vaccines

[Coolthulhu]

I vaccinate myself against the flu every year to see if autism adds of multiplies. Jokes aside, I also vaccinated myself against stuff that's optional here because I travel a lot, and I think anti-vaxxers should have their voting rights revoked and child custody suppressed.

[XangXu]

I hope people realize that the anti-vaccer plague is a direct result of letting non-fact fake news sites like Info Wars run amock without regulation.

[LMuhlen]

I think that if people weren't all so extremists and divisive, and could accept the possibility of there being things unknown and improvements to be done, and could present these results in a more honest way, we wouldn't have so many people seeing ghosts in every corner.

Accepting that we don't know all the consequences of vaccination, on all the different variations of people that exist, even though it is known with great certainty that those consequences would still be statistically very small when compared to the huge benefits that vaccines provide, and presenting in official media with accessible language the information of how much room there is of uncertainty compared to the huge room of what is well known, could, IMO, reduce idiocy by misinformation.

Or maybe I'm just an idealist, and presenting any sort of scientifically measured uncertainty would cause mass hysteria...

In any case, I think that assuming all is perfect is a great dampener for improvement, and if there is a risk that in some very specific cases vaccination would help in any way to trigger a predisposition towards autism or any other dysfunction, then it would be a good thing to understand this effect to try and minimize it further. I believe research is being done and overall tending towards inconclusive, possibly in great parts due to the syndrome itself still not being completely understood, and possibly due it being severely multifactorial.

[Techno-Druid]

I think that if people weren't all so extremists and divisive, and could accept the possibility of there being things unknown and improvements to be done, and could present these results in a more honest way, we wouldn't have so many people seeing ghosts in every corner.

Accepting that we don't know all the consequences of vaccination, on all the different variations of people that exist, even though it is known with great certainty that those consequences would still be statistically very small when compared to the huge benefits that vaccines provide, and presenting in official media with accessible language the information of how much room there is of uncertainty compared to the huge room of what is well known, could, IMO, reduce idiocy by misinformation.

Or maybe I'm just an idealist, and presenting any sort of scientifically measured uncertainty would cause mass hysteria...

In any case, I think that assuming all is perfect is a great dampener for improvement, and if there is a risk that in some very specific cases vaccination would help in any way to trigger a predisposition towards autism or any other dysfunction, then it would be a good thing to understand this effect to try and minimize it further. I believe research is being done and overall tending towards inconclusive, possibly in great parts due to the syndrome itself still not being completely understood, and possibly due it being severely multifactorial.

Nobody is against understanding the side effects that vaccines have side effects in certain people that should be explored, but we're against the idea that it causes autism because that's not how autism works.

[unbound]

so some new information came out recently.

https://sharylattkisson.com/2019/01/...vt-covered-up/

I myself am pro vaccine and have had my kids vaccinated with no problems. what are your thoughts on this, I mean its no surprise that the government does this type of stuff, but is this doctor to be taken seriously?

http://fullmeasure.news/news/cover-s...ination-debate

Well, if you actually read what he said, he is pretty clear that he is not claiming that vaccines cause autism in general. He clearly states that he *thinks* there is a very narrow set of conditions where a vaccine could cause autism. Numbers 7 and 19 are pretty explicit on this.

Keep in mind that he is stating what he thinks he found, and had published his concerns back in 2006 (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs...38060210021401). I'm not seeing any studies that really back this up which means:

a) If it was caused a vaccine, it is clearly an exceptional rare set of conditions
b) While there is an interesting correlation, there is certainly not enough to determine causation

Overall, I'll have to take this with a grain of salt. Even if this doctor is 100% right, we are still talking about an extremely small chance of developing autism from a vaccine vs an increasingly large number of people dying from vaccine preventable deaths as various hotspots are popping up where anti-vaxxers have caused us to go below herd immunity thresholds.

[Underverse]

First off: anyone with a functioning brain should be pro-vaccines.

