Sylvanas's plan

[Aucald]

I'm starting to think the real assassination target is Calia and never was a Proudmoore.

Seriously I can even see it now, he meets Calia, stabs her 5 times in the gut, and then mutters. "The Banshee Queen sends her regards."

Does Sylvanas even know that Calia is still "alive," for want of a better term? Knowledge of her recent resurrection seems pretty rare - Jaina is pretty high-placed in the Alliance leadership and even she's only heard rumors (and those may only be about Calia's actions during the "Before the Storm" and not her later raising into undeath). I think Sylvanas's more direct concern would be Kul Tiras itself, and the Proudmoore Admiralty leadership specifically.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Derek says in the scenario "I can't go home... can I?" to Jaina, and she confirms, then she says she knows others who may be able to help him (presumably Calia and Alonsus Faol) and says she will take him to them.

So, even if he is under her influence right now, this already isnt working out as Sylvanas planned, Derek is going to be getting help long before he ever goes home to be the weapon Sylvanas wanted to turn him into, which means if he was turned it will likely be undone by Calia and Alonsus.

Hmm? More Lightforged Undead hints you say? That makes two patches in a row now!







Anyway, as to Sylvanas' plan, you're assuming she (or Blizzard) have a plan.

[Florena]

Even if Derek is a pawn of Sylvanas as so many believe... What will he accomplish?
There's no way he can kill Jaina. And even if he did...
What? Sylvanas honestly thinks that by murdering Jaina or Katherine the Kul Tirans or the Alliance will back off?

Remember how the Night Elves backed off after Teldrassil?
Yeah, no.

Sylvanas' tactics are always presented as shrewd and cunning only to backfire spectacularly

To be fair, killing Jaina would be a big blow to the Alliance even if it didn't make KT leave again. I guess we'll never know how she INTENDED to use Derek now though. But yeah, she's done a lot of dumb things and a lot of her tactical 'brilliance' is just falling back on blight or Val'kyr.

[Army Dreamer]

I just thought of a possible genius play by Sylvanas and I need to know if that would actually make some kind of sense. Now that you've seen the Proudmoore Reunion cinematic, I wanna say that I do believe it's a good thing that Baine got arrested, he's gonna be protected in an horde hub from any alliance leader who would wanna come and kill the him, believing that he knew Derek would be under Sylvanas's control (cause he obviously is) and just delivered the pawn. Maybe it's somewhat to "force protect" his commander that Sylvanas did this, to protect him and just to draw the alliance to attack the horde and strike back so that she can use the power of Xalatath against them to do a complete butchery and raise them afterwards .

But again, it's just a theory, could that actually be it though ?

Too good to be true.

[Skulltaker]

Derek says in the scenario "I can't go home... can I?" to Jaina, and she confirms, then she says she knows others who may be able to help him (presumably Calia and Alonsus Faol) and says she will take him to them.

So, even if he is under her influence right now, this already isnt working out as Sylvanas planned, Derek is going to be getting help long before he ever goes home to be the weapon Sylvanas wanted to turn him into, which means if he was turned it will likely be undone by Calia and Alonsus.

Has Sylvanas learned of the Lightforged Undead? She might mave him there to kill Calia Menethil. It would make sense for the Alliance to take a family member of a prominent Alliance family to her, if Sylvanas knows about her.

[Mehrunes]

Bla bla bla.

Quoting it separately to point out because your strongest argument in the entire thread demands special attention.

All it matters is that the ONLY successful Sylvanas campaign is when she breaks free from the Scourge/dreadlords and creates the Forsaken. In all her other major military campaigns (i.e. when she's actually leading instead of brooding in a dark corner) she's either been defeated or has obtained a pyrrhic victory. Not what I'd call a master strategist, that is for certain.

Again, War of Thorns wasn't a phyrric victory. If you think it was, you don't understand what phyrric victory is. Also, Forsaken ultimately won the Gilneas campaign, including the Silverpine interlude where Gilneas forces were aided by the most elite Alliance army. They also won in Hillsbrad against Stormpikes. And in WPL against Thassarian's forces. And against Scourge in Howling Fjord.

