Redesigning classes: a BIG call.

[Pancreatin]

They just need to bring mop class design and the game will become 10 times better then the current abomination that we have.

[shoegazing]

I just want my class to go back to what it was before this Legion garbage and all the pruning and so-called ClassFantasyTM.

Legion and BFA classes are utter trash and Blizzard should be ashamed for having ruined the awesome and refined design of classes and replacing them with this trash.

[Vampyr78]

This just simply can't be done. It would require to rebuild the whole game all over to accomodate those changes.

[hulkgor]

No.

Honestly, apart from cutting edge balance issues in regards to Mythic+ and Mythic Raiding, i have no issues with either class design or class balance. Every spec is viable, some are more engaging than others, but we're in a very good place, especially considering we're talking about 36 specs in the game.

Class identity took a dent in previous expansions, with a lot of unnecessary pruning, but i think they've been taking measures to regain that.

So i'm fine with them. I just wish they'd test more whacky and gameplay altering traits for each class instead of bland % increases.

[shoegazing]

Class identity took a dent in previous expansions, with a lot of unnecessary pruning, but i think they've been taking measures to regain that.

Utter nonsense. The Rogue I have mained since 2004 was ruined in Legion and none of the changes they have made since then have had a significantly positive impact relative to the magnitude of the awesome gameplay that was lost.

[Soon-TM]

For the record, this is my opinion on classes. I honestly believe it is as much the fault of the community as it is Blizzards. However, thats like blaming a 7yo for being fat, and not the Parents - Blizzard had the option to ignore the community, and continue to do what they felt was best in the long run, but instead buckled and gave the players 'what they wanted' - you think you do, but you dont.

People wanted balance - they wanted every single spec to be viable in every single game play situation - they wanted every single talent to be meaningful and important. Here are a few things that i personally believe had the biggest impact on classes.

There was a simple natural balance in the trinity:

- Dps - deal amazing damage, but have no healing, and take massive damage.
- Healer - heal amazingly, but have no damage, and take massive damage
- Tank - Take next to no damage, but cannot heal, and cannot deal fuck all damage.

This is when wow was at its best - its most pure - healers healed, tanks tanked, and dps dpsd. There was one issue - Hybrids. Blizzard felt it was not ok for a class to be able to deal 10/10 damage like a dps, and still do 3/10 healing and/or 3/10 tanking. So they made them a 7/10 dps, and 3/10 healing/tanking. But as the community grew, and newer players joined - they couldnt accept that their OOMkin druid was only dealing 7/10 dmg while their rogue mate was doing 10/10 damage - they also very seldom took advantage of their 3/10 healing, making it even harder to understand for them.

Add into the mix the new Arena pvp mode, and shit got out of hand REALLY quickly. Arena by itself didnt ruin classes, and neither did the Hybrids - combine them though, and you had a perfect storm! Well, almost.........there was one ingredient missing...................MOBAS!

Feeling pressure from PvP players sick of hybrids humping and hotting, combined with pve players demanding every spec be viable in the ever growing and competitive raid scene, now throw in the massively popular Moba scene - limited abilities and "simple" classes/spec, and eventually, it was all too much for Blizzard

And so the decline started. They tried to please everyone.

Just think about it like Motorsports - They dont just let every manufacturer do whatever they wanted to their cars whenever they wanted - There has to be VERY strict limitations on what people can or cant do - which can only be achieved by limiting parts / options. This is what Blizzard decided to do - streamline EVERYTHING. During that process, we lost EVERYTHING that made our classes unique - and all because Blizzard tried to give us what we wanted.

But hey, thats just like, my opinion./ MAN

In other words, the game was at its best when it was just a RPG (not without its flaws ofc) instead of trying to cater to the competitive MUH ESPURTZ bullcrap that Blizzard has been pushing at least since WotLK. They have (had?) the SC, HS, OW and HotS franchises for the "competitive" crowd, why did they had to butcher WoW (and to a lesser extent Diablo) too?

[Reiry]

Why post a bunch of bizarre ideas when simply reverting to MoP would fix most of the class design issues.

[khazmodan]

Needless to say class design has started falling apart since the start of WoD - blizzard began removing fun, iconic, thematic, utility and situational spells while giving very little in return (and then even removing what little they gave such as artifacts).

Some ability pruning in some cases was needed but instead of using a delicate and precise scalpel Blizzard used a super-powered sledgehammer and demolished most classes, removing everything fun and thematic and going so far to the point of making some classes unplayable in BFA.

Personally as far as WoW goes i really enjoyed MoPandaria class design.
Classes were full to the brim with abilities, i had a TON of fun playing most classes and felt like i had 8 favorite classes out of 11 in MoP.
Not saying it was perfect (nothing ever is) but the classes felt fun and vibrant and had decent depth to them.

