Sylvanas didn’t ruin the Horde, Thrall Did...

[Razaron]

Definition of "Tyrant":

"A person who governs oppressively, unjustly, and arbitrarily; despot"

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/di...english/tyrant

In no way shape or form is Sylvanas a "tyrant" - people who use this buzzword either have no idea as to it's actual definition, or use it disingenuously on purpose as a way of expressing their distaste. Either way it's the wrong word to use.

Sounds like Sylvanas to me.

[Super Dickmann]

Honestly I think the inconsistency is more often a result of inconsistent writing than anything else, but since it's what we have, I think you've made a fair point here. Horde honor is a lot like the way many people these days seem to treat religion - relevant when convenient and quite dismissable until it pushes against personal values. I think that's what we see with Saurfang and others (who presumably exist) who are so opposed to Sylvanas' recent actions.

Side note: I'm still sad they made Nazgrim so devoted to Garrosh and made him a loot pinata. I really liked that guy before MoP!

I quite liked Nazgrim because he's probably the one guy who's honor code makes sense. He's bound to the Warchief by the Blood Oath and so help him, he'll stick with it. As for it not being intended, no, probably not, but it's the end result of what they've portrayed.

[sighy]

Sounds like Sylvanas to me.

How about some examples?

[Razaron]

I mean, a lot of the decisions 'Thrall' made was a blizzard decision, not a Thrall one. The storytelling at the start of wow was really bad, also Garrosh took a 180 in terms of his character development so you can't really blame Thrall for that.

I do like how it's always Thrall's fault and nobody can take any personal responsibility for the actions they take.

[Grazrug]

Sounds like Sylvanas to me.

Not even close. Last time I checked, there were now laws made to screw over everyone like Garrosh did. Sylvanas hits the Alliance where it hurts. That is far more than Baine has ever done for us. Actually, even more than Garrosh, since his entire Pandaria and Kalimdor campaigns failed hard. All Cataclysm land gains for the Horde came during her Lordaerin conquest.

[Hyral]

Garrosh is and forever will be the one true Warchief.

[Aucald]

I did. And the answer stays a NO. Kil'jaeden and Gul'dan already startedt to alter the bond between Orcs and Elements at the time druing, you are talking about. The Chronicles reaffirmed this. At the end the final bond was shattered together with the Life source of Draenor itself, when Gul'dan corrupted Cythrus and rose that Fel Vulcano out of the ground.

If you mean altering the bond by exhorting the Orcs to act rashly, then I would agree. Otherwise, I don't. Nothing in "Chronicle Vol. 2" affirms that Kil'jaeden or Gul'dan blocked the elements outside of Gul'dan's later use of the Cipher of Damnation.

[Razaron]

Not even close. Last time I checked, there were now laws made to screw over everyone like Garrosh did. Sylvanas hits the Alliance where it hurts. That is far more than Baine has ever done for us. Actually, even more than Garrosh, since his entire Pandaria and Kalimdor campaigns failed hard. All Cataclysm land gains for the Horde came during her Lordaerin conquest.

How about some examples?

I suppose blighting your own forces is considered a friendly hug.

(a person exercising power or control in a cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary way.)

How about sending the Horde on a unjust war to kill thousands of people, including children. Yup. She's just misunderstood.

[Super Dickmann]

I suppose blighting your own forces is considered a friendly hug.

(a person exercising power or control in a cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary way.)

How about sending the Horde on a unjust war to kill thousands of people, including children. Yup. She's just misunderstood.

The latter happened with the Horde's full cheering approval once Saurfang announced it, and wouldn't have happened without him signing off on it. Up to this point no rank and file dude has complained in any way about the war. As for the Blight, even the guys gassed apologize for being out of position. It's a politically poor move, but tactically correct and would've secured the Horde win if not for Jaina popping up.

