What would you add to make the alliance more "morally grey"

[Phuongvi]

Sorry but how can we take the story of the Night elf seriously since that horrible *Tyrande my love I need you* ?


You know what, Sylvannas ( or orc traitor guy) should have killed Malfurion

[Hubbl3]

They are driven to protect Azeroth, that's literally their goal - using the void for good is no different than using the light for good, since we now know that light and void aren't as cut and dry as good and evil - who have they sacrificed? As far as I can tell, yes, they seek power through dangerous means, but that power would be used to serve a greater good. Just because something is risky doesn't mean it's a moral evil - just the same as just because someone uses the light, that doesn't make them good by default (Scarlet Crusade, X'era, Lightbound)

The Lich King's plan was to use the Scourge against the Legion. Does it make him good as well? Does the goal always justify the means? Because that' the gist of the Void Elves. The Goal always justifies the means and it doesn't matter what you sacrifice on the way as long as you reach the goal.

[Arrashi]

Technically, killing the goblins at Gallywix's palace (which we have no proof they are civilians, they're hostile for a start, non-combatants tend to not attack you first) is not part of any quest and entirely down to the player. I didn't kill any of them because I did it right at the start of the expac and they were all dead anyways. So that's one point null and void (geddit) -and I wouldn't call reanimating dead animals evil, compared to say, deliberately killing your own troops to raise them as dead.

Thats a hilarious look at it. Im sure this bar and pool staff was hardened veterans.

[schwarzkopf]

Gnomes.


Oh wait....

[Hubbl3]

No, because he killed countless innocent people to do it. Void Elves haven't done that - did you even think it through?

No, they just have killed few innocents and have been corrupting the planet along. I guess until you kill "a lot" you can do whatever you want and still be good.

[Vynestra]

burn down orgrimmar?

That's morally grey, cause you're killing citizens, but its cause you have to kill the evil witch banshee.

[Arrashi]

Civilians tend to run from two armed fighters coming at them, not fight them. And as I said, even if they are civilians - no quest asks that you kill them, so that's not a canon piece of evidence to levy against Void Elves, since it's up to the player if you kill them. And even then, it was just Umbric there, the same for your animal example, not all Void Elves. Arthas was a human, doesn't mean all humans are evil does it?

Thats a cute way of saying "its ok when we are doing it".

[matrix123mko]

Alliance needs what nobody expects, Spanish Inquisition.

With Yrel leading it.

Yesssss! I want to get my waifu back. Also, we need a colosseum in Stormwind.

[Arrashi]

See? You don't have arguments. You're done.

Funny, given the fact that all you keep saying is "its impossible that alliance would do something evil", even when looking straight at examples.

[matrix123mko]

Horde is the unprovoked Attacker/Invader.

Stormheim.

[The Stormbringer]

night elves becoming full eco-nazis

So, DEHTA but even more hardcore, including plants as well?

[Malikath]

Stormheim.

an ambush from cloud-cover is nothing then?

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See? You don't have arguments. You're done.

they never do.

[Radaney]

Have Umbric do something crazy like suck half of Thunder Bluff into a black hole.

Have a Void Elf succumb to the Void and go absolutely schizo on a horde base.

Have Maeiv assassinate someone prominent like Liadrin in cold blood.

Make Tyrande's night form turn her into a genocidal crazy person.

Have the Dark Irons blow somewhere up.

Possibilities are endless really and yet the low functioning writers at Blizzard still can't manage anything.

Void Elves and Dark Irons are literally the sketchiest races in the game alongside Forsaken.

[Deleted]

Let us kill Sylvanas, and you can make us as morally grey as you want.

[matrix123mko]

Have Maeiv assassinate someone prominent like Liadrin in cold blood.

She assasinated multiple Highborne in Darnassus.

Make Tyrande's night form turn her into a genocidal crazy person.

She always was. She attacked orcs for no reason in W3

Have the Dark Irons blow somewhere up.

Their capital city with whole mountain.

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Let us kill Sylvanas, and you can make us as morally grey as you want.

Ok, but let us burn Stormwind and whole Elwynn forest reducing human population by around 90%.

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Funny, given the fact that all you keep saying is "its impossible that alliance would do something evil", even when looking straight at examples.

"All Alliance crimes are non canon now, because I said so and if you disagree you are corpse loving neckbeard." - first rule of playing Alliance.

[Smoe]

Depends on what you're asking. Are you looking for morally gray or "morally gray"?

Morally Gray

1. The Alliance happens upon an overextended Horde group. After a little coercion the Horde group surrenders. The Alliance group is mostly comprised of Nelfs/Worgen/Northrend Veterans. They systematically separate the Forsaken and the others into two groups and slaughter the group with the Forsaken much to the ire of the higher ups. Unfortunately the Alliance is stretched thin and they can't afford to punish the perpetrators.

