Satisfying stories vs. unsatisfying stories (heavy WoW, LotR and GoT spoilers)

[Wilfire]

1. Defeating Villains in a Satisfying Way

In order to create a feeling of danger and gravity, villains are usually more powerful than the heroes of their respective stories. In order for the heroes to defeat the villain, they need to use clever tricks, ingenious plans or magic. Caveat: the win condition needs to be introduced early on or it will always feel like a complete asspull.

We knew from book 1 / film 1 that in order to defeat Sauron, the heroes had to cast the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom.
We knew from the start of WotLK that the Ashbringer could counter Frostmourne (the Battle of Light's Hope, the skirmish at the Cathedral of Darkness etc.)

We had no idea how to defeat Deathwing and introducing time travel and the Dragon Soul at the 11th hour felt like an asspull and people hated it.
Jon & co. had no idea how to defeat the Night King. Arya's sneak kill felt like an asspull and people hate it.

An even worse sin is if a way to defeat the villain is introduced but plays no role in the endgame.
Example 1: BtDP established that Deathwing's fatal weakness were his armor plates. But for some reason we couldn't just tear them off the conventional way and needed the Dragon Soul to defeat him.
Example 2: GoT established the mythos of Azor Ahai and the Lightbringer. Dragonfire (which is connected to valyrian steel) had no effect on the Night King but a valyrian steel dagger one shot him? Neither Azor Ahai nor the Lightbringer played any part in the Night King's defeat.

But the worst sin is if the writers retcon the plot to make the villain's defeat make sense.
Example 1: Cataclysm established that the Aspects' great purpose was to defeat Deathwing (through combining their powers in the Dragon Soul I guess). In retrospect, empowering the Aspects was pointless because all they needed that power for was really just spending it to stop one of them. Tyr could've just told the Aspects to fuck off and Cataclysm would have never happened.
Example 2: Melisandre's throwaway line about Arya shutting brown, green and blue eyes in S3 was retconned to refer to her destiny to kill the Night King (D&D admitted as much in the post-episode featurette).

And this is how you don't defeat villains.

2. Satisfying Story Structures

There's two ways to write a story. Either you plan out a story with a clear beginning, middle and ending or you just YOLO it and see where things go. The downside of stories with a clear structure is that they have predictable endings. YOLO stories on the other hand generate a lot of fan interest and speculation because it is not obvious how they will end. And that's the problem.

You can definitely write a competent YOLO story, but it will never be satisfying. Writing the general outline of a plot is not hard, executing that outline well is. When you have thousands of fans speculating, they will inevitably come up with more interesting and intricate plots than the writers ever could. That does not mean they could write the story better than the original author. Some stories have an intricate plot but end up being complete blunders because of poor execution (see the Last Jedi). But when you have fans speculating and coming up with intricate resolutions to the story, the real resolution is never going to live up to the hype.

In LotR we knew that the story would end with a final showdown at Mount Doom.
In WotLK we knew that the story would end with a final showdown at the Frozen Throne.

In GoT we had no idea where the story was going or how the White Walkers were going to be defeated until Arya popped out of nowhere and shanked the Night King. None of the intricate fan theories about Azor Ahai, the Lightbringer, Nissa Nissa or the White Walkers' true purpose came true.
In BfA we have no idea where the story is going.

LotR was hailed as a great story. WotLK is considered by many to be an at least competent story. Yesterday GoT disappointed a lot of people. BfA is such a trainwreck that we know it will be a disappointment even without knowing the ending first.

Takeaway: if you invite fan speculation, you build up hype to silly levels. If your story can't live up to the hype then don't invite fan speculation.

Part 3. Mythos and Prophecies SUCK

Finally, we have some writers that introduce convoluted in-universe mythos and prophecies to create that feeling of "I wonder where this story will go" and invite fan speculation. The problem is that prophecies and mythos have to be intentionally vague or they'll give the ending away. But like we've covered above, fans can and do come up with more interesting interpretations for prophecies than the original writers.

