[Spoilers] Alliance Cinematic for Battle of Dazar'alor

[Grazrug]

This isn't even spoilers..

Awesome cinematic by the way..

Though, the story is 100% written for Sylvanas - not the Horde itself - to be losing. All her plans are foiled.

That you still try to serperate the Horde from it's leader is baffeling.

[Aucald]

The Alliance had already abducted the Zandalari priestess and the grand vizier and stuck them in a shitty prison cell to be rescued by the Horde, then sent a fleet after them that got blown up. Additionally, they'd already attacked the nation allied with the Horde in this dungeon, it's just that their motives for doing so are nonsensical. If the intent was to destroy the fleet and capture the King/princess to use as a hostage, i.e end their ability to project force and thus make the Horde lose interest in them, you'd achieve the same aim without it being so sickeningly saccharine. The aspect that doesn't work is the whole "Separate them from the Horde by peacefully attacking them" and its addendum "Don't attack them while they're sad, or you're Sylvanas" . It exists only to further ensure the Alliance are completely morally pure that they cease to make sense. The war is on-going. Not pushing their advantage discounts the sacrifice of the men they sent to die in Nazmir and allows Sylvanas more time to act, putting more of their own at risk.

Talanji and Zul were likely being held as a soft-ransom back to Zandalar and Rastakhan - a "hey, we found your daughter and this guy in or near hostile Horde waters, do you want them back? You do, well, here you go - and I would probably be careful about those Horde guys, you wouldn't anything to happen to the ones you love, right?" It's the perfect kind of highroading threat that the Alliance is known for, after all. The Horde puts the kibosh on that by successfully freeing Talanji and getting her back to Zuldazar, where she can inform Rastakhan of what actually happened and start the process of cementing the Horde/Zandalari alliance. I admit this a heavy-handed approach to the story, but I mean really - WoW is not the kind of story where we delve into Machiavellian plots, counterplots, the minutiae of wartime politicking, or deep state spycraft. It's a sword-and-sorcery high fantasy context, so any kind of political maneuvering is going to be sketched, not elaborately depicted on the individual level.

I haven't done it on live, but at least in the PTR you had Zandalari troops with Horde tabards backing up the attack.

I just recently did it as Alliance on Live and there are no Zandalari present. Trolls, yes, but Darkspear by the looks of it - just the general mix of Horde forces you'd expect.

[Mehrunes]

In the Alliance summit after the Battle of Dazar'alor Jaina says she's still recovering - she was injured in the battle and she's not quite back to full power. Gelbin definitely came out of it worse, but Jaina also didn't escape unscathed.

And just like Malfurion, she will instantly recover from it and slaughter more Horde soldiers without a hiccup. At best she'll get a magical spleen whispering her things out of this.

[Lochton]

That you still try to serperate the Horde from it's leader is baffeling.

The Horde has better leaders, not in need of a leader selected by corruption of mind.

[Super Dickmann]

And just like Malfurion, she will instantly recover from it and slaughter more Horde soldiers without a hiccup. At best she'll get a magical spleen whispering her things out of this.

Her spleen is talking about the Zandalari feeling bad and like Blanduin's bones it carries incredible moral virtue. It all makes sense now.

@Aucald

In that case, the Zandalari connection to the Horde in reference to the war with the Alliance is less pronounced but still there. All the Alliance zone invasions are into Zandalari territory and occur prior to the Battle for Dazar'alor, including things that are definitely not very nice, like filling baby dinosaur eggs with pure evil and entropy.

But as regards the Alliance's overall attitude. It creates more issues than it solves while downplaying the Horde. Cut out that line entirely and just include the stuff about being wary for Sylvanas and you don't make it sound like the Alliance are so incredibly nice that they're willing to let their enemy rearm and fight but instead just need time to get into position, referring back to Anduin talking about how he's running out of troops and they're stretched on other fronts.

@Gehco

Sylvanas is the leader of the Horde. The war objective is the core conceit of the expansion and the entire campaign story. It's what you strive to do at every turn and that every Horde character there attempts to achieve, except Baine of course. When you fail, it is the Horde that's failing, not Sylvanas in isolation. There's no situation where there's some inspiration to be gleamed from losing constantly and having your highest moral virtue be aiding the enemy in defeating you because of one jackass getting raised after you were fine with genocide and mass necromancy.