/Agree, the focus needs to get back to fun as the first priority and balance second (but still important to strive for). The developers for WoW seem to be creatively bankrupt when it comes to coming up with new class abilities that people look forward too. The only thing that can save Blizzard now is its seperation from Activision, and being run by Morhaime and the other founders again...and of course firing Ion Hazznoclue and J Allen Bricksforbrains.

[Aleksej89]

Its one thing if blizz doesnt know how to do modern class design or get new ideas, but then they should have never started massively pruning the MOP classes with a god damn sledgehammer.

[Tiwack]

Looks like you want some semblance of a rpg again which I can only applaud, keep it up and best of luck.

[vashe9]

Which spec do you play ? Because most of the DPS classes are within 5%~ max of the top dps in average (YES it depends on fights, obviously)
It was A LOT worse in most of prior expansions (BC+, do you remember Hunters who could OS any clothie or DK in WOLTK ????) and totally broken in Vanilla

If blizzard goes away that and "unbalances" things like you want to do, this forum and internet will burn in RAGE. That's how people are and most of them want to be as competitive as any other spec, they don't care about "class fantasy".

Shamans keep saying they re "broken" when no numbers supports them, shaman dps numbers are NOT as terrible as terrible as people say.

[arandomuser]

I dont know how we get amazing expansions like mop and legion, and then boring ones like wod and bfa.

[vashe9]

I dont know how we get amazing expansions like mop and legion, and then boring ones like wod and bfa.

1) almost everyone (me included) hated mop BEFORE IT EVEN RELEASED because it removed the old talent points and introduced pandas. MOP is the only exp I havent even played or bought (I think I "received" it for free before wod) but now magically, its the best exp ever.
Did you forget that MOP "introduced" the 3 choices talents ? I received a beta key, created some panda and UNINSTALLED
Same for WOLTK, it was the first "casual expansion" (and that was true actually) but now magically, its one of the most loved expansions... People CHANGE

2) BFA is "legion 2.0" whats lacking in BFA that we had in legion ? We have the same systems (if you except sets/azerite/stupid legendaries)
YES LEGENDARIES WERE STUPID for most of classes, you have one or two cookie cutter leg/builds and you litterally SUCKED without them, it's way worse than current azerites imo
Its just that WQ and all that farming shit is not new anymore for no one

Artifact weapons gave no choice at all, all you had to do is farm to get all points... I still don't get why people were "enjoying" AF, the system sucked and I'm glad it's gone

I seriously don't see a simple solution to "fix" this game for everyone. At least, I still enjoy raids
Most of the "solutions" from players are worse than anything the dev have done until now

- - - Updated - - -

Its one thing if blizz doesnt know how to do modern class design or get new ideas, but then they should have never started massively pruning the MOP classes with a god damn sledgehammer.

pruning came WITH MOP not after MOP

- - - Updated - - -

Why post a bunch of bizarre ideas when simply reverting to MoP would fix most of the class design issues.

... get your fact straights, mop already had achetype and 3 choice talents

http://www.mop-veins.tk/beast-master...talents-glyphs

Are you kidding me ?! Thats better than current talents ?!

See all the "choices" I could make as a BM hunter ?

One example : PETS

Pets no longer have talent trees (as they did prior to Mists of Pandaria). Instead, you can simply choose one of three specialisations for your pet (Ferocity, Cunning, and Tenacity). You can change your pet's specialisation at any time (while out of combat), free of cost.

Each specialisation grants your pet a few specific abilities. Currently, Ferocity provides the highest DPS in a raid environment, so it should be the default choice. Choosing Ferocity grants your pet an important active ability, Rabid Icon Rabid. We discuss this in the rotation page.

YEAH MOP WAS SO GOOD !!!

[FelPlague]

Personally, I think class design is at its lowest point.

It's never been so poor. Not only has the class depth been almost universally removed, the balancing problems between specs are getting worse every development cycle. Class identity has essentially been removed, so much has simply been spread across the classes that exist, and even utility has been spread so widely is covered by pretty much any group.

To be honest, I'd prefer a complete reset on the class system.

I'm thinking that a system should actually start with four Basic classes in a system that is built around gear. What that means is that the classes are the Soldier (wears plate), the Servant (wears mail), the Assassin (wears leather) and the Caster (wears cloth). From here, the four Basic classes then develop into three Special classes each, and the player chooses the one they want to be. The choice is permanent. The other big change is that each Special class gets two specialisations, rather than three.

