The Brexit aftermath thread

[Pann]

Aye, and can you guess which side I'm falling on now

As the saying goes we gotta take the rough with the smooth.

[Nigel Tufnel]

the UK could have asked the EU for SM and CU membership but to be completely excluded from the political project.

Ha
Ha ha
Ha ha ha

etc.

[Pann]

That's for them to decide. With somebody more flexible, the UK could have asked the EU for SM and CU membership but to be completely excluded from the political project.

That's an interesting proposition but wouldn't being excluded from the political project mean that the UK would not have any say in how the SM and CU was shaped? Or am I missing your point?

[Triks]

That's an interesting proposition but wouldn't being excluded from the political project mean that the UK would not have any say in how the SM and CU was shaped? Or am I missing your point?

It will and as @Nigel Tufnel pointed out, it sounds absurd but it is what it is. The whole situation is absurd to begin with.

[Pann]

It will and as @Nigel Tufnel pointed out, it sounds absurd but it is what it is. The whole situation is absurd to begin with.

I agree but I think it is an interesting point and I just wanted to be sure. I don't think it would suit the UK but I wonder if that or something along those lines would have worked as a transitional arrangement.

[Triks]

I mean it essentially is the state Norway is in. It is not ideal at all. The UK already got what it wanted so far. It kept its currency, it did not join Schengen, Cameron got public assurances that the UK could opt out of further integration like the common defense policy (just like Denmark).

That was always the least worst and only workable option but nationalism is one hell of a cocktail!

[Triks]

I agree but I think it is an interesting point and I just wanted to be sure. I don't think it would suit the UK but I wonder if that or something along those lines would have worked as a transitional arrangement.

As a transitional agreement - absolutely not because it's the only thing that would realistically solve the NI issue AND deliver Brexit.

[Pann]

Essentially you could have had a soft transition to the Norway model for the short term until solutions for the border could be created. At the same time perhaps the UK and NI could work and see if a hard border could actually work.

Yes, that was my line of thinking. It would seem to be more sensible than the current path of let's trigger A50 and then think about what we're going to do.

[Triks]

It just amazes me that at the early days after the referendum, I talked with British people and the significant majority of them had no idea the EU had given significant concessions to Cameron.

After the referendum, on this very forum, I was hearing things like:

1) "They will give us a free-trade deal because we are British!"
2) "We produce so much, we don't need the EU!"
3) "Why would the banks need the SM!"

It is what it is really. With the elderly I can understand but for young people ignorance is inexcusable.

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Yes, that was my line of thinking. It would seem to be more sensible than the current path of let's trigger A50 and then think about what we're going to do.

That's on Madame May, or rather, her advisors at the time - Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill. All of them tried to appease to the rabid wing of her party and the ultranationalist voters like Sargon of Akkad. Save for what I wrote further up, the people she needed to reconcile were:

1) The rest of her party and the opposition
2) The EU

Under such an arrangement, the UK wouldn't be in such a mess.

[Noradin]

We have known, whether we agree or not, that leaving the EU would entail leaving the CU (which rather than a serious solution appears to be yet another excuse for the main parties to not agree with each other, but that's a whole other debate) for over two years now and as such we cannot now just turn around and say we're staying in the CU (to make MPs' lives easier) and that is Brexit delivered.

Who is "we" some Brexiter-hive mind that you are part of?
Because VoteLeave claimed otherwise. Are you telling us nobody shared their opinion?

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You could also agree to an extended transition period where the UK would be in the EFTA while trying to figure out how they could both get out of the Single Market and not have borders in Ireland. Yes I know it's a unicorn solution but maybe if they actually tried they could come up with something credible. Or wait for someone other than the DUP to be in power and agree for a sea border with NI and then deliver Brexit fully like the EU has suggested from the start.

EFTA won't accept the UK as a member, not even temporarily.

[Pann]

That's on Madame May, or rather, her advisors at the time - Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill. All of them tried to appease to the rabid wing of her party and the ultranationalist voters like Sargon of Akkad. Save for what I wrote further up, the people she needed to reconcile were:

1) The rest of her party and the opposition
2) The EU

Under such an arrangement, the UK wouldn't be in such a mess.

