"End Time" Maybe Coming True (speculation)

[MechaCThun]

This is taken from the WoW Reddit page. LINK!

TL;DR
Jaina, Sylvanas, Baine and Tyrande have all been made into major players of this expansion (BfA) in order to fulfill the "end time" prophecy that the Infinite Dragonflight tried to hinder by stopping us from defeating the Burning Legion.

We all know that the time dragons will play some kind of role in this expansion based on the Chromie scenario and the tailoring quest. But the true extent of it has been hidden right under our noses all this time.

The End Time dungeon has 5 bosses, 4 of which that rotates. Seemingly unrelated the 4 rotating bosses all have one thing in common (except for being race leaders/ high ups): back when the dungeon released it would've been preposterous for any of them to be turned into our enemy.

Today, not so much. Jaina, Baine, Tyrande and of course Sylvanas all occupy one shrine. All of them being major players this expansion and all of them having turned to extremism in one way or another (even Baine has fallen into radicalization through his actions even though he belevies them to be for the good).

Sylvanas

"Spawned from shattered timeways and cloistered within the Ruby Dragonshrine, a maddened fragment of the Forsaken's leader, Sylvanas Windrunner, waits restlessly. Having lost everything and unable to find peace, this tormented echo aches for a chance to unleash her dark fury at anything still living within these barren, time-twisted wastes."

It is far from a stretch to see how Sylvanas might be on the path to this fate with a couple more defeats in her future.

Tyrande

"Once high priestess of Elune and leader of the night elves, this time-twisted fragment of Tyrande Whisperwind now wanders the desolate future of Azeroth. Enveloped by eternal midnight, she is forever separated from the comforting light of Elune and torn by questions about why her goddess did nothing to put an end to such madness."

If we are to take all we've seen at face value the Night Warrior is a champion of Elune. But this is an old god expansion so it's less crazy to think there's some trickery here than to think this follower of the lights greatest power lies in the darkness of the light.

Dissapointment in Elune is a sentiment we've already seen from a few of her priestesses as well.

Give yourselves to the night, Elune will guide you from this mortal prison Doesn't this sound dangerously like choosing darkness for immortal powers? Not unlike what happens to Azshara?

The darkness closes in, my vision is clouded. Mother moon I can no longer see your light your daughter is *alone in the darkness Further hints that the night warrior might not be a work of Elune.

These are the two bosses I faced today but I will include the descriptions for Baine and Jaina for good measure

Baine

"Enraged by his failure to protect the world and, most importantly, the Horde, this time-ravaged shade of Baine Bloodhoof lingers within the ruins of the Obsidian Dragonshrine. Although he's still as powerful as the tauren high chieftain from the present, within this shattered future Azeroth, this guilt-ridden echo is little more than a discordant vessel of unquenchable malice and anger."

Jaina

"The tormented fragment of Jaina Proudmoore has been split and infused within the shattered pieces of her staff. To restore balance to the timeways, this echo must be defeated. However, the devastating magical power possessed by the once-proud ruler of Theramore is hardly lost to her time-havocked spectre. In this future Azeroth, she is only divided, and waiting...."

The rest of post is pretty interesting.

The OP goes on to say that he doesn't believe Blizzard planned out this arc all the way back in Cataclysm, and I don't believe so either.

However, I do believe that had the groundwork of what they wanted to tell, and laid those seeds for them to get back to it.

What do you guys think?

[A Chozo]

While those four were made "major", several other Alliance and Horde leaders also appear extensively during BfA (Mekkatorque, Gallywix, Greymane, even Vol'jin!), yet they didn't appear in End Time. Sounds more like coincidence.

One guy (DrSandwich2) in that thread pointed out the loopholes of the theory.

[ashblond]

Interesting speculation, but OP thinks too much for sure.

Even Blizzard doesn't know how the stories go, let alone nearly 10 years ago in Cataclysm.