[Aucald]

On dreanor there was a trend that the smaller and more intelligent species overtakes the older, bigger and dumber. Going from Colossi down to the Orcs. And i say that Thrall's regime was ultimately a fail, when it's weaknesses were exposed. Namely the mass starvation and apologistic relationship with the Aliance. Also Orcs opposing Garrosh were pretty much a non factor, unless you think that Etrigg, Saurfang and Thrall were the majority.

I don't think "mass starvation" ever occurred in Orgrimmar. The situation was grim, yes; but the Orcs were pretty far from dying out due to resource loss. As for the majority of Orcs opposing Garrosh we have a Dev quote confirming it:

Some orcs have stood by Garrosh's side. You've seen and fought them in Siege of Orgrimmar; however, a majority of the orcs stood with the Horde and against Garrosh's vision of a "pure" Horde, one that is made entirely of, or at least entirely led by, orcs and orcs alone. (Source)

They needed power, because they believed that they were facing an existential threat. The elements abandoned them, as did the spirits of their ancestors. Gul'dan finished the job. Thrall was the first in many years to get a response from the elements.

The elements abandoned them because there was no threat, and the Orcs were brutalizing an innocent people based on rather transparent lies. The spirits of the ancestors turned away because of a combination of the ease with which the Orcs had been misled as well as Kil'jaeden's machinations in preventing their communications otherwise.

[Biomega]

Sounds like Sylvanas to me.

That depends entirely on the perspective you put on it.

What does "oppressive" even mean? In a collective such as the Horde, no member has ever had a 100% equal voice in things. There were some parts that led, and others that followed - from the inception of the Horde continuously to the present day. Its leaders always silenced dissenters to some degree - and so does the Alliance. Does that make them "oppressive"? Sylvanas isn't fencing off ghettos and calling people second-class citizens like Garrosh did. She's making sacrifices, but that's how wars are fought, and won.

And what is "unjust", pray tell? Who is to stand in to define justice for the Horde, and tell them what they can and cannot do - the Alliance, perhaps? If anything, "justice" probably doesn't mean as much as "honor" to many of the Horde - but "honor" is also not something particularly sacred to many members of the Horde. Why do the Forsaken, Blood Elves, and Goblins have to be subject to an Orc/Tauren understanding of "honor" in the first place? And the Trolls have their own particular view of it, too. And what, pray tell, was "just" about the Alliance deciding that the Horde wasn't allowed to have the Azerite - the existence AND properties of which THEY discovered, I might add. And let's not even talk about the past, and fun things like orc concentration camps (such justice, very honor, much righteous) or Admiral Proudmore's little adventure.

"Arbitrary" at least is obviously ridiculous, since Sylvanas is anything but that. She is calculated in her decisions, even the ones that look passionate (like torching Teldrassil). It's what undead are like. A glandular problem, I suspect.

Sylvanas is not a tyrant. She's a leader that doesn't act in full agreement with her subordinates; or, in other words, she's a leader. Yes, she's not exactly acting in accordance with HUMAN codes of ethics, or ORCISH principles of honor - but, then again, she's neither, so why would she.

[Tarba]

Thrall, with the help of Jaina, started a freaking worldwar. That guy was useless.

[Aucald]

I'd say even the Barrens or Azshara would be better picks. Durotar is a lot more inhospitable than Draenor. Presumably Thrall got his idea of what Draenor was like from the Frostwolves and Blackrocks, with Gorgrond and Frostfire both being pretty tough to live. But I think your last point is where you hit on what I was talking about. As I've said before, the orcs of Draenor were never a unified entity until they became the Horde, which proceeded to completely wreck the land in the span of a few years. Separate hunter-gatherer and raiding societies can work on a smaller scale, but Orgrimmar is a proper city, which the climate prevents from being sustained by the land its situated in, relying on imports as Krenna points out. The idea of a city is itself something new to the orcs, as is a sedentary life in the sense Thrall set up, and Durotar was purposefully ill-suited for that life.

