The Brexit aftermath thread

[Acidbaron]

Awesome. Why weren't we having this conversation ages ago?

The EU has been demonized as the bad guy, the enemy in this story by those in favour of an Brexit. Since it is based on falsehoods and half truths to further strengthen their position nationally at the cost of everything else. By taking this cancel option seriously it means admitting the EU is providing them an option to end this game of self hurt.

Hard to make the EU look bad in that scenario. Beyond that they believed they would have access to several options and when the reality is more and more setting in that they really don't have those options they took for granted, a no deal scenario looked more and more likely, when the EU suddenly stated every member state has increased their customs agencies personnel in January in preparation of a no deal scenario, it slowly started to sink in that the EU wouldn't bend over backwards to keep the UK inside and their bluff poker failed.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Awesome. Why weren't we having this conversation ages ago?

because the UK government fought tooth and nail to prevent this information from becoming public

[Demolitia]

My concern here is that IF the decide to revoke article 50 and stay, the country is still very divided and most politicians seem to still find a convenient scapegoat in the EU. I'm afraid that if they can revoke and stay, they can block any attempt at a reform of the Lisbon treaty and use article 50 as a blackmailing chip.
I'm being extremely cynical here, but the EU has tried its best to make the UK feel like a special snowflake and here we are now.

[Acidbaron]

My concern here is that IF the decide to revoke article 50 and stay, the country is still very divided and most politicians seem to still find a convenient scapegoat in the EU. I'm afraid that if they can revoke and stay, they can block any attempt at a reform of the Lisbon treaty and use article 50 as a blackmailing chip.
I'm being extremely cynical here, but the EU has tried its best to make the UK feel like a special snowflake and here we are now.

I think you are right and i think it is not in the EU best interest to let the UK stay, the question is, is the human suffering inflicted by a hard brexit worth the long term political stability both on the EU front and UK side?

I would say yes but i'm in a luxury position as i personally wouldn't face the negatives all that much, so i can afford to be this idealistic and look at the long term. I do think the social unrest will continue to further grow what side would win, the side of truth or lies. Hard to tell in this age where disinformation tactics are king.

[Pann]

Awesome. Why weren't we having this conversation ages ago?

Because the ruling only came out this morning.

[Demolitia]

I think you are right and i think it is not in the EU best interest to let the UK stay, the question is, is the human suffering inflicted by a hard brexit worth the long term political stability both on the EU front and UK side?

I would say yes but i'm in a luxury position as i personally wouldn't face the negatives all that much, so i can afford to be this idealistic and look at the long term. I do think the social unrest will continue to further grow what side would win, the side of truth or lies. Hard to tell in this age where disinformation tactics are king.

It is in no one's interest that the UK leaves the EU. France might be voicing frustration but nobody's willing to punish them just to make a point.

[Slant]

My concern here is that IF the decide to revoke article 50 and stay, the country is still very divided and most politicians seem to still find a convenient scapegoat in the EU. I'm afraid that if they can revoke and stay, they can block any attempt at a reform of the Lisbon treaty and use article 50 as a blackmailing chip.
I'm being extremely cynical here, but the EU has tried its best to make the UK feel like a special snowflake and here we are now.

If the UK doesn't comply with the core values of the EU (democracy etc.), it's voice in the Council can be suspended, just like Hungary isn't allowed to vote on issues at the moment. It's not like the EU cannot defend itself against adverse behaviour.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Because the ruling only came out this morning.

if the Government had not fought so hard to prevent the issue ever reaching the ECJ, it would have been available much sooner

[Demolitia]

The EU has been demonized as the bad guy, the enemy in this story by those in favour of an Brexit. Since it is based on falsehoods and half truths to further strengthen their position nationally at the cost of everything else. By taking this cancel option seriously it means admitting the EU is providing them an option to end this game of self hurt.

Hard to make the EU look bad in that scenario. Beyond that they believed they would have access to several options and when the reality is more and more setting in that they really don't have those options they took for granted, a no deal scenario looked more and more likely, when the EU suddenly stated every member state has increased their customs agencies personnel in January in preparation of a no deal scenario, it slowly started to sink in that the EU wouldn't bend over backwards to keep the UK inside and their bluff poker failed.

I mean, the commission made a whole page debunking myths about the EU. The vast majority of them come from British tabloids. A big shift in mentalities and discourse is needed here.
The EU does need changes, and it is going to be an uncomfortable discussion because every Member State wants something different. If this is going to happen, we need UK politics to grow up quite a bit.

[Huehuecoyotl]

Because the ruling only came out this morning.

And why couldn't the ruling have happened earlier? Was it something to do with the Tory government doing everything in their power (and the power of tax-payer funds) to block this decision being made?

[Dizzeeyooo]

And why couldn't the ruling have happened earlier? Was it something to do with the Tory government doing everything in their power (and the power of tax-payer funds) to block this decision being made?

hopefully he notices you, since he seems to be completely ignoring me

[Demolitia]

If the UK doesn't comply with the core values of the EU (democracy etc.), it's voice in the Council can be suspended, just like Hungary isn't allowed to vote on issues at the moment. It's not like the EU cannot defend itself against adverse behaviour.