Secondly, something is definitely up with autism, diagnoses have increased by 150% since 2000. That is way higher than simply increased awareness and diagnosis.

I think the explanation is maternal stress during pregnancy. Overall stress levels are on the rise in the US due to longer working hours and stagnant wages, and there are several research studies that stress during pregnancy is associated with ADHD, anxiety disorders and autism-like behaviors in infants and children.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28681538
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3153828/

Probably more I could link but people can do the research themselves, we talked about this stuff during my MA program.

Also in part due to a child's environment. When parents hand their (very young) kids tablets and iphones to keep them quiet, they don't learn social behaviors. It's not exactly a surprise to see the outcome.

[Katchii]

I mean.. while none of us clearly know the answer, putting it up in large black letters doesn't make your statement any more true. This is bad argumentation.

THE EARTH DOESN'T ROTATE AROUND THE SUN FOR F*CK SAKE !

Yeah.. no.

But we do clearly know the answer, not a single one of the studies trying to show a link can actually establish a link. The original study published by Andrew Wakefiled, that started this whole debacle, had falsified data and was so bogus he lost his medical license over it. I repeat, the doctor who originally started the anti-vaxx movement lost his medical license because of it and can no longer practice medicine.

While I obviously can't claim with 100% certainty, IMO the only reason studies continue to be done is because so many fucking morons STILL believe it and need to be proven wrong, not because anyone truly believes a link actually exists.

[Noomz]

so some new information came out recently.

https://sharylattkisson.com/2019/01/...vt-covered-up/

I myself am pro vaccine and have had my kids vaccinated with no problems. what are your thoughts on this, I mean its no surprise that the government does this type of stuff, but is this doctor to be taken seriously?

http://fullmeasure.news/news/cover-s...ination-debate

How the fuck did you manage to dig this garbage up? The answer is no.

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But we do clearly know the answer, not a single one of the studies trying to show a link can actually establish a link. The original study published by Andrew Wakefiled, that started this whole debacle, had falsified data and was so bogus he lost his medical license over it. I repeat, the doctor who originally started the anti-vaxx movement lost his medical license because of it and can no longer practice medicine.

While I obviously can't claim with 100% certainty, IMO the only reason studies continue to be done is because so many fucking morons STILL believe it and need to be proven wrong, not because anyone truly believes a link actually exists.

Ah, silly you! Don’t you know that he was silenced by The Man for speaking The Truth?

See, that’s how these fucking idiots think.

[McFuu]

I'd rather have 2 out of 50 children be autistic than 1 out of 50 children vs 40% of the population dying to small pox and polio.

But that's assuming there is a link between vaccines and autism, which there isn't... never had been a link, unless you want to play 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon.

[Unholyground]

Autism isn't that bad anyways, I live with a severely autistic sister in-law and yes it can be bad but you get free government money!

[aviger]

In a fun addition to this discussion when my son was getting ready for all his vaccines i read an article by a group of doctors that
found a link to autism not directly to the vaccines but to kids getting to much pain meds for fever (i think baby advil or something not sure which).
So parents get vaccines which usually cause a bit of a fever, no big deal.
They then gives their kids pain meds doctors usually say is fine but really shouldn't be given for a tiny fever and something in the brain reacts with it.
Now parents go "vaccines caused his autism" and only studies directly between vaccines -> autism get done completely ignoring all the other crap people give their kids.

[vindicatorx]

Maybe, just maybe, the increased diagnosis for autism is because we have gotten better at diagnosis in the first place?


Heck just a hundred uears ago, Epilepsy was considered by many to be caused by possession, and "hysteria" among women garnered you a place in the Asylum.

Not everything has to have a cause beyodn basic better understanding, diagnosis, and treatment.