And you defending the abomination of writing that is the siege of Lordaeron makes me think that you either have awful taste or are downright trolling. So bye bye!

Me pointing out the inaccuracies of your argument does not translate to me defending Blizzard's writing, try again.

I mean, did he actually PLAY the freaking scenario? Blight outright kills you as a Horde character if you dont equip the provided mask. Masks that evidently the Alliance didn't have, even if they knew fully well how fond is Sylvanas of poisons and stuff. Alliance should have never reached Lordaeron, true, but since they did, Sylvanas should have never made it out of there alive. Shit writing for both factions.

Maybe it's you who didn't read shit.

Nah, it's still you. Because nothing of what you bolded constitutes a defense of the quality of writing. And I'm perfectly aware that the Blight kills you if you don't wear mask. The thing is, the Horde forces weren't taking showers in the Blight, nor was there any Blight itself in the air. Because Blight is a liquid and doesn't fucking float in the air. What floats in the air? Ah, that's right, the vapor of a liquid. Again, Blight melts through stone. If Blight itself was sprayed directly at someone in a gas mask, both the person and the mask would still melt.

Also, once against I need to remind you that you yourself pointed out that Alliance survived (or managed to breach the walls) only because to a deus ex machina. Are you really, really sure you want to go down the path of saying Sylvanas should have never made it out of there alive?

Never mind that as recently as in Before the Storm we were reminded that Sylvanas can kill people with her voice. So even if Alliance pulled out a protective gear against the Blight that even the Forsaken do not have out of their asses, Sylvanas would still be able to just kill Anduin and his posse in an instant. And the only reason she didn't is because of Anduin and his posse's plot armor. So, once again, hit and miss on your part.

It isn't easy, but it should be done, unless you want your entire army to be decimated with poison. Maybe it's you who's being ignorant. And besieging the capital of a known blight fan without expecting her using it... are you serious m8?

And since unlike the Forsaken spraying the Blight who were exposed just to the vapor, the Alliance would be sprayed at. Do elaborate how something that melts through stone would protect them even if they had masks.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Has Sylvanas learned of the Lightforged Undead? She might mave him there to kill Calia Menethil. It would make sense for the Alliance to take a family member of a prominent Alliance family to her, if Sylvanas knows about her.

Pretty sure she has no idea that whole attack in Arathi didn't go according to plan. But knowing Blizz she may be magically aware of it and was chestmastering the whole thing knowing the Lightforged exist.

[Varodoc]

What is Sylvanas hoping to achieve? Even if Derek murdered every Proudmoore, Jaina included, the Kul Tiran fleet, that is now Azeroth's mightiest, wouldn't just disappear into nothingness. What's more, motivated by the deaths of their leaders, the Kul Tirans would be pushed to fight even harder, like the Kaldorei, like the Gilneans, like the Zandalari most recently. Sylvanas' plan is inherently flawed, as usual.

[Thage]

This all really hinges on one big problem. Sylvanas prefers to try to break peoples' spirits... and she's really bad at it. Every time she's tried she only succeeds in pissing people off instead, with maybe one or two exceptions.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

What is Sylvanas hoping to achieve? Even if Derek murdered every Proudmoore, Jaina included, the Kul Tiran fleet, that is now Azeroth's mightiest, wouldn't just disappear into nothingness. What's more, motivated by the deaths of their leaders, the Kul Tirans would be pushed to fight even harder, like the Kaldorei, like the Gilneans, like the Zandalari most recently. Sylvanas' plan is inherently flawed, as usual.

I think the idea is that, given before Jaina returned Kul'tiras was about to tear itself apart in Civil War, removing the Proudmoores entirely would have left Kul'tiras too busy fighting itself for who takes over to assist the Alliance.

[Mehrunes]

Has Sylvanas learned of the Lightforged Undead? She might mave him there to kill Calia Menethil. It would make sense for the Alliance to take a family member of a prominent Alliance family to her, if Sylvanas knows about her.

The only Lightforged undead is Calia and Sylvanas hasn't mentioned her since Arathi so it's unlikely she knows she's still alive (and, consequently, about Lightforged undead).

