Mythic > Raid

[nToxik]

How much smartass? The cost is astronomical ...

Are you saying that the only way to get loot from M+ is to buy the run?

[Cempa]

Are you saying that the only way to get loot from M+ is to buy the run?

Now you're just making sh*t up man .. And what does your question have anything to do with the point of the thread?

On thread: Cross realm raiding/mythic/grouping is why we have so much boosting .. End it except for grouping via in-game tool?

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So really your argument is less that they should be rewarding raiders better, but that they should be rewarding raid leaders better. I can guarantee you the average raider has the same responsibilities as the average mythic+ runner does, the only difference is the raid leader who puts things together. I do wish people would stop confusing the two.

One and the same .. The reward guild/raid leaders argument has been raised/discussed and put to bed, no one is trying to necro that topic.

Raid leader is nothing without people in that raid. Being part of a community/guild is a huge part of gaming .. at least for me .. Slowly it is as if that is being chipped away at .. We have PLAY 2 WIN game today with this mythic + spammable route.

Just put it on a similar lockout period as a raid !!

[siskokid21]

Is it by design those who do only Mythic + have higher item level than those who only do Heroic Raid? The difference is about 10 to 15 ilvls. And if so, why? Is it not far more challenging putting a 25 man raid together aned keep it together and managing a guild than finding 4 players?

It's 10 ilvl on 1 piece higher, compared to multiple chances at loot while in a heroic raid. The loot at the end of dungeons is the same, but when you consider 30-40 minute dungeons vs. a 5-10 minute boss; raiding looks a lot better as far as time spent.

On my server, chat is filled with Mythic + boost ..

So, Blizz message to player base it Pay 2 Win? Buy Tokens and give gold to Mythic + boosters gets you gear better than Heroic Raiders?? WTF

Boosting has existed far longer than BFA, and a weekly +10 should be fairly puggable by anyone.

[justandulas]

Well, it's a MMO. You're either gonna accept to grind and improve your character, refuse to grind and stay weak, or just quit the game. There never was a point where playing less was valuable and it will never be the case. Also there won't be any universe where a video game will have infinitely new content to do, it will always feel like and be like a grind.

If you don't like grinding it's time to get off the boat, mate.

it isn't the grind he's bashing, but the manner of which it is presented and the OP is right.

NO 5 man content, regardless of difficulty, should even come close in reward quality to even the lowest raid gear. Otherwise, why bother raiding?

and you've seen this play out all expac as heroic and low/mid tier mythic guilds have fled BFA like the plague. BFA is the lowest point in WoW's history for raiding guilds

great for solo players, people who dont wanna play with others, altoholics, etc... but for people who only like to play one toon all expac and prefer raiding over other content... why on earth bother when 5 man and warfronts give you BETTER gear for 1/10th the effort?

[Freshouttajail]

it isn't the grind he's bashing, but the manner of which it is presented and the OP is right.

NO 5 man content, regardless of difficulty, should even come close in reward quality to even the lowest raid gear. Otherwise, why bother raiding?

and you've seen this play out all expac as heroic and low/mid tier mythic guilds have fled BFA like the plague. BFA is the lowest point in WoW's history for raiding guilds

great for solo players, people who dont wanna play with others, altoholics, etc... but for people who only like to play one toon all expac and prefer raiding over other content... why on earth bother when 5 man and warfronts give you BETTER gear for 1/10th the effort?

You just said people in LFR should be getting better gear than people doing M+20. Why did you say that? Do you want the entire forum to ridicule you?

[Redroniksre]

Now you're just making sh*t up man .. And what does your question have anything to do with the point of the thread?

On thread: Cross realm raiding/mythic/grouping is why we have so much boosting .. End it except for grouping via in-game tool?

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One and the same .. The reward guild/raid leaders argument has been raised/discussed and put to bed, no one is trying to necro that topic.

Raid leader is nothing without people in that raid. Being part of a community/guild is a huge part of gaming .. at least for me .. Slowly it is as if that is being chipped away at .. We have PLAY 2 WIN game today with this mythic + spammable route.

Just put it on a similar lockout period as a raid !!

No, not really one and the same. As i said the average raider has as much responsibility as the average mythic + runner. If you want to give them similar lockouts, then they need similar loot/frequency. And that goes up to Mythic raid quality too. Boosting has happened for almost every activity for all time. Hell i got boosted just to get the Warden mount in WoD. Cost doesn't matter, if you call Mythic+ P2W then so is Raids.

[Freshouttajail]

Now you're just making sh*t up man .. And what does your question have anything to do with the point of the thread?

On thread: Cross realm raiding/mythic/grouping is why we have so much boosting .. End it except for grouping via in-game tool?

