.

Stop worrying about whether or not LFR stops people you don't know from meeting other people you don't know, and start realizing that what people do in LFR makes NO DIFFERENCE IN YOUR LIFE.

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Also, why the hell do so many of you not read the rest of the thread before you start offering your 'casuals suck' or 'people are lazy' nonsense replies? You don't add anything to the discussion.

So essentially, "there was absolutely no requirement for LFR or anything else to create long-term friendships or consistent teams"

This is part of the problem. And /agree with that red statement. Sad as it is. Blizzard made a poopie and tried to pretend they didn't .. naughty.

[Lery]

LFR saved this game. Most casuals play and do LFR. Without it, all casuals would quit and the game would not have enough subs. to keep going.

[Deleted]

Sorry but saying that players are not motivated becouse of LFR is player problem is absolute nonsens. MMORPGs are not played for challenge but for experiencing content. Challenge is only part of that. So if you give them entire content in this so called faceroll mods no wonder they quit playimg. It is game job to keep players motivated.

You really think players what look for challenge will keep playing wow? Hahaha no they will quit when they finish content and go play actual challenging game like League of Legends or CS:Go. Those are games what most people play to get challenged not WoW. RPG games are not about challenge.

well, mythic raiding, m+ pushing provides quite significant challenge. I don't mind existance of normal or HC raid modes, but being a mythic raider does not make me want to remove it. There are guilds, who only can see hc raids and couple of mythic bosses. Do you think they would go trough all the pain of progression to kill Ghuun mythic? no. Only 3-4% of raiders will kill if for cutting edge. Why blizz you create something for only couple of % of players?

[Vineri]

LFR saved this game. Most casuals play and do LFR. Without it, all casuals would quit and the game would not have enough subs. to keep going.

Ironic, LFR saved WoW after LFD killed population.

[Heladys]

People who hate LFR for LFR's sake should piss off.

However, people who hate LFR for the cesspit it can be have a point. Blizzard put forth a "raid-lite" experience but didn't provide people sufficient tools to filter out let alone proactively weed out toxic shits who try to wipe fights, ninja-pull incessantly, or intentionally fail mechanics that cause a wipe. It desperately needs a reputation-based system so that maybe you get to be a fuckhead for a few fights but eventually you simply stop getting invites. Instead, Blizzard was far too concerned with the possibilities of abuse, so what tools they did give are limited and hampered to the point of comparative futility.

[shaunika123]

here's my issue with it.

it reduces the number of good players and potential raiders

because while it is a raid, the experience is completely different.

and people will go "well I've seen the raid content, bye"

but it used to be "well I need to get better, and join a guild to see the raid content so let's do that"

and when you're in a guild and you do finally clear normal your guild goes "well let's do HC" and you either succeed or not but by that point you have a taste for it. and then you can keep advancing as far as your skill and to an extent your time, let's you.


but LFR cuts all of that short. because it doesnt incentivize getting better, or challenging yourself, so you gain no motivation. you just go through the themepark version of the raid, where you dont even have to play the game just watch the bosses, and then you're done.



of course I realize that many people wouldnt ever see the raids had it not been for LFR, but it has negatively impacted the people that do. it has objectively contributed to the shrinking number of raiders, and the fact that recruitment gets harder and harder each expansion.


the fact that it's automated and requires no thought whatsoever to complete, is as anti MMO as it could be.

I'd prefer if normal was even easier than it is now, but you'd still have to assemble a group for it. because then you'd be actually playing the game, and the game wouldnt be playing you.


but the problem is, that it's a sort of pandora's box.

you can't backtrack on it now. you already turned your entire playerbase into antisocial, single players with LFR and LFD.

[oathy]

LFR has gone toxic,
feel really sorry for new players who dare ask a question.
that pretty much triggers someone to vote to kick, and a row unfolds.
Vote to kick is being abused, there are so people you can see are clearly not AFK
but once the vote starts those people get kicked. Its crazy you then spend 10 minutes
waiting for someone else to replace them,

all these bad experiences make players hate the entire system, Its really sad
because people like myself not in a guild LFR has allowed me to take part in content
I avoided for a very long time.

the only people they wont dare kick are tanks and healers.

[RoKPaNda]

There are people that are still sad enough to care about LFR? I mean, at this point LFR has been in the game for so long, it's obviously not going anywhere. It doesn't devalue your accomplishments if you raid higher than that, the gear is horrible, and the chance that a piece is going to titanforge to even Heroic level is super low. There's literally zero reason to have any negative feeling about LFR.

As a Mythic raider I love LFR because the existence of LFR justifies the extra resources that they've put into raids since the first tier of MoP.

