Why do people think Burning Teldrassil worked?

[Deleted]

This also isn't on Sylvanas, it's on Blizzard's inconsistent writing. As late as BTS, Sylvanas's scream is described as breaking the bones of everyone in range on top of being able to silence. It randomly doesn't do so in the throne room scene so Jaina can do her thing.

But yeah, Sylvanas' plan is solid enough in the pre-patch, it's later on that her questionable decisions rack up, see the whole Derek plan.

This comes down to suspension of disbelief.
Sylvanas can be killed with a single bullet ala Godfrey. If I were Greymane, I would have carried a shotgun with me and shoot her to the face right at the throne room, no questions asked.
Tyrande had her hearthstone set to SW. Unless every elf in Teldrasil has it set to Darnasus, I don't see why they didn't simply teleport out.

Characters conveniently forget stuff to advance the plot all the time. Sometimes they write convenient excuses, like some spells being too taxing, or some faction being out of natural resources to justify some war. When they don't write the excuse, we usually suspend disbelief. Maybe Sylvanas' has different kinds of screams, and her bone-breaking one was on cooldown, who knows. This only becomes and issue, I feel, when they flatten a character to the point of exhausting our willingness to care for their story.

[valis]

Do you know why her plan didn't work? Because she's basically fighting against a faction that is using cheat codes.

She tried winning using every strategic and tactical at her disposal and she would have succeded wasn't for that damn plot armor.

Having to fight a godlike being as Malfurion? Tire him out making him fight all over a battlefront basically alone only to finish him when he is exhausted -> Plot armor saves Malfurion turning Sylvanas braindead and leaving the final blow to Saurfang that, apparentely, after a life of war and death decided that killing an enemy isn't fun anymore

Trying to decimate an enemy faction to get an advantage? Destroy their main base making the survivors hostiles towards the faction that didn't help them -> First, Tyrande and the other NEs decided to not blame the Alliance. Then they pull out of their butts a ritual to become an Avatar of Vengeance and all of a sudden NEs aren't an almost extinct race anymore, making them able to sustain a brand new Warfront in the main Horde continent.

Wanting to kill the High King and his advisors during the Battle of Lordaeron? (1)Create an Azerite tank (2) Prepare a trap using your tactical advantage in streets of the city (3) Prepare to bomb the entire city while trapping the Alliance leaders in the throne room -> (1) All of a sudden Anduin is able to destroy an entire tank with a sword (2) Right when the trap with Horde troops succeded, Alleria and Mekkatorque are suddenly able to teleport inside the city, with enough troops to win the battle, without any serious explanation (Why they didn't do that before?) (3) Even with a closed room and the city literally full of gas, the blight suddendly is able to full the throne room so slowly that Jaina is able to teleport Anduin & friends back on the magical ship.

On a side we have the Horde that have to come up with real strategy and tactics to win against the Alliance, on the other side we have the faction that keeps winning, without losing any important leader, because reasons

Well then we have cheaters on both sides. Who has the ability to raise every corpse into a loyal undead servant without any upkeep and can do this without limits? It was bad world building when the scourge had this going, but ok scourge should be an unstoppable enemy. Now in the Hands of the Horde? You need a lot of stupid "plot armor" if you have an enemy that can use necromancy without any limits or drawbacks (undead risen by Valks don't perish when Valks are destroyed, Valks have no limit how many undead they can rise, undead are 100% loyal, undead don't need to feed upon the living to not perish... ). And yet the forsaken need help of living Horde members?
You have troops that can move more ore less without time, yet you can distract them? The whole fighting force of the Horde moved from Darkshore to Undercity, yet the alliance was "distracted" and couldn't reach teldrassil in time because they went to silithus?
"Warfare" in "Warcraft" has nothing to do with "tactics" it's just a way to make scenarios for players, to drive the railroad plot to the next station.
Neither side (Horde or Alliance) is presented well right now.

[Verdugo]

It didnt work because she didnt expect the Alliance to be THAT bland.

[Super Dickmann]

This comes down to suspension of disbelief.
Sylvanas can be killed with a single bullet ala Godfrey. If I were Greymane, I would have carried a shotgun with me and shoot her to the face right at the throne room, no questions asked.
Tyrande had her hearthstone set to SW. Unless every elf in Teldrasil has it set to Darnasus, I don't see why they didn't simply teleport out.

Characters conveniently forget stuff to advance the plot all the time. Sometimes they write convenient excuses, like some spells being too taxing, or some faction being out of natural resources to justify some war. When they don't write the excuse, we usually suspend disbelief. Maybe Sylvanas' has different kinds of screams, and her bone-breaking one was on cooldown, who knows. This only becomes and issue, I feel, when they flatten a character to the point of exhausting our willingness to care for their story.