[Varodoc]

I think the idea is that, given before Jaina returned Kul'tiras was about to tear itself apart in Civil War, removing the Proudmoores entirely would have left Kul'tiras too busy fighting itself for who takes over to assist the Alliance.

The people who started that civil war are all gone. Lord Stormsong and Lady Waycrest are dead, Gorak Tul is dead, and Ashvane has been exposed for her crimes and is now a prisoner of Sylvanas.

The Kul Tirans won't just pack their bags and leave because their Lord Admiral was murdered. If anything, they will be pushed much closer to the Alliance.

[Dellis0991]

The people who started that civil war are all gone. Lord Stormsong and Lady Waycrest are dead, Gorak Tul is dead, and Ashvane has been exposed for her crimes and is now a prisoner of Sylvanas.

The Kul Tirans won't just pack their bags and leave because their Lord Admiral was murdered. If anything, they will be pushed much closer to the Alliance.

i don't think we seen the end of Gorak Tul.

[Varodoc]

i don't think we seen the end of Gorak Tul.

A powerless spirit with no mortal ally left to summon him. Hardly a threat.

[Mrbleedinggums]

Even if Derek is a pawn of Sylvanas as so many believe... What will he accomplish?
There's no way he can kill Jaina. And even if he did...
What? Sylvanas honestly thinks that by murdering Jaina or Katherine the Kul Tirans or the Alliance will back off?

Remember how the Night Elves backed off after Teldrassil?
Yeah, no.

Sylvanas' tactics are always presented as shrewd and cunning only to backfire spectacularly

Well considering Malfurion was supposed to be axed by Saurfang and he royally fucked that up... If he was killed and Teldrassil was taken like originally planned, it'd be a completely different story. Of course the NElves aren't going to back down though because it wouldn't make sense gamewise for an MMO. That's the issue with Blizzard, they're trying to incorporate an attempt at a grand GoT style story in a MMO where you can't just write off a race or faction because it would piss their playerbase off.

If George RR Martin was writing, the Nelves would have had their corpses desecrated and hung above the buildings in Teldrassil and Anduin or Jaina would have been killed in the Siege of Undercity. Sylvanas would have already been attacked by Saurfang and one would die a horrible death (hint hint, it's not the banshee that can go incorporeal and destroy you from the inside-out)

[Jonwho]

No one is going to ask why Derek suddenly look so well preserved (new model)? Just recently, he was your regular mess up Forsaken. What change? He went through the same ritual than Nathanos?

OT: Derek is so brainwashed that he should be throwing up bubbles. We just need to wait until 8.3, the so called "counterattack patch of the Horde (Sylvanas)"

[Florena]

A powerless spirit with no mortal ally left to summon him. Hardly a threat.

I'm honestly not sure if he's even still alive. If beating him in the blighted lands was like killing Ragnaros in the Firelands etc. Given his vendetta against kul'tiras specifically I think it would also feel odd to bring him back after that.

[Melsiren]

Does Sylvanas even know that Calia is still "alive," for want of a better term? Knowledge of her recent resurrection seems pretty rare - Jaina is pretty high-placed in the Alliance leadership and even she's only heard rumors (and those may only be about Calia's actions during the "Before the Storm" and not her later raising into undeath). I think Sylvanas's more direct concern would be Kul Tiras itself, and the Proudmoore Admiralty leadership specifically.

On my phone so is will answer as best as I can briefly.

I have doubts, I mean it's not stated right now about what she is aware of. However, she had spies that informed her on Saurfang's escape shortly after it happened. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility she might know about Calia.

I think everyone is expecting Derek to kill someone, but there is chance the Proudmoore angle could have been a misdirection.

Honestly, I am expecting this to go the most obvious direction. However, there is a part of my brain that is getting massive red flags since they are sending him off to meet Calia.

[Schattenlied]

Has Sylvanas learned of the Lightforged Undead? She might mave him there to kill Calia Menethil. It would make sense for the Alliance to take a family member of a prominent Alliance family to her, if Sylvanas knows about her.

I can't see how she would know about Calia, as far as Sylvanas should be concerned she's dead, it's not like anyone involved in her resurrection would have told Sylvie about it.

[Dartz1979]

I am attached to sylvanas course all three sisters are sexy