GoT, like mentioned above, had Azor Ahai / Lightbringer / Nissa Nissa / the Prince that was Promised. D&D decided to just can the whole lot of them and didn't even bother interpreting them.

WoW has the Circle of Stars / Five Torches / the mysterious "She" mentioned in Old God whispers. The Circle of Stars was speculated to be some mysterious universe-shaping force. It actually ended up just being N'Zoth's prison.

If Il'gynoth had said "To find him, open his prison" it would've been immediately obvious what he was referring to.
"To find him, drown yourself in the Circle of Stars" sounds mysterious. But it NEVER could have lived up to the hype because it was always intended to just refer to N'Zoth's prison. All fan speculation was rendered moot and that's disappointing for people who had spent the last 3 years speculating about Il'gynoth's whispers.

The only "prophecy" that worked well was Illidan being the Child of Light and Darkness but it only worked because it was immediately obvious but was cleverly subverted in the end.

Takeaway: prophecies have to be vague to be interesting, but if you make vague prophecies then the fans will come up with better interpretations for them than the writers.

TL;DR N'Zoth will die to a lame asspull because there's no clear win condition for the heroes. Sylvanas' real plan will be disappointing because it will be something really simple and obvious, especially when compared to fan speculation. The rest of Old God prophecies will likewise be disappointing. The ending of BfA will be a complete shitshow because Blizzard is just blundering their way through the story instead of having a clear plan.

You know what other story had no clear endgame and ended up sucking?
Warlord of Draenor.

[Zandalariprelate]

About you last part I have to say the whispers are actually good prophecies because a lot of things turned true but not in the most obvious sense. Magni for example is a pawn but one that doesn't the role he is playing and was outsmarted and deceived all along like Ner'zhul. The ship battle that makes the ocean red seems to be taking place in the intro of Nazjatar, so while simple the execution of this prophecies was actually done well and without using the clasic trick of blizzard of "lol evil magic corrupted me".

The storyline of the old gods is where all the focus is being taked while the faction war is just filler.

The rest I agree with the storyline being a loose line isn't a good way to bring a satisfacing ending but the GoT example is a bit far fetched because the Martin already knows the end and told the writers however he also let them have their own "creativity" which is why the show has gone downhill.

[Mehrunes]

An even worse sin is if a way to defeat the villain is introduced but plays no role in the endgame.
Example 1: BtDP established that Deathwing's fatal weakness were his armor plates. But for some reason we couldn't just tear them off the conventional way and needed the Dragon Soul to defeat him.

Deathwing had his plates switched to Elementium prior to Cata though.

[Wilfire]

Deathwing had his plates switched to Elementium prior to Cata though.

The point is that there was absolutely no need for the writers to reintroduce the Dragon Soul as an 11th hour plot device. They could've had the Aspects sacrifice themselves to rip Deathwing's plates off him. They could've had Horde and Alliance gunships ramming themselves into Deathwing to destroy his plates. But they took the lazy way out and had Deathwing be defeated by a plot device that shouldn't have even been there.

[Mehrunes]

The point is that there was absolutely no need for the writers to reintroduce the Dragon Soul as an 11th hour plot device. They could've had the Aspects sacrifice themselves to rip Deathwing's plates off him. They could've had Horde and Alliance gunships ramming themselves into Deathwing to destroy his plates. But they took the lazy way out and had Deathwing be defeated by a plot device that shouldn't have even been there.

Well, not disputing that. The resolution to Deathwing's story is a clusterfuck on 23643567 different levels. Just saying the plates issue was addressed by Blizzard long before they descended into madness (of Deathwing). Which effectively ended with them writing themselves into a corner and resorting to lel time travel and the rest of bullshit that followed.

[Varodoc]

N'zoth might die but not before ushering in the rebirth of the Black Empire. As he himself stated, those who were sleeping shall be awakened, and that which was sunken shall rise again.