It's about universe consistency. If not in powers and abilities then at least basic characterization. The cast are caricatures at this point, with very few standouts. Sylvanas stands out largely because she's a different kind of caricature and remains entertaining/infuriating depending on your side. Blizzard declaring they don't care about continuity is very telling because there's no reason to invest in a sequential ongoing narrative when there's no continuity and you can't examine it from anything except a Doylist view of what bullshit the writers want to pull next. It hasn't reached that point overall for me yet, but it has as regards the Horde/Alliance narrative in particular. Everyone is stupid, divinely good or comically evil.

[Skytotem]

It didn't work as intended, but it worked better than just turning around and marching back to Orgrimmar with Teldrassil intact would have. It was a better plan than a futile attempt to hold Darnassus hostage against the combined might of Tyrande and Malfurion. Sylvanas' plan wasn't to split the Alliance in order to negotiate peace, it was to split the Alliance in order to conquer them while they were divided.

Holding Teldrassil wouldn't have ever been futile imo

[Tokk]

I've seen people argue that because Genn and Tyrande go to Darkshore without support from Anduin that Sylvs plan worked

But the whole point of splitting the Alliance was to negotiate peace with them separately without having to fight multiple battles and a drawn out war and required Genn being split from the nelfs

How does anyone figure this is "working" for Sylv?

Agreed, I never eally understood why people think or defend her tactics or strategy they tend to be pretty ill thought out. With Teldrassil being the worst.

[Magnagarde]

In all honesty, Sylvanas did what was military the best thing to do. While I find it an act of evil, you can't deny that a scorched earth policy was the only way to root the night elves out.

The night elves should have nothing left in Northern Kalimdor at this point, but they magically errected a harbor in Horde controlled territory and are now even having a warfront over Darkshore, which doesn't make much sense to me storywise. Northern Kalimdor should be Horde territory. I would prefer less undead involvement and more orc, troll, tauren and ogre settlements over there.

Either way, Sylvanas did something really bad and the Horde apparently gets nothing in return for her bad stuff because a night elf base grows right in front of the Horde's eyes. At this point they could've just gone to Orgrimmar instead if it is so easy to establish footholds in enemy territory.

[Super Dickmann]

In all honesty, Sylvanas did what was military the best thing to do. While I find it an act of evil, you can't deny that a scorched earth policy was the only way to root the night elves out.

The night elves should have nothing left in Northern Kalimdor at this point, but they magically errected a harbor in Horde controlled territory and are now even having a warfront over Darkshore, which doesn't make much sense to me storywise. Northern Kalimdor should be Horde territory. I would prefer less undead involvement and more orc, troll, tauren and ogre settlements over there.

Either way, Sylvanas did something really bad and the Horde apparently gets nothing in return for her bad stuff because a night elf base grows right in front of the Horde's eyes. At this point they could've just gone to Orgrimmar instead if it is so easy to establish footholds in enemy territory.

First, a moment of silence now that you're arguing the Horde should have more stuff and I'm arguing against.

I agree with you on the tree, in the sense that keeping it would be prohibitively difficult for the Horde without getting all that much benefit, tying up forces that are better used in fending off the Alliance counter-attack. The hostage plan can't work because it's contingent on having behaving hostages, not a city+territory's worth of people with some degree of military training ready and able to fight.

As for the territories, I principally agreed with you which is why I was so against the now luckily retconned table missions. The Horde should have Ashenvale and Darkshore. I don't mind the pushback though, partly because it's got superpowers involved to even the odds somewhat and partly because it was seeded in A Good War. While a lot of troops were back home, the night elves' best were away, and them returning with a fleet and with two demigods on their side should be enough to clear a landing and begin repairs. Especially since most night elf crap is made out of wood so it can probably be made by druids on short notice.

[Soeroah]

I haven't seen anyone suggesting it worked. Even most pro-Sylvanas people I've seen are more annoyed she ate the idiot ball and did it when it was the worst response to realising her initial plan wasn't working.

[ReD-EyeD]

Horde is at war with Alliance.
Horde burns down one of the most important cities for Alliance and a home of their biggest ally - night evles. Proceed plaguing everything in sight.
Somehow it's bad.

What? You Legion kids don't know shit about what happened before. Sylvanas NEVER cared about the living. Remember this one iconic cinematic with Arthas?
From 2:30 minute



Literally killing own troops. But no, everything is so sudden, fucking Blizzard with their dumb story telling suddenly making Sylvanas crazy. /s

[Florena]

Do you know why her plan didn't work? Because she's basically fighting against a faction that is using cheat codes.