[THEORACLE64]

This was set up ages ago. By this point the Horde failing is par for the course. Maybe if we hadn't spent our entire war campaign raising random assholes that go on to betray us and we hadn't handed our plot device to the king's vault instead of say, using it. I look forward to the Derek plan failing as well because of that treacherous cow. At least we still have Prisclla "The Horde killed my husband, but I'm totally on your side " Ashvane.

Anyway, enough bitching. Good to see a gnome finally achieve something and Jaina is great in this too. You guys deserve to enjoy a victory at least for a little without getting lectured by our spiritual liege.

That treacherous cow is doing the most Horde thing that’s been done this expansion so far.

[Super Dickmann]

That treacherous cow is doing the most Horde thing that’s been done this expansion so far.

Yes, when you kill your own troops to help some jackass you don't know, that's the peak of morality. After all, we wouldn't want to partake in unwilling necromancy. That's why we sign over a million souls to Bwonsamdi.

[Mehrunes]

That treacherous cow is doing the most Horde thing that’s been done this expansion so far.

What part of it makes it "the most Horde thing"? Is it the overall treason? Is it killing Horde soldiers? Is it aiding the Horde's Proudmoore overlords? Is it giving a shit about an Alliance member that was already dead before Tauren (and most other Horde races) even joined the Horde? Is it all of the above?

[Aucald]

In that case, the Zandalari connection to the Horde in reference to the war with the Alliance is less pronounced but still there. All the Alliance zone invasions are into Zandalari territory and occur prior to the Battle for Dazar'alor, including things that are definitely not very nice, like filling baby dinosaur eggs with pure evil and entropy.

There's a pretty pronounced difference in tone between the Alliance and Horde missions into the opposing territory, as it were. The Horde in Kul Tiras is painted as much more forcibly hostile - with attacks on various locations, missions to secure random Kul Tiran people (or their bodies), etc. etc. The Alliance missions into Kul Tiras, while still hostile, are less so; feeling more about observation and reconnaissance than outright attacking the Zandalari. Contrast and compare each:

Horde Tiragarde Sound: You take over a neutral pirate town as a base of operations.
Horde Drustvar: You spread out from Anyport to eventually take Krazzlefrazz Outpost as your base.
Horde Stormsong Valley: It starts with a battle with the Stormsong regiment, forcibly defeating them on the shores and then expelling them from the already-established Warfang Hold.

Alliance Zuldazar: You fight Horde forces picking off the survivors of the initial ships that Talanji wrecked, and then relocate to Xibala to do some archaeology and tussle with the Nightborne.
Alliance Nazmir: The Alliance tries a rather hamfisted attempt to ally with the Blood Trolls, one of their own goes a bit too native, and you put an end to it.
Alliance Vol'dun: You establish a shoreline settlement, do some general recon, and secure a friendship with Vorrik's Sethrak.

But as regards the Alliance's overall attitude. It creates more issues than it solves while downplaying the Horde. Cut out that line entirely and just include the stuff about being wary for Sylvanas and you don't make it sound like the Alliance are so incredibly nice that they're willing to let their enemy rearm and fight but instead just need time to get into position, referring back to Anduin talking about how he's running out of troops and they're stretched on other fronts.

I consider it more of a hamfisted narrative halt than I do any kind of battle strategy. I'll concede the idea is weird, because it is - under normal circumstances anyone would want to press that advantage *somehow*. But in this case it kind of just comes across as a way of saying "we must wait for the next chapter" without outright saying that and breaking the fourth wall. I just kind of gave it a pass as a separation of story and gameplay thing.

[Rendark]

It's rare to see something like this but there's literally nothing they can do to fix the story at this point.

[THEORACLE64]

Yes, when you kill your own troops to help some jackass you don't know, that's the peak of morality. After all, we wouldn't want to partake in unwilling necromancy. That's why we sign over a million souls to Bwonsamdi.

What part of it makes it "the most Horde thing"? Is it the overall treason? Is it killing Horde soldiers? Is it aiding the Horde's Proudmoore overlords? Is it giving a shit about an Alliance member that was already dead before Tauren (and most other Horde races) even joined the Horde? Is it all of the above?

I spy triggered sylvanas fan boy weeaboos.

Infracted.

[Mehrunes]

I spy triggered sylvanas fan boy weeaboos.

I spy zero actual argument.