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One and the same .. The reward guild/raid leaders argument has been raised/discussed and put to bed, no one is trying to necro that topic.

Raid leader is nothing without people in that raid. Being part of a community/guild is a huge part of gaming .. at least for me .. Slowly it is as if that is being chipped away at .. We have PLAY 2 WIN game today with this mythic + spammable route.

Just put it on a similar lockout period as a raid !!

Yeh because having less things to do is what the game needs right now.

[justandulas]

You just said people in LFR should be getting better gear than people doing M+20. Why did you say that? Do you want the entire forum to ridicule you?

You know i meant normal and up, and YES normal raids do deserve higher gear than M+20 even. Sorry, that's just how i feel about it.

It's always going to be EASIER to find 4 other competent players than 20+. Always. The logistics of it are half the challenge, and why guilds who raid deserve more than just people who power run 5 man's.

It's a big reason BFA is pretty much dead in the water; raiding has NEVER meant less to the game.

Why should anyone put in the extra time and effort to do heroic or mythic raiding when you can just run 5 mans and afk in warfronts and be equally geared in roughly the same amount of time?

M+ is both the best and worst thing that has happened to WoW in years, and was handled MUCH better in Legion than BFA.

Raiding is basically dead in BFA, and M+ is a big reason why. prove me wrong

[Freshouttajail]

You know i meant normal and up, and YES normal raids do deserve higher gear than M+20 even. Sorry, that's just how i feel about it.

It's always going to be EASIER to find 4 other competent players than 20+. Always. The logistics of it are half the challenge, and why guilds who raid deserve more than just people who power run 5 man's.

It's a big reason BFA is pretty much dead in the water; raiding has NEVER meant less to the game.

Why should anyone put in the extra time and effort to do heroic or mythic raiding when you can just run 5 mans and afk in warfronts and be equally geared in roughly the same amount of time?

M+ is both the best and worst thing that has happened to WoW in years, and was handled MUCH better in Legion than BFA.

Raiding is basically dead in BFA, and M+ is a big reason why. prove me wrong

That's not how you should feel about it tho. Feelings don't make something right. You should be able to recognize that M+ up to a certain point is objectively harder than Normal raiding and it should reward better gear.

Is it the case right now in the game? I'm no judge of that, but the amount of players you are with is not a level of difficulty made by the game, it's a fake difficulty created by the shitty playerbase this game has and the game has no reason to make up for it.

[nToxik]

You're correlating that "BFA is the lowest point in history for raiding guilds" and then blaming M+ for that? I mean the game has been stale now for far more years than M+ has been around. The actual population of players that raid in this game has always been a small minority so when subscribers drop, so does the player base including those that raid.

Blizz also put some way better gear in M+ than in raids (mostly trinkets). But raiding gets you Azerite a lot faster than M+ will.

I'm in a raiding guild. We cross-realm a lot of our players weekly. We also run M+ weekly and enjoy the challenges and rewards. Without M+, people would just raid-log until the next week and if M+ didn't exist, many of our players would just unsub permanently. M+ can be harder/more challenging than raiding.

Increasing the raiding population by decreasing the rewards that players can obtain outside of raids would be worse overall for the game.

The game is 14 years old, a lot older than most any game should exist. It runs on an old engine with shit graphics by today's standards. The player base is not going to increase in the future no matter what Blizz does but limiting content is not going to improve participation elsewhere.

[Cempa]

ooh well, if you can't beat them join 'em! Buy your BiS gear and do something better with you extra time

[ThrashMetalFtw]

Blizz moved raid leaders and guild leaders from Everquest by giving them something fun! These new kids in Blizz today have no idea how they are killing the game slowly ..

Raiding and the highest of high-end PvP should be the ONLY source of best-of-best gear.

HC raiding isn't high end raiding.

Mythic raiding is, and it gives gear 15 iLvls higher...

[justandulas]

Yes, there is a direct correlation between M+ gear being more and more relevant and easier to get for 99% of the population, and the lack of people really in heroic and mythic raiding compared to even legion.

M+ is both the best addition to the game, and the worst in years.

I do like that it keeps dungeons relevant, and gives players without big guilds something to strive for. There should be enough WOW for all of us.

That said, the pendulum swung way too far this expac in the wrong way and it's now to the point where people are OPENLY saying "Why bother raiding heroic or mythic and doing 4x the amount of work needed when i can just afk in warfronts and do easy 5man M+ content and achieve equal or better gear for 1/10th the effort?"

It snowballs and soon there's no incentive to raid other than friendship, which is where we are now unfortunately.