She tried winning using every strategic and tactical at her disposal and she would have succeded wasn't for that damn plot armor.

Having to fight a godlike being as Malfurion? Tire him out making him fight all over a battlefront basically alone only to finish him when he is exhausted -> Plot armor saves Malfurion turning Sylvanas braindead and leaving the final blow to Saurfang that, apparentely, after a life of war and death decided that killing an enemy isn't fun anymore

Trying to decimate an enemy faction to get an advantage? Destroy their main base making the survivors hostiles towards the faction that didn't help them -> First, Tyrande and the other NEs decided to not blame the Alliance. Then they pull out of their butts a ritual to become an Avatar of Vengeance and all of a sudden NEs aren't an almost extinct race anymore, making them able to sustain a brand new Warfront in the main Horde continent.

Wanting to kill the High King and his advisors during the Battle of Lordaeron? (1)Create an Azerite tank (2) Prepare a trap using your tactical advantage in streets of the city (3) Prepare to bomb the entire city while trapping the Alliance leaders in the throne room -> (1) All of a sudden Anduin is able to destroy an entire tank with a sword (2) Right when the trap with Horde troops succeded, Alleria and Mekkatorque are suddenly able to teleport inside the city, with enough troops to win the battle, without any serious explanation (Why they didn't do that before?) (3) Even with a closed room and the city literally full of gas, the blight suddendly is able to full the throne room so slowly that Jaina is able to teleport Anduin & friends back on the magical ship.

On a side we have the Horde that have to come up with real strategy and tactics to win against the Alliance, on the other side we have the faction that keeps winning, without losing any important leader, because reasons

Some of these points are true, but Sylvanas has had plenty of plot armor in the past.

Gets betrayed and killed? She has val'kyr to res her.

Got outwitted by worgen in Silverpine? Use val'kyr to raise dead adn turn the tide.

Same thing happens in Andorhol? Her val'kyr are so OP they turn an alliance vicotry into a defeat so inevitable that even killing several val'kyr on alliance side can't stem the tide.

Gets outmaneuvered in Gilneas? LOL PLAGUE so the gilenas have to flee anyway.

Genn destroys the lantern, and does Eyir punish Sylvanas? No she just leaves, no consequences for Sylvanas making a pact with Helya at all!

And don't even try and tell me Sylvanas didn't have plot armor in the throne room scene in Lordaeron.

It goes both ways.

[ReD-EyeD]

Some of these points are true, but Sylvanas has had plenty of plot armor in the past.

Saying everything is plot armor is like saying "scripted" to a man made story. Just a buzzword at this point.

[Super Dickmann]

Some of these points are true, but Sylvanas has had plenty of plot armor in the past.

Gets betrayed and killed? She has val'kyr to res her.

Got outwitted by worgen in Silverpine? Use val'kyr to raise dead adn turn the tide.

Same thing happens in Andorhol? Her val'kyr are so OP they turn an alliance vicotry into a defeat so inevitable that even killing several val'kyr on alliance side can't stem the tide.

Gets outmaneuvered in Gilneas? LOL PLAGUE so the gilenas have to flee anyway.

Genn destroys the lantern, and does Eyir punish Sylvanas? No she just leaves, no consequences for Sylvanas making a pact with Helya at all!

And don't even try and tell me Sylvanas didn't have plot armor in the throne room scene in Lordaeron.

It goes both ways.

Most of these were elements seeded earlier and result in comprise victories. Sylvanas having a flawless record due to plot armor is a meme.

1. Her val'kyr resurrections were seeded in the story and were all throughout the zone raising other people. It's not an asspull, it's a natural consequence of their actions. That she was shot in the first place was the result of a mistake in raising Godfrey.

2. See above, val'kyr raising people is literally their whole purpose and were there from day 1 of Cata and had their own story setting them up.

3. This I can give you in the sense that lesser val'kyr are never brought up again after Andorhal except in the Broken Shore. The Alliance were not winning prior though, it was a fairly contested region that obviously a mass of frenzied zombies would help with.

4. Again, something she had anyway and it was a pyrrhic victory for Sylvanas as she did not take Gilneas and achieve the aim of taking the docks. Hell, the end of Silverpine has her compromising with the enemy and leave Gilneas as a no man's land.

5. Helya died soon after and Odyn didn't give two shits about this, dude was willing to give Skovald the Aegis when it came down to it.