2. Alliance begins burning Horde dead so they can't be raised.

"Morally Gray"
1. SI 7 or the Night elves poison the Arcandor in response to siding with Sylvanas. This weakens the position of the Nightborne as their source of mana independence is now gone.

2. In their assault on Atal'Dazar the Alliance burns the Horde's Grainaries and whatever medical supplies can't be looted.

[Wondercrab]

I probably wouldn't want them to try and do this since Blizzard are at their best when they're tackling more straightforward narratives. Moral ambiguity requires nuance, and that's something they struggle with. The examples in the OP are the kinds of things they've often done in the past, which are less morally grey and more "good guy suddenly does a bad guy thing".

A genuinely morally grey scenario would be something like a famine hitting Azeroth resulting in huge numbers of people starving to death. Neither faction has enough to go around, so fighting breaks out to try and ensure that at least one group of people will have enough food to survive until the next harvest. When the choices are "do nothing and probably starve / get pillaged" or "raid people who'll probably starve / pillage you so that you can live", the question of morality becomes way more cloudy. WoW is much too bombastic and silly to really tackle conundrums like that most of the time, so a lot of their moral ambiguity unfortunately comes across as shallow, confusing, and unsatisfying as a result. Characters don't need to be morally grey, nor should writers attempt to make them so if they can't do the subject matter justice.

[Rozz]

Clearly you don't know much about their lore then

No I def do, it's why I said what I did

They're very much the edgier mix of a BE and HE, so I don't think they're the more noble of either. I'd say they have the sass and vainglory of a BE, with the resentment of a HE. Edgy doesn't have to mean bad/evil. NEs are literally all about being "one with the night" and worgen are all about being "one of the pack and one with the beast". That's pretty edge to me, but still fits the Alliance imo.

[Verdugo]

This thread perfectly shows why Blizzard hesitates to make Alliance interesting.

[Melusine]

So basically you want every Alliance leader to be Sylvanas. I guess Wow's writers aren't the worst in the world afterall

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Not at all. Void Elves are not morally bad people, prove me wrong if you don't agree

Ok, did I say I wanted this to happen? The question was "What would you add to make the Alliance more "morally gray"?

I would rather the Alliance be a beacon of goodness, and civility. But if someone wanted me to write in how to turn the Alliance into something just as bad as the Horde, it would be done this way.

That said, after everything that happened to the Night Elves, I don't find my commentary on Malfurion to be too far from what we expect should happen, now. Would YOU hold together an alliance of Druids, when you know half of them conspired with someone who attacked you and tried to kill you, and are still aligned with that person? Would you allow those in your order that you personally fought off to protect your home only to have it burned down while your people were in it? Hell, I wouldn't be totally surprised to see Malfurion turn on them all and not even give them the option. And he would be in the right to do so.

I don't like the way Yrel is being portrayed. But it does stand to reason that her Draenei forces are on a mission, and she knows full well, a party of those from beyond the Dark Portal are responsible for certain members coming through the portal. It is not a bad move to turn people who are against your enemies upon them.

See, I am not going to call myself a brilliant writer, just better than the ones Blizzard currently employs. In your determination that I "wanted everyone to be just like Sylvanas", you didn't notice, one name was omitted. Anduin Wrynn. Do you think Anduin Wrynn would be ok with this shit happening under his nose? But the fact of the matter is, Blizzard dropped the ball with him. When his ghost father told him he needed to do what a king must do, and he became Manduin, they dropped the ball at a critical point, and have allowed more of the same. Meanwhile, Malfurion and Tyrande have an understandable Blood Feud against the Horde, and definitely the Forsaken, Genn Greymane is within antipathy's bounds with Sylvanas directly, Jaina hates the Horde and everything it stands for, especially the orcs, and Alleria views the Blood elves as traitors. Turalyon has been eerily silent, but will stand with his brother in arms, Danath Trollbane, who is definitely not friendly with the Horde. Mekkatorque isn't going to turn on the Alliance, and seems more inclined to join in with the ones fighting the Horde than to try to keep unity within the Alliance because a few members went entirely too far. The same is true of the Council of 3 hammers, with the possible exception of Moira Thaurissan. In fact, among members of the Alliance that would not be ok watching the Alliance do these things are.... Khadgar and the Prophet Velen. That's it! And technically, Khadgar is not actually part of the Alliance.

if any of these things began happening, that would force the hand of Anduin to try to set matters right, and create internal problems within the Alliance that so far, only the Horde has had to deal with. Those internal struggles have made for a good strengthening force among Horde players when they have to fight for their Horde. Should the same just not apply to the Alliance because of their "goody two shoe" nature? The Alliance needs to start winning something, or the story is just simply, the "Horde Conquest of Azeroth", and not "World of Warcraft". Sometimes that means getting your hands dirty, or being put under duress to do something you don't want to do for personal issues, but not doing this might mean the end of your people. If you cannot add those sorts of elements into your storycrafting, you suck as a story writer.

So don't tell me, through a flimsy and false assertion, that my writing would be worse than theirs.