Personally I think autism is the current blanket diagnosis for all kids with any variant of social, communicative or behavioral issues. Please note; I am not saying Autism is bullshit or whatever. I don't need people to say how real and severe autism is, thank you. A diagnosed kid is a medicated kid and that means more money into the entire medical system. It's kinda like how every kid on Earth all of a sudden had ADD or ADHD in the late 90's.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Sharyl Attkisson is a nut case lunatic hack who got her ass bumped from CBS of all places because she couldn't refrain from merging her own individual bias with her version of journalism which consist of all the research of a night time talk show hose, which is why she is pushed on Sinclair one of the most rabid right wing media outlets in existence.

I would sooner give more credit to the copy posta shit posted on MMO-C OT than I would Sharyl Attkisson. As for vaccines and it's link to autism, thus far there is no data that has me convinced there is or was a link, however if there ever was, it wouldn't come from people like Bill Maher or Sharyl Attkisson. As to the information itself, it's a nice tactic used to pretend that Sharyl Attkisson is impartial, but she isn't, she is for sure a paid biased reporter. She has an agenda and she isn't smart enough to facilitate or inform anyone intelligent on the matter.

[therealstegblob]

Secondly, something is definitely up with autism, diagnoses have increased by 150% since 2000. That is way higher than simply increased awareness and diagnosis.

Yes. There is something up with autism in America, and it's not "oh we're better at finding it lulz".

Personally, and I know this is a bit of a tricky and not popular stance to take, I think there could be a link between vaccines and autism; or more specifically, a link between how certain people (primarily males, who are more likely to be affected by a certain form of gene mutation than girls- hence more autism in boys than girls) are able to detoxify their bodies of metal.

There's the whole story of Andrew Wakefield, and while it's a sordid tale of a doctor (Wakefield) who had targeted financial reasons for campaigning for what he did, I honestly believe the man fully believes that the MMR Vaccine triple-injection has a link to gut health and autism. He published a study concerning it in the medical journal Lancet, but they eventually pulled it once the whole Wakefield controversy (and the unethical way he gathered blood samples for testing) hit a high point, but notably they did not pull it because they believed the core science to be possibly wrong, just that Wakefield seemed to have biased financial reasonings for pursuing his research.

Anyways, long story short, there's a working theory that many people with autism symptoms are carriers of a gene mutation that is known to cause complications in detoxifying metals from the body. There's also a clear link between autism and gut health (as observed by Wakefield when he was still licensed to practice medicine). I've firsthand witnessed a link between gut health and autism symptoms in young children, though I can not say this would apply to everyone/anyone with autism (since the condition is so heavily diverse in who has it, what the symptoms are, how severe they are, what might have caused it, if it was a condition present upon birth, etc. Too many people believe autism is just one thing with only one cause/only one set of symptoms/whatever. It's a highly diverse spectrum, hence the rebranding of ASD).

I think the explanation is maternal stress during pregnancy. Overall stress levels are on the rise in the US due to longer working hours and stagnant wages, and there are several research studies that stress during pregnancy is associated with ADHD, anxiety disorders and autism-like behaviors in infants and children.

This is an okay theory, but it's a little silly because there are plenty of places in the world where mothers experience far more stress than in the USA and yet, presto cobloppo, they don't have autism rates anywhere near as high as we do. It's something that has to be specific to the USA. Either that or we're literally talking about autism being the most mis/overdiagnosed condition on the fucking planet... which could also be true in the USA's "everything makes you sick you need these medicines we swear" culture. I believe misdiagnosis accounts for a large portion of things like autism/ADHD/ADD, and especially moreso with autism where any small behavior or character tick can be suggested to be autism.

The thing that gets me about Wakefield and causes me to not immediately write him off as an anti-vaxx quack is that he's not really anti-vaxx. He's anti-MMR. He thinks we should vaccinate for Measles, Mumps and Rubella- just not all in one triple dose. And when you look at why we do it in a triple dose, the reason is it makes vaccine manufacturers more money and basically no other sufficiently backed up reason otherwise. So you have a guy who says "maybe we shouldn't be doing this triple dose thing and just do the vaccines one at a time I think I have information here that shows it could be dangerous to certain at-risk members of society" and vaccine producers who say "no way bub we like our $$$", and then critics of Wakefield tell you to disregard him just because he was making money off of his research. Hm hm, me not do that me think.