I would actually agree with that, at least in hindsight - although the Barrens shares a lot in common with Durotar as concerns arable land, and Azshara itself labors under a supposedly cursed nature and may not be a place to settle in. The Old Horde also didn't wreck Draenor due to being too large to support, as the Old Horde didn't really create a new population center for the Orcs like Orgrimmar was envisioned. Fel magic was what wrecked the ecosystems of Draenor, accumulating more and more over time until the planet slowly and surely became a wasteland.

Thrall did manage to restore the Horde and his reforms were well meant, but I'm skeptical of the notion that what he was aiming at was to reflect what the orcs actually were so much as what he would like them to be. Like I said before, the orcs admired him for putting them back on the camp and pulling them out of their period of internment, but they didn't necessarily agree with his overall views once he actually set up Orgrimmar. You might argue that what he meant to create was better and if it weren't for the penance element I might agree with you, but when he went past restoration and into implementing his own ideas the orcs weren't on board with them. Even Saurfang is an example of this.

I think a bit too much is made of the penance thing, personally. I don't think that Thrall actually set out to punish the Orcs, but rather saw the choice of Durotar as a suitable reflection of the Orcish spirit as scarred, and something in need of cultivation and refinement. The goal was reclaim Durotar as the Orcs reclaimed their own heritage, using Shamanism to bring life to the land once more. Unfortunately Thrall allowed his own reign to be cut short due to his doubts about his leadership in light of the growing problems on Azeroth, so this dream isn't one that could be realized.

Thrall's uninvolvement is a plot point. He purposefully refuses to do it until the last moment. Nazgrel is irrelevant to the conflict. But with Saurfang these are relevant points of his characterization. We know from his threat to Garrosh and his later internal monologue about how Sylvanas acting as Garrosh would by sending them to the meatgrinder would have him challenge her right on the spot that he holds Garrosh in very low regard. And we will now have him as fighting against the Horde losing itself yet again or what have you. But the last time this happened, in his own mind, he didn't do anything until the last minute. His inaction is relevant.

Like Nazgrel in Outland, Saurfang was stationed in distant Northrend before Thrall retrieved him and brought him in tow to Orgrimmar. Saurfang was pretty much out of the picture since WotLK - spending all of Cata and most of MoP at Warsong Hold and watching for any possible resurgence of the Scourge. So no, Saurfang's uninvolvement really isn't a plot point any more than Nazgrel's would've been (hence the comparison). Thrall presumably catches him up on the plight of the Horde as the two make haste to Orgrimmar at the opening of the Siege.

[sighy]

I don't think "mass starvation" ever occurred in Orgrimmar. The situation was grim, yes; but the Orcs were pretty far from dying out due to resource loss. As for the majority of Orcs opposing Garrosh we have a Dev quote confirming it:

Some orcs have stood by Garrosh's side. You've seen and fought them in Siege of Orgrimmar; however, a majority of the orcs stood with the Horde and against Garrosh's vision of a "pure" Horde, one that is made entirely of, or at least entirely led by, orcs and orcs alone. (Source)

The guy it comes from was either a CM or working on Diablo 3, for the most of his tenure with the company. And even back then it was torn to pieces in that very forum. Also the whole quote, from Bashiok is this, about why you can't join the Iron Horde in WoD:

Some orcs have stood by Garrosh's side. You've seen and fought them in Siege of Orgrimmar; however, a majority of the orcs stood with the Horde and against Garrosh's vision of a "pure" Horde, one that is made entirely of, or at least entirely led by, orcs and orcs alone.

Why do humans fight against humans, or those within a nation against their neighbors? There are complexities that go beyond nation, or species, or race. I think it's a valid question: why would someone want to fight against their neighbor, or even their own family, and yet it happens every day.

In this case the Iron Horde threatens all of Azeroth. Anyone who stands with the Horde is the enemy. Wanting to break off from the Horde and side with the Iron Horde is... sure, a valid way to maybe RP your character (also certainly the desire of some of the characters in the game) and you can maybe even find some fun ways to explore that story line for your character, but it's not the story arc the game is intentionally telling for you or your character.

The elements abandoned them because there was no threat, and the Orcs were brutalizing an innocent people based on rather transparent lies. The spirits of the ancestors turned away because of a combination of the ease with which the Orcs had been misled as well as Kil'jaeden's machinations in preventing their communications otherwise.

