People are giving up veganism like crazy

[ellieg]

So, then you are arguing for me, now? Great.

I look forward to your evidence.

I don't think BMI is a good indicator of health. But you do. So since u do, he is 6'5 and 300 lbs.

That's 35.6 BMI. Obese. He isnt healthy. Proof that vegan athletes arent healthy. That is how you seem to "debate" lol.

[Bodakane]

I've never understood why vegans aren't allowed to be pretentious. I mean, they go out of their way every meal, every trip to the store, etc., to be a better person; I think that entitles them to shame me a little.

There's no need to be pretentious. Most people live their life based on their own set of morals and ethics, vegans are no different.

Being a vegan, I have run into quite a number of people who think I'm pretentious simply because I'm vegan. Or who think I'm preaching simply because I declined cheese. More times than not, people feel uncomfortable around vegans.

Here's what normally happens....

Person: Want some meat/dairy/eggs etc.?
Me: (Smiling) No thank you, i'm vegan.
Person: Oh....uh....oh.....
Me: It's ok
Person: I...I...I couldn't;t do that. I could never give up meat.
Me: No problem
Person: Not even cheese?
Me: (Still smiling) Nope, no animal products at all.

<The best it goes, ends there...but it often goes past that....>

Person: Do you ever cheat?
Me: Nope.
Person: Not even a little?
Me: No, cause for me it is about my ethical stance.
Person: Well what's so wrong with eating cheese or eggs?!?!?!

<At this point, there's no way to answer that without coming across like I'm preaching. Even if I try to not discuss it further, then I'm being pretentious and am too good to talk about it>

And all of that, is it when its not just openly hostile like this thread.

[ellieg]

There's no need to be pretentious. Most people live their life based on their own set of morals and ethics, vegans are no different.

Being a vegan, I have run into quite a number of people who think I'm pretentious simply because I'm vegan. Or who think I'm preaching simply because I declined cheese. More times than not, people feel uncomfortable around vegans.

Here's what normally happens....

Person: Want some meat/dairy/eggs etc.?
Me: (Smiling) No thank you, i'm vegan.
Person: Oh....uh....oh.....
Me: It's ok
Person: I...I...I couldn't;t do that. I could never give up meat.
Me: No problem
Person: Not even cheese?
Me: (Still smiling) Nope, no animal products at all.

<The best it goes, ends there...but it often goes past that....>

Person: Do you ever cheat?
Me: Nope.
Person: Not even a little?
Me: No, cause for me it is about my ethical stance.
Person: Well what's so wrong with eating cheese or eggs?!?!?!

<At this point, there's no way to answer that without coming across like I'm preaching. Even if I try to not discuss it further, then I'm being pretentious and am too good to talk about it>

And all of that, is it when its not just openly hostile like this thread.

The thread is only hostile because you accused every meat eater of being on the same level as a dog fighter.

[Bodakane]

The thread is only hostile because you accused every meat eater of being on the same level as a dog fighter.

First, no the fuck i didn't.
Secondly, I challenge you to go back and read the thread before I even came into it.

[ellieg]

If someone was into dog fighting, is it considered pretentious or holier than thou to voice your opinions against dog fighting?

That's how vegans feel. We feel eating meat and dairy is just as bad for those animals as dog fighting is for the dogs.

What did you mean when you posted this?

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If you were walking down the street and someone was beating an innocent dog to death, is that ok?

Why would you ask this question?

[Nurasu]

The thread is only hostile because you accused every meat eater of being on the same level as a dog fighter.

Once you become self aware of the conditions most of our food animals are kept and killed in, I don't see how there's ethically a difference anyway. As a society, we've condemned one and not the other, which is whatever, but to claim they're not actually "holier than thou" on that issue in an ethical and moral sense is just disingenuous in my opinion.

But yeah, @Bodakane, I was more getting to the fact that holding a moral highground automatically makes you "pretentious". I also agree there's no need to go out of your way to be so, and some people do that.

[javierdsv]

- The body does not need meat.

Yes it does.

[Machismo]

I don't think BMI is a good indicator of health. But you do. So since u do, he is 6'5 and 300 lbs.

That's 35.6 BMI. Obese. He isnt healthy. Proof that vegan athletes arent healthy. That is how you seem to "debate" lol.

I'm simply pointing out that vegans are less likely to be obese, and that is a huge health advantage. If you don't like it, provide your own studies.

You want to whine about statistics, while refusing to provide any studies of your own. I never said all vegans are healthy, so you are building a straw man, because you refuse to back up your claims.

Once again, not my problem.

[ellieg]

I get your fine with killing animals for fun, physically and emotionally torturing them for shits and giggles., That's great, good for you. I'm not ok with that stuff happening and I speak up about it. Just like a other people would if they see a dog getting beaten and it doesn't;t really matter if the dog is going to be eaten after or not.

It isn't a false equivalence.

If the person said they were going to eat the dog after beating it, then it would be wrong to say something?

How abt these?

[Nurasu]

How abt these?

He's not saying you're on the same level as the one doing the beating, just that you're complicit.

[ellieg]

I'm simply pointing out that vegans are less likely to be obese, and that is a huge health advantage. If you don't like it, provide your own studies.

You want to whine about statistics, while refusing to provide any studies of your own. I never said all vegans are healthy, so you are building a straw man, because you refuse to back up your claims.

Once again, not my problem.

Not being obese is a huge health advantage. We can agree on that. Obviously by comment that most vegans are rail thin, means I also agree they are less likely to be obese.