[Terongor]

The position of High King essentially functions as supreme commander of the united Alliance forces, those from every client-race. Anduin gets the final vote on strategy matters, and while he takes all his councilors seriously in the end the decision lies with him. Any of his fellow leaders can opt to withdraw their forces temporary, and likely also permanently by leaving the Alliance - so Tyrande and Malfurion would have the final say over how many of their Sentinels, Wardens, Druids, or Huntresses will be given to the Alliance to utilize as Anduin wishes. In the case of Darkshore, Tyrande didn't leave the Alliance but withdrew her forces to focus on Darkshore sense Anduin was dragging his feet on committing to their special cause. Once Darkshore is won, it is likely these forces will return to the Alliance fold under Anduin's purview to continue the fight against the Horde offensive.

https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/260962040292720641

[Super Dickmann]

I spy triggered sylvanas fan boy weeaboos.

A weeb? That's a bit much. Next you'll call me a void elf player.

@Aucald

I was a bit unclear, but I'm not referring to the initial 8.0 series. I mean the pre-Battle for Dazar'alor 8.1 faction invasions, where you prominently attack Zandalari targets and purposefully engage in sacrilege to produce a reaction. To be clear, I'm not condemning that morally, so much as saying that if you use these kind of means, playing the peaceful card later is harder to do, because you've offended core Zandalari sensibilities.

As for the "We can't attack now, the patch is out of content. We have to wait until the next release." aspect of the line, that's true, that's the main purpose of it, but it didn't have to be coached in this language. It just takes the winds out of the sail of a legitimate Alliance victory and is condescending and irritating to any Horde player exposed to it.

[Firefall]

.
just like teldrassil and elegy was intended to trigger alliance players. it is suppose to motivate you, you can't have victory without defeat.

Excuse me but I lost the undercity (and while not explicitly stated, almost certainly the rest of Tirisfal now that it isn't defended at all), my home in life and in death, because a bunch of people who don't and never lived there think it is their land.

[THEORACLE64]

I spy zero actual argument.

I don’t need to argue anything - it’s clear why Baine is displaying more Horde values than Sylvanas or any of the other Horde leaders right now. If you can’t figure that out for yourself, then...

[Super Dickmann]

I don’t need to argue anything - it’s clear why Baine is displaying more Horde values than Sylvanas or any of the other Horde leaders right now. If you can’t figure that out for yourself, then...

What are Horde values and where can one find them?

[Mehrunes]

I don’t need to argue anything - it’s clear why Baine is displaying more Horde values than Sylvanas or any of the other Horde leaders right now. If you can’t figure that out for yourself, then...

True. You needing to argue anything would imply that you actually have an argument in the first place. And that isn't really the case.

[Aucald]

I was a bit unclear, but I'm not referring to the initial 8.0 series. I mean the pre-Battle for Dazar'alor 8.1 faction invasions, where you prominently attack Zandalari targets and purposefully engage in sacrilege to produce a reaction. To be clear, I'm not condemning that morally, so much as saying that if you use these kind of means, playing the peaceful card later is harder to do, because you've offended core Zandalari sensibilities.

That I think is a different context and scenario altogether. By the point of the Assaults unification on both sides is just about done - the Alliance have squared away Gorak Tul, Stormsong, and Ashvane whereas the Horde have dispensed of the distractions of the Blood Trolls, Zul, and General Jakra'zet. The Horde are pressuring the Kul Tirans to sever ties with the Alliance to stop their aggression and the Alliance are maneuvering drive a wedge between the Horde and Zandalari, as well as sabotaging their fleet to minimize their standing as a potential Horde asset. We've moved into another phase of the conflict with higher stakes and pronounced violence. To be honest I think Brennadam may well be the biggest outlier on the Horde side of things - it's an event in Kul Tiras which has no easy Alliance analog in Zandalar, to my reckoning. It kind of changes the tone of everything as concerns Kul Tiras vs. Zandalar in the context of the faction war for the Kul Tiras side.

As for the "We can't attack now, the patch is out of content. We have to wait until the next release." aspect of the line, that's true, that's the main purpose of it, but it didn't have to be coached in this language. It just takes the winds out of the sail of a legitimate Alliance victory and is condescending and irritating to any Horde player exposed to it.

It's not something you'd see a Horde player, assuming you didn't also take in both sides of the content. Kind of puts it into a vague, out of context category for me in that regard.

[Zaganite]

What about his forces in the Siege of Orgrimmar? When he shows up with Alleria to reinforce the Alliance in battle for lordaeron and helps turn the tide? The things he did on the broken shore? He's had moments before.

I've said this before. Geblin has been pretty much always there for Alliance moments and has always done something notable each time. Its a massive loss to the Alliance thats hes out of action right now