[Heathy]

I think the idea is to incentivise ppl to move into organized raiding, ppl are given a platform to grow on, thats really it, in a nutshell, its for ppl who either don't have time, don't think they are good enough, can't play their class properly, are new to the game whatever the reason is, if you're doing the LFR and you want to progress then you will look into doing that. its a hook basically thats all it needs to be it just needs to show ppl 'hey this is what raiding is like' and if ppl do it and like it, they'll seek harder difficulties which means either more guilds or more pugs, either way it translates directly into more ppl doing the content, which is what you want in an mmo, there isn't much gained from having raids like original naxx that required you to maintain a significant pace of progression to see the content while its relevant.

if expansions lasted longer all that would happen is the game would lose its top end as they blow through everything and get bored and unsub. today the LFR just keeps the pace going, everyone is pretty much on par with the top end in terms of progression, its just split into the difficulty tiers. so ppl clearing mythic are probably doing so at a rate similar to those guilds who only run heroic. the game is the way it is today because too many ppl were pissed about not seeing the content before a new expansion came along. these days if you want to just see the content, you can do that and you don't need to be part of a guild raiding 3 days a week, although that is still the best way of seeing the content and having friendships etc.

ideally what should happen is ppl level up, do dungeons and then try the LFR, if they like what they see, maybe they will try organized raiding maybe they won't but the incentive is there plain as day. its up to individuals to socialise and take things further, the game gives you a baseline to work up from. its there to give you the incentive to commit if you choose to.

raiding is by far the most entertaining aspect of the game so it should have a mode that showcases this in a way that doesn't require massive amounts of cohesion. the difficult part of raiding isn't really logistics any more its mechanical and comes from heroic and mythic. so if you are a brand new player who wants to 'be the best' you can start small, and work up to it.

[Klingers]

It used to be very simple

Not enough time? No raid for you
Not skilled enough? No raid for you
Not in a guild/lead a guild? No raid for you
Bad reputation on server? No raid for you

But the casuals are the demographic now so they cater to them as they are the majority

This I think is a problem that will never have an answer that pleases everybody.

Serious raiders resent the ease of access and lack of the exclusivity that they used to enjoy. They also have a harder time fielding skilled and committed players due to them having alternative options.

Casuals also ask a very legitimate question as to why the vast majority of their subscription fees are being funnelled into the development of content they will never have access too due to a lack of an ability to commit to the demands of an organised raiding group... Potentially culminating in encountering the antagonist built up through an entire expansions leveling and patch content.

When you’re confronted with two problems like that and not everybody will be happy, sometimes you just have to pick the option that will make the most people happy.

[Azlo]

Wait, who cares about LFR? I love LFR, especially now that it's skippable (ie. don't have to do it to earn more bad luck protection or to complete set bonuses), haven't done a single one in BFA.

I enjoy that the OP starts with this horrifically inaccurate premise and somehow it spawns 8 pages of discussion.

I think the only hate on LFR you'll find is on the hardcore Classic fanatic forums that somehow believe that using Trade to find a group for 45 minutes is the only legitimate WoW experience.

[BaP]

no. lfr sucks because you can't make your own group

Lol, now thats a good reason..........NOT

[Jademist]

of course I realize that many people wouldnt ever see the raids had it not been for LFR, but it has negatively impacted the people that do. it has objectively contributed to the shrinking number of raiders, and the fact that recruitment gets harder and harder each expansion.


the fact that it's automated and requires no thought whatsoever to complete, is as anti MMO as it could be.

I'd prefer if normal was even easier than it is now, but you'd still have to assemble a group for it. because then you'd be actually playing the game, and the game wouldnt be playing you.


but the problem is, that it's a sort of pandora's box.

you can't backtrack on it now. you already turned your entire playerbase into antisocial, single players with LFR and LFD.

For bolded portions of what I quoted... Do you have the numbers to your "objectively contributed to the shrinking number of raiders" to back up your claim? Has recruitment really gotten harder? Have we surveyed enough guilds? My guild's still growing and we've been around for ages now. It could also be that people don't really want to join strict raiding guilds because not everyone lives in WoW. Raiding guilds have stricter schedules and if you can't make it you're out of luck. (Another reason why LFR is good for casual players.)

You can still make normal groups and advertise it on the Looking for Group window... That's how I end up raiding in Heroic at least since my guild doesn't do heroic runs.

And I wouldn't claim "the entire player base". I would also argue that you can't force people to socialize if they really don't want to. I've tried socializing in random groups and some people like to socialize back and others simply just avoid doing so... just like in the real world...

I feel like people get so doom-and-gloom about the game but I don't think that's the experience for everyone. I'm a rather social person and I still socialize with strangers in WoW all the time. In my experience since playing Vanilla, socialization hasn't really changed all that much from my perspective, which may differ from yours or other people's. *shrugs* I just started an RP character on Wyrmrest and I haven't had a hard time finding a social guild and running with people. Experiences may vary but I don't think your views are as objective as you think.