[Nohara]

So Nozdormu whispered Vol’jin according to this theory?

[mickybrighteyes]

So Nozdormu whispered Vol’jin according to this theory?

Or maybe Murazond!

[formerShandalay]

I think, and we've had this discussion here at the beginning of BfA iirc, that this is indeed at least a hint back to those encounters in Cata. Some of the Blizzard stories may be more short-term, but some of them are also already laid out well in advance (no details ofc) to be set in motion when the time is right. Aaand some just leave convenient loose ends to be tied up later with a story that fits.^^
The Nozdormu/Murozond thing would have to be planned though, because it was clear from the start that this would play out over the course of several expansions. Also, we've had the time-shenanigans with dragonshrines again in Legion, so this is an ongoing story.
However the outcome may vary a little. Maybe some of them really go mad, maybe for some it plays out differently, because the timeline where these things happen exactly the way we saw them there was prevented. What we saw in Cata was the outcome if the Hour of Twilight had happened the way Murozond wanted it to.

[Zandalariprelate]

I think, and we've had this discussion here at the beginning of BfA iirc, that this is indeed at least a hint back to those encounters in Cata. Some of the Blizzard stories may be more short-term, but some of them are also already laid out well in advance (no details ofc) to be set in motion when the time is right. Aaand some just leave convenient loose ends to be tied up later with a story that fits.^^
The Nozdormu/Murozond thing would have to be planned though, because it was clear from the start that this would play out over the course of several expansions. Also, we've had the time-shenanigans with dragonshrines again in Legion, so this is an ongoing story.
However the outcome may vary a little. Maybe some of them really go mad, maybe for some it plays out differently, because the timeline where these things happen exactly the way we saw them there was prevented. What we saw in Cata was the outcome if the Hour of Twilight had happened the way Murozond wanted it to.

The only problem is this characters from the end times dungeon, all of them comes from a different timeline where we didn't defeat Deathwing, Sylvanas, Jaina and Tyrande encounter says something about: More deathwing minions? Your deaths will be painful.

Still the infinity dragonfly could work here into some new plot, they participated in the death of chromie scenario, a bronze dragon helped the horde to recruit the Ma'ghar despite of the teldrassil thing and wrathion got more hints in this expansion than legion and WoD where he wasn't even mentioned besides of 1 time

[Soon-TM]

Imagine a raid where we get to kill all these four asses, it would be !@#$ing glorious. Just add Nathanos and Malfurion for good measure, and I'm sold. Make it happen, Blizz

[Knaar]

That's assuming blizzard follow his own story and they know what they want to do, but we've seen so many time already that they clearly dont even know what's going on in their own game....

Im saying it's only coincidence since there was not enough big players to use anymore in the game.

[formerShandalay]

The only problem is this characters from the end times dungeon, all of them comes from a different timeline where we didn't defeat Deathwing, Sylvanas, Jaina and Tyrande encounter says something about: More deathwing minions? Your deaths will be painful.

Still the infinity dragonfly could work here into some new plot, they participated in the death of chromie scenario, a bronze dragon helped the horde to recruit the Ma'ghar despite of the teldrassil thing and wrathion got more hints in this expansion than legion and WoD where he wasn't even mentioned besides of 1 time

Yes, that's what I meant by we prevented that exact timeline, where those characters appeared as they were in those echoes. But still it could mean that at some point they were at the centre of the plot leading up there and while it doesn't come to pass exactly as it did there, those characters are still the ones that are important to that plot and may simply end up in places a little bit different from what we saw. Maybe we can prevent them from ever going this mad or maybe they will even die instead of going mad, we don't know.

But I think you're definitely right, the Bronze dragonflight is about to fall, maybe Nozdormu has already fallen and turned into Murozond, we just don't know it yet.