I don't see how this would remotely qualify as not complying with core values and call for a suspension of a voice in the council. Right now Poland and Hungary have each other's back to prevent it, and that's enough, so I don't see this realistically happening for the UK.

[Demolitia]

And why couldn't the ruling have happened earlier? Was it something to do with the Tory government doing everything in their power (and the power of tax-payer funds) to block this decision being made?

The opinion from the Court was requested a month (?) ago. Their opinion came out extremely fast by legal standards

[Acidbaron]

I mean, the commission made a whole page debunking myths about the EU. The vast majority of them come from British tabloids. A big shift in mentalities and discourse is needed here.
The EU does need changes, and it is going to be an uncomfortable discussion because every Member State wants something different. If this is going to happen, we need UK politics to grow up quite a bit.

The EU needs a lot more transparency and to become a whole lot more faster with bringing information to the public. Information coming out how things really work, information coming out now when things are decided but when they are being debated. The good part is ever since the last two years efforts have been made to ramp this up increasingly. Opponents of course just dismiss this as propaganda while gladly citing falsehoods and foreign news agencies as RT as reliable.

I believe in part that a huge factor is that most of Europe leans closers to a French structure of politics compared to the British one. Where as in the rest of Europe we noticed the classic parties of old being more and more over taken by new political movements and ideologies, where as in the UK it remains the classic two in charge with other smaller ones propping either one of them to become relevant.

[Demolitia]

if the Government had not fought so hard to prevent the issue ever reaching the ECJ, it would have been available much sooner

Because the will of the people was to leave the EU, which ignored all warnings it wasn't a super safe idea?
A government asking how best to cancel the policy it swore to impement would not be a very good signal?
Honestly I don't know. UK politics don't appear to be a beacon of wisdom lately.

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The EU needs a lot more transparency and to become a whole lot more faster with bringing information to the public. Information coming out how things really work, information coming out now when things are decided but when they are being debated. The good part is ever since the last two years efforts have been made to ramp this up increasingly. Opponents of course just dismiss this as propaganda while gladly citing falsehoods and foreign news agencies as RT as reliable.

I believe in part that a huge factor is that most of Europe leans closers to a French structure of politics compared to the British one. Where as in the rest of Europe we noticed the classic parties of old being more and more over taken by new political movements and ideologies, where as in the UK it remains the classic two in charge with other smaller ones propping either one of them to become relevant.

It does have a lot of it. It has daily press briefings for the EC, EP and Council, all the agendas and most minutes are publicly available. Most meetings are streamed. Barnier's office is publishing the latest drafts as soon as they are done. People just don't look at it, and national news outlet don't report it.
Do we need a EU tv channel? Nobody would watch regulatory parliamentary work. It's boring as hell.

edit:
Go browse through this:
Council: this one is a bit slow as they don't meet all the time : https://www.consilium.europa.eu/
Parliament: you can watch plenary and committee sessions here, together with their agendas and minutes. You can also check what your MEPs have been doing (and find out Nigel Farrage has done fuck all over the years, besides collecting a paycheck for trolling occasionally, for instance). http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en
Commission: pick your language, pick your topic and see what's in the pipeline: http://ec.europa.eu/

[Pann]

And why couldn't the ruling have happened earlier? Was it something to do with the Tory government doing everything in their power (and the power of tax-payer funds) to block this decision being made?

I have given a factual answer to the poster's question. But what would you like me to say? What kind of an answer did you have in mind to your leading question?

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The opinion from the Court was requested a month (?) ago. Their opinion came out extremely fast by legal standards

Indeed. As was the government's Supreme Court appeal.

Just to add it is entirely possible due to schedules and the complexities of the question before the ECJ that even without the UK government appeal that this morning would have been the earliest date that court could have ruled.

[Dizzeeyooo]

The opinion from the Court was requested a month (?) ago

the point was that the UK government spent a vast amount of time, effort and money trying to prevent that request from happening in the first place

A government asking how best to cancel the policy it swore to impement would not be a very good signal

the people who made the request were nothing to do with the UK government

[Pann]

Because the will of the people was to leave the EU, which ignored all warnings it wasn't a super safe idea?
A government asking how best to cancel the policy it swore to impement would not be a very good signal?
Honestly I don't know. UK politics don't appear to be a beacon of wisdom lately.

Essentially the government's hands are tied by the referendum vote and as a result there is/was no way they could be seen to support this case going ahead. I suspect that the Supreme Court challenge was little more than going through the motions and that they knew it was bound to fail. I, also, would not be surprised if many members of the government are secretly very happy at this morning's judgement.

[Demolitia]

the point was that the UK government spent a vast amount of time, effort and money trying to prevent that request from happening

There are a great many questions you should as the UK government before you get to that.
Why wasn't a thorough legal, regulatory and economic impact assessment not ordered on day one and published as soon as it was available, for starters.

[Dizzeeyooo]

There are a great many questions you should as the UK government before you get to that

asking the current UK government anything is pointless if the answer is not something they agree with, today makes that perfectly clear