So, for example:

- The Soldier becomes a Warrior (Protection or Fury), a Paladin (Retribution or Holy) or a Death Knight (Blood or Undead).
- The Servant becomes a Hunter (Marksmanship or Beast Mastery), a Shaman (Elemental or Restoration) or a Monk (Brewmaster or Windwalker).
- The Assassin becomes a Rogue (Assassination or Outlaw), a Druid (Feral or Restoration), or a Demon Hunter (Havoc or Vengeance).
- The Caster becomes a Mage (Fire or Frost), a Priest (Holy or Shadow) or a Warlock (Demonology or Affliction).

You should notice that there are the same number of healers and tanks.

Now, we know that countless players would complain about the loss of a spec they play and would therefore never support such an approach. That's not unreasonable, either. But the plan is to fix a number of the game's currently dominating issues. I'm not being extensive but these issues include the sheer difficulty in balancing 35 specs rather than 24, the loss of class identity and individuality that this issue has caused, the sheer universality of utility that's been created, fixing two to three DPS specs and making them unique, the fact that there are more leather wearers than anything else, and the sheer blandness that has taken over the talent system.

This concept is a fundamentally different one about class design and play, so it's extremely unlikely to even be considered.

But that's the route I'd take, so make your point and your vote.

Balance between specs has never been balanced, and it has been worse then this MANY times. like back in vanilla when if a class had 2 useable specs in raids, that was INSANE and same with tbc, however alot more had 2, but usually the third was useless.

[vashe9]

Balance between specs has never been balanced, and it has been worse then this MANY times. like back in vanilla when if a class had 2 useable specs in raids, that was INSANE and same with tbc, however alot more had 2, but usually the third was useless.

In TBC most classes had a "dedicated" pvp spec (or you could play bm hunter and destroy everything in arena and pve )
Nowadays you can play any spec in any scenario (some are stronger but EVERY SPEC is viable)

[Kaver]

Personally, I think class design is at its lowest point.

It's never been so poor. Not only has the class depth been almost universally removed, the balancing problems between specs are getting worse every development cycle. Class identity has essentially been removed, so much has simply been spread across the classes that exist, and even utility has been spread so widely is covered by pretty much any group.

To be honest, I'd prefer a complete reset on the class system.

I'm thinking that a system should actually start with four Basic classes in a system that is built around gear. What that means is that the classes are the Soldier (wears plate), the Servant (wears mail), the Assassin (wears leather) and the Caster (wears cloth). From here, the four Basic classes then develop into three Special classes each, and the player chooses the one they want to be. The choice is permanent. The other big change is that each Special class gets two specialisations, rather than three.

So, for example:

- The Soldier becomes a Warrior (Protection or Fury), a Paladin (Retribution or Holy) or a Death Knight (Blood or Undead).
- The Servant becomes a Hunter (Marksmanship or Beast Mastery), a Shaman (Elemental or Restoration) or a Monk (Brewmaster or Windwalker).
- The Assassin becomes a Rogue (Assassination or Outlaw), a Druid (Feral or Restoration), or a Demon Hunter (Havoc or Vengeance).
- The Caster becomes a Mage (Fire or Frost), a Priest (Holy or Shadow) or a Warlock (Demonology or Affliction).

You should notice that there are the same number of healers and tanks.

Now, we know that countless players would complain about the loss of a spec they play and would therefore never support such an approach. That's not unreasonable, either. But the plan is to fix a number of the game's currently dominating issues. I'm not being extensive but these issues include the sheer difficulty in balancing 35 specs rather than 24, the loss of class identity and individuality that this issue has caused, the sheer universality of utility that's been created, fixing two to three DPS specs and making them unique, the fact that there are more leather wearers than anything else, and the sheer blandness that has taken over the talent system.

This concept is a fundamentally different one about class design and play, so it's extremely unlikely to even be considered.

But that's the route I'd take, so make your point and your vote.

So out of all the Rogue specs, you would remove Sub? This just shows that you know nothing about good class design..

Also Class balance has never been better. Right now you can play all specs in the game. People just cry if they do 3 % less damage than other because we are getting roo spoiled.

[rohoz]

Anyway I never understand these dumbass threads because before legion, there was no point where all specs were playable at the same time.

*shrug*

[Pua]

So out of all the Rogue specs, you would remove Sub?

No, not necessarily.

[Teriz]

Class systems like that are awful. Mainly because players want to play as the advanced classes immediately, not have to meander in the base classes. The system you're describing reminds me of Ragnarok Online which had an interesting class system, but was bogged down by having to deal with the frustrating base classes. For example, Alchemist was a cool class, but you had to deal with the personal hell of being a Novice and a Merchant first. The entire time I'm thinking why the hell can't I just play as an Alchemist from level 1?

WoW's class system is simply better on every level.

[Devilyaki]

Nope my surv hunter will be fucked because she don't exist no more...so no.

. Can live with that since my pre-legion survival hunter is gone, but cutting a spec or two from everyone is bad. No bear tanks, protection paladins.. and so on, would be something to unsubscribe for.