Oh and Wrathion, as much as I dislike the character, he maybe even have some hints for us too in the short mentions in WoD and Legion. In WoD he was at Taylor's garrison and seemed to have known in advance that it would be overrun and vanished before that happened. The garrison fell because of Ephial, a necromancer. And in Legion the Black Dragonshrine, where we got to talk to Wrathion for a few moments, was overrun by Undead again, the same ones that were there in WotLK, only this time under the guidance of a Dreadlord.
It think there are definitely some things at play here that include dragons. Bronze and Black and as the last Uuna scenario in Legion took place in the Emerald Shrine and we now know that the Death-realm is simply a part of the Emerald Dream I guess the Green ones will be involved too.

[Mehrunes]

I'm not seeing the link. The End Time we saw was carefully woven together by Murozond who was trying to avoid the true end time that scared him shitless to the point he considered post-Deathwing victory wasteland to be an upgrade over it. Murozond is no more and since that timeline was artificial, there's nothing indicating it will come naturally.

[cparle87]

Interesting speculation, but OP thinks too much for sure.

Even Blizzard doesn't know how the stories go, let alone nearly 10 years ago in Cataclysm.

Then again, go do the last boss in Mechanar and come back and tell me he doesn't sound like he's talking about the Void Lords. It is, like you said, most likely happy coincidence that something they said in the past could later become a reference to future content.

[formerShandalay]

I'm not seeing the link. The End Time we saw was carefully woven together by Murozond who was trying to avoid the true end time that scared him shitless to the point he considered post-Deathwing victory wasteland to be an upgrade over it. Murozond is no more and since that timeline was artificial, there's nothing indicating it will come naturally.

We killed Murozond in his future, but Nozdormu was alive after that, so in our timeline Murozond is still going to happen. Nozdormu even tells you this when you kill Murozond: "Nozdormu says: Still, in time, I will... fall to madness. And you, heroes... will vanquish me. The cycle will repeat. So it goes." You had to kill him in the future, because the past was blocked for Nozdormu, so you were not able to change the way towards Nozdormu becoming Murozond.

[MechaCThun]

I'm not seeing the link. The End Time we saw was carefully woven together by Murozond who was trying to avoid the true end time that scared him shitless to the point he considered post-Deathwing victory wasteland to be an upgrade over it. Murozond is no more and since that timeline was artificial, there's nothing indicating it will come naturally.

This is my understanding:

The Murozond that we faced back in Cataclysm is the Murozond from another timeline: not the Murozond (or yet to be Murozond) from our timeline. We don't know what that timeline is, or at least I don't.

That Murozond created the "End Time" (the wasteland that's an upgrade you mentioned) and fiddled around with us (our universe adventurers + our Nozdormu) and all of that.

So by us killing THAT Murozond (who was blocking us from time traveling) we were only killing whatever-timeline-he-came-from's Murozond. Our Nozdormu in our timeline should still fall to madness (as he said in his quote) and become Murozond.

Unless the ending of Dragon Soul (Dragon Aspects losing their power) was Blizzard's way of tying up that story without directly saying so.

[Zandalariprelate]

But I think you're definitely right, the Bronze dragonflight is about to fall, maybe Nozdormu has already fallen and turned into Murozond, we just don't know it yet.

Oh and Wrathion, as much as I dislike the character, he maybe even have some hints for us too in the short mentions in WoD and Legion. In WoD he was at Taylor's garrison and seemed to have known in advance that it would be overrun and vanished before that happened. The garrison fell because of Ephial, a necromancer. And in Legion the Black Dragonshrine, where we got to talk to Wrathion for a few moments, was overrun by Undead again, the same ones that were there in WotLK, only this time under the guidance of a Dreadlord.
It think there are definitely some things at play here that include dragons. Bronze and Black and as the last Uuna scenario in Legion took place in the Emerald Shrine and we now know that the Death-realm is simply a part of the Emerald Dream I guess the Green ones will be involved too.