The orcish culture was built upon trusting their shamans and the spirits of their ancestors. KJ posed as one and when it was found out by Ner'zhul it was too late and Gul'dan took over. Yes there have been Orcs, who doubted it, however they joined due to the external political pressure, even if they didn't wholehaertedly believe the cause.

[The Stormbringer]

I still don't understand why the Elements of Azeroth abandoned him when he killed Garrosh on Draenor. Since when to the Elements of Azeroth care about 'honor'? What honor is there in not fighting with your full strength against a genocidal racist tyrant who has escaped justice multiple times? Why would the Elements of Azeroth leave him after he LITERALLY became bonded with them when Deathwing split him into several pieces and we had to go around and collect them and bind them together again?

What they've done recently with Thrall is just stupid. He should still have his elemental powers as strong as ever, even if he doesn't have the Doomhammer. And he should've put Cairne or Saurfang in charge instead of Garrosh and avoided this whole mess.

But hey, we all make mistakes, I guess. He saw that Garrosh was an aggressive racist in Northrend but I guess it never clicked that it would be bad for the Horde.

[Kantoro]

No, no. You need to taek the stupid a bit further and blame Thrall's mom for even having a child, who will eventually make that decision.

[Deleted]

I suppose blighting your own forces is considered a friendly hug.

(a person exercising power or control in a cruel, unreasonable, or arbitrary way.)

How about sending the Horde on a unjust war to kill thousands of people, including children. Yup. She's just misunderstood.

Funny, and yet absolutely none of that has anything to do with the definition of a "Tyrant" as posted - that's just you using it as a buzzword to express your own personal dislike (just as I pointed out earlier) making it not only a disingenuous but also fundamentally wrong choice of words. Care to try again?

[Grazrug]

I don't think "mass starvation" ever occurred in Orgrimmar. The situation was grim, yes; but the Orcs were pretty far from dying out due to resource loss. As for the majority of Orcs opposing Garrosh we have a Dev quote confirming it:

Some orcs have stood by Garrosh's side. You've seen and fought them in Siege of Orgrimmar; however, a majority of the orcs stood with the Horde and against Garrosh's vision of a "pure" Horde, one that is made entirely of, or at least entirely led by, orcs and orcs alone. (Source)

The elements abandoned them because there was no threat, and the Orcs were brutalizing an innocent people based on rather transparent lies. The spirits of the ancestors turned away because of a combination of the ease with which the Orcs had been misled as well as Kil'jaeden's machinations in preventing their communications otherwise.

Ancestors =/= Elemental spirits.

[Deleted]

It's quite impressive how people are non-tolerant of mistakes of the others even when they are prone to make ones as well.

Yeah, like Garrosh fans calling Sylvanas a tyrant. Pot calling the kettle black perhaps?

[Aucald]

The guy it comes from was either a CM or working on Diablo 3, for the most of his tenure with the company. And even back then it was torn to pieces in that very forum. Also the whole quote, from Bashiok is this, about why you can't join the Iron Horde in WoD:

Bashiok was part of the WoW team during WoD, and started out on the WoW team during Classic. The gist of the post has been corroborated multiple times since then.

The orcish culture was built upon trusting their shamans and the spirits of their ancestors. KJ posed as one and when it was found out by Ner'zhul it was too late and Gul'dan took over. Yes there have been Orcs, who doubted it, however they joined due to the external political pressure, even if they didn't wholehaertedly believe the cause.

Kil'jaeden posed as Rulkan to Ner'zhul, appearing in his dreams and warning him of the "nefariousness" of the Draenei. Presumably he pulled a similar trick on the rest of the elder Shaman of the Orcish clans as well, as they reported their closest ancestor spirits told them much the same as the false Rulkan did to Ner'zhul.

- - - Updated - - -

Ancestors =/= Elemental spirits.

Indeed, and both basically turned their backs on the Orcs for similar reasons.