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no. lfr sucks because you can't make your own group

But people who do LFR don't care about making your own group... and for people who want to make their own groups aren't prevented from doing so. Have you used the Looking for Group window at all to find Normal and Heroic runs? The biggest issue for me though is that they're oversaturated with people selling runs, but you can still start your own group so that's hardly a concern.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait, who cares about LFR? I love LFR, especially now that it's skippable (ie. don't have to do it to earn more bad luck protection or to complete set bonuses), haven't done a single one in BFA.

I enjoy that the OP starts with this horrifically inaccurate premise and somehow it spawns 8 pages of discussion.

I think the only hate on LFR you'll find is on the hardcore Classic fanatic forums that somehow believe that using Trade to find a group for 45 minutes is the only legitimate WoW experience.

Right? I think it goes with the elitism that some classic WoW players exhibit. It surprises me that they still keep playing though. They think that their experience of WoW is the only experience that matters but they forget that casual players have been the bulk of WoW's population since I can remember, which was Vanilla. The whole "elitist vs casual" debate has raged on since time immemorial but it's the more vocal elitists who seem to forget that simple fact--casuals are the majority.

[Gadzooks]

I don't think LFR did that, I think group finder just made it easier to play the game. There is no need to be in a shitty guild anymore. Obviously, people are going to take advantage of that.

MOP's guild perks killed guilds more than LFR/LFG. People were guild jumping constantly to get the best perks.

I can't and won't speak for every guild, but raiding guilds tend to be players who log on to raid, and that's all - so getting a group together for older raids in an expansion can be a challenge, or going for achievements if the raid team is working on a new raid, and there are achievs in an old raid. LFR and LFG can also fill in the gaps for anything you're having shit luck on drops for. At least that's what I recall, I can't speak for now.

The biggest issue used to be the player imposed requirement of LFG/LFR, to grind badges. That's gone now, which is amusing, considering how many complained about having to run LFR, for badges.

LFG and LFR are alternative ways and to create an end-game for players who don't have time or interest in harder content. But it doesn't matter, because the raiders who cry about them haven't changed, and won't change. They want ALL of the cake, and they want to be able to drip feed to others, because that's what kind of crummy people they are. This isn't about 'challenge", or ruining the "value" of the raids, it's about being greedy and little Napoleons who want to be the gatekeepers to the content, and sneer at others who try and get in, so players will kiss their butts to be allowed into raids. That's it. There is nothing more to the issue, and if anyone claims differently, they're lying.

It's just a game. It's entertainment. You can choose how seriously you intend to interact, and all of the posturing and distortions and claims and demonizing of "lesser" players is simply from shitty attitudes from shitty people.

[drbatman]

the casuals are the demographic now

now?!

how about since always....

[Gadzooks]

At this point there is really no reason for LFR to exist. It gives the same ilvl as winning a Warfront (which there is no limit to how many you can do while it's up and gear is guaranteed). Blizzard should remove LFR.

Let's just ignore or hand wave away that raids contain big chunks of the storyline, and the last raid of the expansion almost always has the big conclusion to it.

But you keep thinking it's just gear.

[Casperite]

Because it forced the entire game to tailor itself around an activity that completely lacks challenge while dishing out increasingly powerful rewards. and making all content so easily accessible it cheapened the entire experience and made a huge part of the game obsolete (including social interactions).

Not really hard to understand provided one really want to understand.

Your reasoning makes zero sense. The rewards for lfr are not great. Not sure how the entire game is tailored around it since it's not even a good hearing source. Basically you and others are mad because others get to see content so you aren't a special elitist that can say only you and few others have seen it. Why do you base so much of your self view on what others do?

[shaunika123]

For bolded portions of what I quoted... Do you have the numbers to your "objectively contributed to the shrinking number of raiders" to back up your claim? Has recruitment really gotten harder? Have we surveyed enough guilds? My guild's still growing and we've been around for ages now. It could also be that people don't really want to join strict raiding guilds because not everyone lives in WoW. Raiding guilds have stricter schedules and if you can't make it you're out of luck. (Another reason why LFR is good for casual players.)

.

compare the number of mythic raiding guilds each expansion, ever since wrath/early cata it's been shrinking
when was LFR introduced? end of cata

yeah...

it's obviously not the sole contributor, but it's there

your anecdotal evidence wont change that.

for my anecdotal evidence?: it's been harder and harder to find good players each expac.

You can still make normal groups and advertise it on the Looking for Group window... That's how I end up raiding in Heroic at least since my guild doesn't do heroic runs.

the point is that you're no longer incentivized to(which I've specified)

And I wouldn't claim "the entire player base".

well no, obviously not every single player, but compare how social people were vanilla-wotlk and now.

when was the last time you genuinely talked with someone in an LFD/LFR? other than: "can you trade?"

I would also argue that you can't force people to socialize if they really don't want to. I've tried socializing in random groups and some people like to socialize back and others simply just avoid doing so... just like in the real world..

you absolutely should, it comes with the genre.

do you also say "you cant force people to shoot others" in csgo?