Yeah they had been saving the bronze fly for some future plot, the red ones were massacred by the lich king(or at least some were killed as the quest in drustvar made clear) and the green one wasn't even mentioned after the emerald nightmare, but I got the feeling the broze dragon will bring the lightbound to our dimension and probably are part of the bargain with the light.

[formerShandalay]

Yeah they had been saving the bronze fly for some future plot, the red ones were massacred by the lich king(or at least some were killed as the quest in drustvar made clear) and the green one wasn't even mentioned after the emerald nightmare, but I got the feeling the broze dragon will bring the lightbound to our dimension and probably are part of the bargain with the light.

I think so too, because in the quest for the Mag'har the ones that get 'caught' by Yrel and her Lightbound are not lightforged on the spot, but get frozen in time. The AU itself is time-shenanigans and if Xe'ra had come there at some point, searching for its two lights like it did in the MU Outland, it could not have found them. But it could maybe have found the way time was twisted and maybe even some leftovers of Kairoz. And stopping time from happening is a very surefire way of making everything stop, all shadow, all war, all life, everything. The flow of time is absolutely essential for Life and the universe to exist. If you want a victory over Shadow at any cost, you could go either the Sargeras route and eradicate Life the long way or, if you find a way to do that, you could stop time. That would also explain why everything dies on AU Draenor. Yrel thinks its the orcs' doing, but the orcs say it is the Light doing that. So, of course that may just be because Light without Shadow cannot create or sustain life (no balance no life), but the 'debuff' the orcs get when Yrel catches them made me think there's actually more to it.

[Goldielocks]

How can Murozond still exist in that capacity when Nozdormu loses his power after Deathwing is defeated? Sure Murozond himself can exist but he's powerless now.

[luigisp]

... but the 'debuff' the orcs get when Yrel catches them made me think there's actually more to it.

Just out of curiosity: which debuff are you referring to (i.e. what is it called / does it say)?

[Zandalariprelate]

I think so too, because in the quest for the Mag'har the ones that get 'caught' by Yrel and her Lightbound are not lightforged on the spot, but get frozen in time. The AU itself is time-shenanigans and if Xe'ra had come there at some point, searching for its two lights like it did in the MU Outland, it could not have found them. But it could maybe have found the way time was twisted and maybe even some leftovers of Kairoz. And stopping time from happening is a very surefire way of making everything stop, all shadow, all war, all life, everything. The flow of time is absolutely essential for Life and the universe to exist. If you want a victory over Shadow at any cost, you could go either the Sargeras route and eradicate Life the long way or, if you find a way to do that, you could stop time. That would also explain why everything dies on AU Draenor. Yrel thinks its the orcs' doing, but the orcs say it is the Light doing that. So, of course that may just be because Light without Shadow cannot create or sustain life (no balance no life), but the 'debuff' the orcs get when Yrel catches them made me think there's actually more to it.

I think you are confusing another goal of the light, if they really wanted to get rid of the shadows, then they would had been helping Sargeras, they want the same thing as many cults and gods wants, a massive line of followers that worship then. That is why the light can produce life, with mortal life, you get people that will worship the light and only the light. The void in other hand wants to come here and eat in the big buffet this universe represent but likely something akin the black empire, massive civilizations prepared only to be food for the outer gods/void lords.

Now we have to wait and see if there are others lords in the life/death/arcane/fel that has different goals or even if they exist

[saintminya]

I hope a version of the End Time does come to pass. Nozdormu is still destined to become Murozond, just a weaker version of him unless he somehow gets the aspect power back. The Chromie scenario may have hinted at Nozdormu's transformation coming to pass, but time will tell on that.

The fact that Baine, Jaina, Tyrande, and Sylvanas are all at the forefront of an expansion dealing with N'zoth, who was behind the Cataclysm, really lends credence to some version of the events of End Time coming to pass. Strengthened by how all those players are at odds with each other. Sylvanas' issue with Baine is obviously at the forefront, but Tyrande doesn't care about Jaina's war either.