There's also the fact that the USA has used taxpayer money (because shady laws exist that prevent vaccine manufacturers from being financially liable for damages their products cause, which is kind of a red flag no matter how you want to look at it) to award damage settlements to people in cases where they openly admit autism behaviors were a result of vaccinations.

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Except that's what the very article you linked says...

Yeah dude, we just have a drastically rising amount of autism diagnosis that are on track to include around 80% of the male population within the next few decades (should the rise continue, which it's been doing year after year so far) because "buh we gots da better at looking fer it". Rock solid, bro. Great logic. The answer isn't that we're having more people regress or be born into ASD, it's just that we were all autistic the whole time! I guess it explains why cavemen made Stone Henge. Those autists love stacking stuff, you know.

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Autism is something you're born with, some exceptional people may actually be able to reprogram their brain at a young age and become neurotypical, but other than that, you're born with it and will die with it. There's no external factors outside of the womb for autistic people.

This is misinformation. Some people can be considered to have been born with autism, but it is not something most are "born with", you regress into it at (usually) an early age. The medical term is literally 'regress into autism', where motorskills/eye contact/behavior will regress literally overnight. It's not hyperbolized scare mongering from quack sources on the internet, it's medically accurate.

The debate continues as to whether or not this regression is something you're born with, but I believe it usually is not and that outside factors play a large part in most ASD individuals. But claiming "Nope, you're born with ASD" is not true and it's become the battle cry of autistic people on the internet, because I guess they don't feel comfortable admitting their condition might've been caused by something.

As for your ridiculous claim that "some exceptional people can reprogram their brain and become neurotypical", this is just fucking offensive. Some people with high functioning ASD can, through personal treatment or therapy or medication break away from some of their symptoms. Low functioning ASD individuals can benefit greatly through early intervention educational therapy and diet changes (as a strong and visible link exists between gut health and autism severity). But no one can "reprogram their brain to not be autistic", what a stupid and offensive thing to say.

ASD isn't one thing. Some people could be born with it, others are obviously not born with it and regress into it later in life. Its symptoms are not one thing. Its treatments are not the same across the board for everyone. If you treat autism like it's only one thing and start gatekeeping people, you're being an asshole. Make like a pastry and donut do it.

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But we do clearly know the answer, not a single one of the studies trying to show a link can actually establish a link. The original study published by Andrew Wakefiled, that started this whole debacle, had falsified data and was so bogus he lost his medical license over it. I repeat, the doctor who originally started the anti-vaxx movement lost his medical license because of it and can no longer practice medicine.

Wakefield's study was pulled for a couple of reasons, but it wasn't (from the best I can tell) because his MMR claims were entirely exposed as untrue, just that he clearly had vested interest in making money off of his platform and he began either outright falsifying information or gave his information shoddy research before making it.

https://respectfulinsolence.com/2011...the-money-all/

This is a good anti-Wakefield blog post that sums up the entire ballad pretty well. It exposes Wakefield's practices and suggests that, due to his position, he was making money off of being anti-MMR. However, even the hyper-anti-Wakefield blog author has to admit that he could see Wakefield being genuinely curious about MMR's safety. If Wakefield had been a man more true to his work and not to money, he might not have been disgraced.

Wakefield isn't anti-vaxx (at least, again, from what I know. I dunno what the guy says these days, as he's still active in anti-vaxx movements). He is/was only anti-MMR, and again, the only reason we do the MMR shot is because of financial reasons for vaccine manufacturers. So Wakefield might be a greedy asshole, but he was fighting against greedy assholes that were about 100 times bigger than he was. Which is the takeaway I get from it.