I think there is a lot of truth in what you've written.

Ideally a select committee should have been set up to analyse pros and cons of each Brexit outcome (Norway, Flexit, WTO, etc) and how able the UK was to deliver on them before triggering A50. Unfortunately the government bowed to pressure from the extreme Brexit supporters and triggered A50 without having an idea what to do next.

But I suppose hindsight is always 20/20.

[Triks]

I think there is a lot of truth in what you've written.

Ideally a select committee should have been set up to analyse pros and cons of each Brexit outcome (Norway, Flexit, WTO, etc) and how able the UK was to deliver on them before triggering A50. Unfortunately the government bowed to pressure from the extreme Brexit supporters and triggered A50 without having an idea what to do next.

But I suppose hindsight is always 20/20.

This is not hindsight, this is simple logic. Let's say that Mrs. May decided not to listen to her advisers and instead went for a safe option. This also discounts her general election. In parliament, she always had 120 MPs who would oppose her but she would have had the bulk of the Labor party and the entire SNP to pass her bills.

Even after her election, the smart thing to do was call for a cross-party consensus on how to pursue Brexit. I admire her a lot as a person but as a politician she is absolutely clueless and naive.

[Nigel Tufnel]

After the referendum, on this very forum, I was hearing things like:

1) "They will give us a free-trade deal because we are British!"
2) "We produce so much, we don't need the EU!"
3) "Why would the banks need the SM!"

It is what it is really. With the elderly I can understand but for young people ignorance is inexcusable.

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That's on Madame May, or rather, her advisors at the time - Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill. All of them tried to appease to the rabid wing of her party and the ultranationalist voters like Sargon of Akkad.

Yep.

I was following and nodding my head in agreement. And then I read the bolded text.

Who or what is the Sargon of Akkad?

Is this some obscure WoW reference?

[zealo]

Yep.

I was following and nodding my head in agreement. And then I read the bolded text.

Who or what is the Sargon of Akkad?

Is this some obscure WoW reference?

Right wing youtuber making political videos.

If you're not familiar with him, you're not really missing out on anything of value.

[Pann]

Yep.

I was following and nodding my head in agreement. And then I read the bolded text.

Who or what is the Sargon of Akkad?

Is this some obscure WoW reference?

Some youtube prat.

[Triks]

Yep.

I was following and nodding my head in agreement. And then I read the bolded text.

Who or what is the Sargon of Akkad?

Is this some obscure WoW reference?

Right-wing political YouTuber who is a member of UKIP and an avid Brexiteer. Essentially, he is the type of voter - working/middle-class, former Labor, Brexiter, nationalist - that Theresa May wanted to have on her side.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Who or what is the Sargon of Akkad? Is this some obscure WoW reference?

Is Count Dankula more your thing?

[draykorinee]

You're not replaceable. You're part of Europe, even if some British would prefer that not to be the case. It'll always feel "wrong" when you're not part of the club.

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LOL, did you? Apparently not... rofl.

I meant in regard to things like our global standing, industry, trade etc. We're not important. That's not to say we're not wanted.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Is Count Dankula more your thing?

This is a whole new world of pain isn't it?

[Slant]

I meant in regard to things like our global standing, industry, trade etc. We're not important. That's not to say we're not wanted.

Everyone is important in the EU. I would quite probably have the same attitude if Luxembourg left. Or.. heck, Greece. I demonstrably did have the same attitude and was vehemently opposing a possible Grexit scenario, much willing to defend and literally pay for Greece to stay in the Union with my own taxmoney.

The whole "we're not important" or "we're the Empire" spiel, both of them, are false and need to stop. Nobody is judging the nation by... the profit they bring us. Or whatever they're "worth" to us. So, arrogance or meekness... neither are warranted nor asked for. What we're asking for is people to simply stop judging so much, see the advantages of being in a team, see errors in the system and help fix them. Instead of the constant us vs. them stuff.

I know, you mean well and all, but focus on other things and don't ride the humility train when nobody asked you to. Although, I admit, personally I think it's a refreshing contrast to Dribs' "the EU will bow down to us, because Empire" number... haha