They could easily rectify this by removing WF/TF from M+ and just making it baseline stats that way people could still get better and better in M+ but it doesn't cut raiding off at the knees like it has this expac.

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HC raiding isn't high end raiding.

Mythic raiding is, and it gives gear 15 iLvls higher...

You need heroic raiders to be able to pull mythic raiders together, and TBH, this hurts mythic raiding a LOT more than heroic.

Heroic raiding is kinda in an ok place because of WF/TF making the jump to mythic completely irrelevant for a lot of raiders. Why bother putting in the extra grind for mythic when normal/heroic has a chance to reward equal/better versions of the same gear? The gap in gear is too small, and the incentive for mythic has never been lower.

The METHODS of the world won't notice, but the low/mid tier mythic guilds and the heroic guilds who wanna make the jump into mythic are hurt the most and they represent the majority of raiders in WoW left... or did, prior to BFA pulling a straight genocide on the raid population for the sake of accessibilty.

[Erous]

Because m+ really doesn't require a whole lot of coordination to accomplish and as others have said, you can spam run them with more options in getting gear. You don't even have to succeed... Just spam pull like pouring water over a rock and you'll eventually complete it and receive your 410+ gear. Additionally, you only need 5 semi coherent people to do it.

[Moonsorrow]

Anyone who wants raids to be the sole source of high-level gear should just wait for Classic and leave retail! They are probably also against catch-up mechanics and prefer to farm all raids for the entire expansion because one piece of gear is just so overpowered that it is BiS for the entire expansion...

People tend to forget the downside of this approach and people raid-logging is just one of them.

Without M+ I would not have played all through Legion and BfA. I don't want to comit to more then two raiding days per week and M+ gives me the chance do to something challenging and worth while the rest of the week if I feel so without blocking an entire evening as I can call it a night every other dungeon.

[shadowmatrix]

..and what's been happening to subs? You know why? It is extremely easy to get 5 man mythic gear ..

At the very least gearing through 5 man should take as much time as gearing through raiding.

Time? Why would it take more time when my mythic team can do 5-8 mythic+ runs per night? If a highly skilled group is pushing your looking at around 70 chances at loot per week if they are beating the timer.

[justandulas]

Anyone who wants raids to be the sole source of high-level gear should just wait for Classic and leave retail! They are probably also against catch-up mechanics and prefer to farm all raids for the entire expansion because one piece of gear is just so overpowered that it is BiS for the entire expansion...

People tend to forget the downside of this approach and people raid-logging is just one of them.

Without M+ I would not have played all through Legion and BfA. I don't want to comit to more then two raiding days per week and M+ gives me the chance do to something challenging and worth while the rest of the week if I feel so without blocking an entire evening as I can call it a night every other dungeon.

Most of WoW has taken your advice.

Personally, i'm a mythic tank who unsubbed about 6 weeks back (i've had my sub since day 1 of vanilla) and won't come back until Classic.

Current WoW is more of an MMO ARPG with it's roots more in Diablo 3 than Everquest. Some people prefer the ARPG style of todays game, others prefer the MMO RPG style of the older WOW titles. Neither is necessarily wrong and there's enough WOW for all of us.

That said, current wow is definitely more diablo 3 while classic is more Everquest. ones an mmo ARPG and one is an mmo RPG.

They are almost two different genres within the WoW spectrum. To each their own

[Cempa]

Most of WoW has taken your advice.

Personally, i'm a mythic tank who unsubbed about 6 weeks back (i've had my sub since day 1 of vanilla) and won't come back until Classic.

Current WoW is more of an MMO ARPG with it's roots more in Diablo 3 than Everquest. Some people prefer the ARPG style of todays game, others prefer the MMO RPG style of the older WOW titles. Neither is necessarily wrong and there's enough WOW for all of us.

That said, current wow is definitely more diablo 3 while classic is more Everquest. ones an mmo ARPG and one is an mmo RPG.

They are almost two different genres within the WoW spectrum. To each their own

Very well said, thanks! I do miss mmo RPG days of WoW.

[ID811717]

Is it by design those who do only Mythic + have higher item level than those who only do Heroic Raid? The difference is about 10 to 15 ilvls. And if so, why? Is it not far more challenging putting a 25 man raid together aned keep it together and managing a guild than finding 4 players?

On my server, chat is filled with Mythic + boost ..

So, Blizz message to player base it Pay 2 Win? Buy Tokens and give gold to Mythic + boosters gets you gear better than Heroic Raiders?? WTF

Go time a +23 please and then come back tell me how it's much easier than doing a HC raid.

[Sencha]

As already said, that's just heroic raiding which is not a big deal. Keep in mind that heroic raiding was called normal raiding in MoP.