[Checkt]

This is the type of thing that really was better off staying hidden. The reality of life is, most people are not intelligent enough (and yes, that's gonna mean some of you reading this comment) to dissect and handle information in a reasonable manner.

Vaccine injury being possible is not unheard of nor is it denied by people who defend vaccines, it's just exceptionally rare and often isn't because of the vaccine itself, but rather some other problems the person had being activated or enhanced by the ingredients and not necessarily caused by them. See every court case relating to vaccines ever. The autism rate for the US population is just above 1.5% (being generous, using the highest presented statistic) while the vaccinated rate is 94%....assuming that vaccines cause litrally 100% of autism, which I think no one is trying to claim, and that puts vaccines on the safer side of literally all things humans do.

This is a non-issue, exasperated by people who think their ability to google things should matter.

[Draco-Onis]

Yes. There is something up with autism in America, and it's not "oh we're better at finding it lulz".

Personally, and I know this is a bit of a tricky and not popular stance to take, I think there could be a link between vaccines and autism; or more specifically, a link between how certain people (primarily males, who are more likely to be affected by a certain form of gene mutation than girls- hence more autism in boys than girls) are able to detoxify their bodies of metal.

Or the simple answer there are more cases of autism because we've widely broadened the definition of it. I know several kids who have been diagnosed but there is nothing wrong with them back in the day they used to call it being a kid. A lot of parents want their kids to be zombies and the drugs do that then they wonder how they get messed up later on in life.

[bledgor]

Vaccines 100% have increased autism rates, because YOUR CHILD ISN'T FUCKING DEAD.

Vaccinate your child, and if you have the belief you shouldn't do the world a favor and don't reproduce, we have enough people in the world without subjugating a child to mentally retarded parents.

[Gaexion Ramza Beoulve]

Autism occurs during gestation.

Vaccines are given after birth.

[therealstegblob]

Or the simple answer there are more cases of autism because we've widely broadened the definition of it. I know several kids who have been diagnosed but there is nothing wrong with them back in the day they used to call it being a kid. A lot of parents want their kids to be zombies and the drugs do that then they wonder how they get messed up later on in life.

I don't think so. Again, I generally reject any form of argument that says "we just got better at diagnosing it" or "we broadened what it means". That does not account for how many people are being diagnosed with ASD. Not to mention that low functioning ASD is unmistakable; we never "just didn't know what to look for" in the past.

The answer is obvious: Either something in the USA is causing a real increase in ASD, or it's severly and grossly misdiagnosed by doctors who get fat kickbacks from drug companies when they frighten parents into thinking Little Timmy might have "some mild high functioning autism" because he likes to sing and spin around every day, but "it's okay, because I know a great treatment program that is covered by your insurance to help try to alleviate his ASD symptoms".

It is most certainly not because "we got better at finding it" or "we decided some other things constitute ASD". Those are incorrect at best at downright propaganda at worst.

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Autism occurs during gestation.

This is not a true statement.

[Draco-Onis]

I don't think so. Again, I generally reject any form of argument that says "we just got better at diagnosing it" or "we broadened what it means". That does not account for how many people are being diagnosed with ASD. Not to mention that low functioning ASD is unmistakable; we never "just didn't know what to look for" in the past.

The answer is obvious: Either something in the USA is causing a real increase in ASD, or it's severly and grossly misdiagnosed by doctors who get fat kickbacks from drug companies when they frighten parents into thinking Little Timmy might have "some mild high functioning autism" because he likes to sing and spin around every day.

It is most certainly not because "we got better at finding it" or "we decided some other things constitute ASD". Those are incorrect at best at downright propaganda at worst.

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This is not a true statement.

But we have broadened the definition....

Majority Of Autism Increase Due To Diagnostic Changes, Finds New Study

we even diagnose grief now as a disorder.