Lordaeron has been covered already. There's plot armor all around, but Jaina is the main culprit, not Sylvanas who's powers are even nerfed in the throne room scene so as for it to not be a total party kill for the Alliance going in. Anduin negotiating with a beaten opponent instead of capping her in the head is par for the course for his insufferable character, as are his whipped underlings obeying him unquestioningly to their own detriment.

[Skorpionss]

Horde is at war with Alliance.
Horde burns down one of the most important cities for Alliance and a home of their biggest ally - night evles. Proceed plaguing everything in sight.
Somehow it's bad.

What? You Legion kids don't know shit about what happened before. Sylvanas NEVER cared about the living. Remember this one iconic cinematic with Arthas?
From 2:30 minute

Literally killing own troops. But no, everything is so sudden, fucking Blizzard with their dumb story telling suddenly making Sylvanas crazy. /s

Point out to Sylvanas in that cinematic please... It's confirmed that Sylvanas had nothing to do with Wrathgate, in Chronicles volume 3.

[Unholyground]

It didn't work, but it was funny lol.

[Qualia]

Point out to Sylvanas in that cinematic please... It's confirmed that Sylvanas had nothing to do with Wrathgate, in Chronicles volume 3.

It wasn't, though. Chronicle 3 only told us that, like most good lies, there was some truth in Sylvanas' account of the rebellion in the Undercity ("Like most good lies, Sylvanas' account of the rebellion in the Undercity contained some truth. Grand Apothecary truly attempted to overthrow her, and Varimathras truly was trying to claim the Forsaken in the name of the Legion"). It didn't say that Sylvanas had nothing to do with Wrathgate - in fact, it put some doubts (not confirmation, mind you, it was probably intentionally vague) on it by specifically stated that, quoting the book again, "Whether she was aware that Putress and Varimathras were planning to use the concoction remained a mystery". People somehow just tend to group (1) using the Blight at the Wrathgate and (2) Varimathras and Putress' betrayal and attempt to take over Undercity, into one while they are two different but linked events, at best parts of the same major incident.

That's why we got those discussions about whether Afrasiabi's recent statement ("I've heard these discussions on the internet about 'she's going off the rails', but is she? I've been writing Sylvanas personally since 2006, and this is pretty much - the Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken - in character. Those were all under Sylvanas' orders. What we're seeing now is an escalation of the plans Sylvanas has, clearly, and we're in the middle of that" - noted that he only said "the Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken" without "and the battle for Undercity" even though Chronicle 3 separated them into two sections) was a misspoke, a retcon, or was fully intended all along.

[rogueMatthias]

Sylvanas was triggered by the elve and angry.

She burnt said tree to relieve anger from her being so triggered

Then she felt less angry.. . So the plan worked

[The Stormbringer]

Jaina's ability is to freeze the opponent in an iceblock (Arthas & Aethas). Many characters forget abilities conveniently for the plot to progress. It's fine to poke holes in the narrative, but only applying it so lopsided to further your personal view of plot armor is something only reserved for Alliance is not fair.

Sylvanas had already jumped up through the ceiling when the Blight started pouring in, I'm pretty sure. It was only then that Jaina started casting. Would have to re-watch to be 100% sure.

[Aeula]

It didn't work, it wasn't even her plan. She just thought it up on the spot because her last one failed due to her own stupidity.

Right now she seems to be playing everything by ear. She's not very good at thinking up plans in a short amount of time. The only plan of hers that has actually succeeded is breaking the Zandalari out of Stormwind and forging an agreement with them. Though that counts for little but a few extra bodies now since their fleet is gone.

Teldrassil and Lordaeron had been meticulously planned but with no backup. When she foolishly hinged the entire War on whether or not she could trust Saurfang the first phase was lost.

The second phase of the war was lost because she didn't account for the Alliance being able to somehow escape the plague at Lordaeron.

After the Civil War the Horde has been in a position of weakness, we needed to hit hard and fast to shake the Alliance to it's core. Instead we just pissed them off, now swaths of the Horde are turning on Sylvanas and we're headed for a second civil war.

It's probably why she ends up desperate enough to use Xal'atath.

So no, her plans tend not to work out very well. At this rate the Horde will be an Alliance puppet state headed by Saurfang within the year.

And if the Wrathgate really was her idea then she's a grade A moron.

[Zyky]

I've seen people argue that because Genn and Tyrande go to Darkshore without support from Anduin that Sylvs plan worked

But the whole point of splitting the Alliance was to negotiate peace with them separately without having to fight multiple battles and a drawn out war and required Genn being split from the nelfs

How does anyone figure this is "working" for Sylv?

What? No the point of splitting them wasn't to negotiate peace lmao. It was to cripple them so the war would be easier to win.