The initial point of contention was because you were comparing ppl on a very specialized diet like a vegan one, to ppl who have literally never given a second thought abt the food they eat and why. If you want to get meaningful data, youd have to compare vegan diet to another diet. Or at least to a group of ppl that understand what calories are. As stated before, theres no point in posting studies if we cant agree on that one principle

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He's not saying you're on the same level as the one doing the beating, just that you're complicit.

Literally stated that we are fine with killing animals for fun. Just for shits and giggles.

He cant state that and then expect ppl to take him seriously.

[Machismo]

Not being obese is a huge health advantage. We can agree on that. Obviously by comment that most vegans are rail thin, means I also agree they are less likely to be obese.

The initial point of contention was because you were comparing ppl on a very specialized diet like a vegan one, to ppl who have literally never given a second thought abt the food they eat and why. If you want to get meaningful data, youd have to compare vegan diet to another diet. Or at least to a group of ppl that understand what calories are. As stated before, theres no point in posting studies if we cant agree on that one principle

That's the problem, you are pushing subjective belief against objective data.

So, provide me that meaningful data. Otherwise, why are you still talking?

[ellieg]

That's the problem, you are pushing subjective belief against objective data.

So, provide me that meaningful data. Otherwise, why are you still talking?

So we dont agree on that principle?

Who are vegans? More likely to be wealthier than average population to be able to afford that selective diet. Do you agree with that? Do you believe that wealthy ppl are more likely to be educated? Do you understand at all what I'm trying to say?

If not we can stop.

[Bodakane]

What did you mean when you posted this?

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Why would you ask this question?

Because I was trying to get you and the others to understand, that people often speak up about things they think are wrong. I have said numerous times in this thread, I'm not trying to get you or anyone else to agree with veganism, I'm trying to get you to understand our argument instead of misrepresenting it as pretentiousness or wanting to tell people what to eat or how to live.

For example I said this, pages ago:

Not really.

I said before I'm not trying to get anyone to go vegan, I'm just trying to get you to understand our argument....not agree with it, just fucking understand it, so I don't have to hear about how we are trying to tell people what to do or eat or how to live.

I don't expect most of you to go vegan, but if you're going to come in here and attack me, then attack for me for my actual points not ones you all make up and attribute to me.

Did you see where this thread was hostile towards vegans before I ever made a single comment?

[ellieg]

Because I was trying to get you and the others to understand, that people often speak up about things they think are wrong. I have said numerous times in this thread, I'm not trying to get you or anyone else to agree with veganism, I'm trying to get you to understand our argument instead of misrepresenting it as pretentiousness or wanting to tell people what to eat or how to live.

For example I said this, pages ago:


I don't expect most of you to go vegan, but if you're going to come in here and attack me, then attack for me for my actual points not ones you all make up and attribute to me.

Did you see where this thread was hostile towards vegans before I ever made a single comment?

Yes but why go as extreme as beating your dog to death and dog fighting? Do you believe eating meat is as bad as that? Why would you choose that as a comparison and not something more tame such as littering?

[Bodakane]

Literally stated that we are fine with killing animals for fun. Just for shits and giggles.

He cant state that and then expect ppl to take him seriously.

You agreed you don't need meat for survival. You believe it easier and tastier.

That means you are ok with animals being killed because it is easier and tastier.

This is simple logic.

[Machismo]

So we dont agree on that principle?

Who are vegans? More likely to be wealthier than average population to be able to afford that selective diet. Do you agree with that? Do you believe that wealthy ppl are more likely to be educated? Do you understand at all what I'm trying to say?

If not we can stop.

I have not seen the data on who is most likely to be a vegan. Do you have that data? It would seem reckless to make a generalization without data.

The BMI data that was provided showed the average vegan is simply not as heavy as meat eaters. That doesn't make them rail-thin, especially in the States. By the data, it simply makes them less fat.

If you are going to make a claim about social and wealth status of vegans versus non-vegans, you may want to show some data to back it up. It may be true, but as of now, it's just speculation on your part.

[Bodakane]

Yes but why go as extreme as beating your dog to death and dog fighting? Do you believe eating meat is as bad as that? Why would you choose that as a comparison and not something more tame such as littering?

I don't see much of a difference to be honest. What is the difference?

I mean I've illustrated the similarities numerous times.

In both animals are hurt, killed and tortured. Both are done for enjoyment.

[ellieg]

And I understand your argument but do you understand that is your subjective opinion and not an objective fact? You say you don't want to tell ppl how to live or eat but that's literally what you are doing.

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I don't see much of a difference to be honest. What is the difference?

So ppl who eat meat are just as bad as ppl that beat dogs to death.

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I have not seen the data on who is most likely to be a vegan. Do you have that data? It would seem reckless to make a generalization without data.

The BMI data that was provided showed the average vegan is simply not as heavy as meat eaters. That doesn't make them rail-thin, especially in the States. By the data, it simply makes them less fat.

If you are going to make a claim about social and wealth status of vegans versus non-vegans, you may want to show some data to back it up. It may be true, but as of now, it's just speculation on your part.

Then we cant agree that comparing a specialized group to a non specialized group is apple's to oranges. Theres no point in further discussing this. Hope you have a good rest of your day

[Nurasu]

And I understand your argument but do you understand that is your subjective opinion and not an objective fact? You say you don't want to tell ppl how to live or eat but that's literally what you are doing.

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So ppl who eat meat are just as bad as ppl that beat dogs to death.

It doesn't seem that hard to me. Eating meat shouldn't be made illegal tomorrow (I think society will eventually get there with technological advancements) but it shouldn't be so hard for us to admit we're lazy pieces of shit that contribute to the pain and suffering of animals for still eating it.