N'zoth dying without any consequence would be Winterfell-level of bad.

[Aucald]

Well, not disputing that. The resolution to Deathwing's story is a clusterfuck on 23643567 different levels. Just saying the plates issue was addressed by Blizzard long before they descended into madness (of Deathwing). Which effectively ended with them writing themselves into a corner and resorting to lel time travel and the rest of bullshit that followed.

I thought the reason the Dragon Soul had to be used was because the current incarnation of Deathwing proved to be almost impossible to kill via any other means? Alexstrasza was unable to even harm him at all, and his newly-empowered form (Elementium plates and further Old God empowerment) pretty much made him impervious to everything except the Soul. But since it no longer existed in current time, having been destroyed by Rhonin in "Day of the Dragon," it had to be retrieved from the past to use in the present against Deathwing.

[Wilfire]

N'zoth might die but not before ushering in the rebirth of the Black Empire. As he himself stated, those who were sleeping shall be awakened, and that which was sunken shall rise again.

N'zoth dying without any consequence would be Winterfell-level of bad.

But that is exactly what is going to happen because BfA and D&D's GoT are exactly the same story. Here's a short comparison:

A mad queen (Cersei) is bent on waging a petty war while the true threat (the Night King) is on the rise.
A mad queen (Sylvanas) is bent on waging a petty war while the true threat (N'Zoth) is on the rise.

The Night King was defeated before the series begun and spent 8000 years waiting to launch his invasion and moving all pieces into position.
N'Zoth was defeated before the series begun and spent 10k+ years waiting to bring back his empire.

The Night King needs the heroes to make dumb mistakes to launch his invasion (Jon and his wight hunt).
N'Zoth needs the heroes to make dumb mistakes to bring back his empire (the player character literally freeing him in 8.2.)

There are convoluted prophecies related to both the Night King and N'Zoth.

The Night King and his army are defeated in their first real battle.
...


I can 100% guarantee you that 8.3. will be Ny'alotha and N'Zoth and the reborn Black Empire will be utterly defeated in their first real battle. Just like the Legion was defeated the first time we attacked them on their homeworld. The writing is on the wall and expecting Blizzard to handle N'Zoth better than D&D handled the Night King is foolhardy.

If you are still not convinced, here are some other gems of Blizzard's storytelling:

• Amon was defeated in his first real battle.
• Diablo, the Prime Evil reborn, was defeated in his first real battle.
• The Pantheon came back from the dead to defeat Sargeras.

I thought the reason the Dragon Soul had to be used was because the current incarnation of Deathwing proved to be almost impossible to kill via any other means? Alexstrasza was unable to even harm him at all, and his newly-empowered form (Elementium plates and further Old God empowerment) pretty much made him impervious to everything except the Soul. But since it no longer existed in current time, having been destroyed by Rhonin in "Day of the Dragon," it had to be retrieved from the past to use in the present against Deathwing.

Deathwing was that powerful only because Blizzard wrote him to be that powerful. Since the plot dictated that we must win, they had to do a complete asspull and lorelol the Dragon Soul back into existence.

Instead, they could've had Deathwing be less powerful and have his defeat require meaningful teamwork and sacrifice by the four Aspects.

[Mehrunes]

I thought the reason the Dragon Soul had to be used was because the current incarnation of Deathwing proved to be almost impossible to kill via any other means? Alexstrasza was unable to even harm him at all, and his newly-empowered form (Elementium plates and further Old God empowerment) pretty much made him impervious to everything except the Soul. But since it no longer existed in current time, having been destroyed by Rhonin in "Day of the Dragon," it had to be retrieved from the past to use in the present against Deathwing.

Well, yeah, that's what I meant by them writing themselves into a corner with the new plating. They didn't have to make it this durable. Because their solution to basically invulnerable plating was, predictably, shit on each and every level.

[Hubbl3]

Deathwing was that powerful only because Blizzard wrote him to be that powerful. Since the plot dictated that we must win, they had to do a complete asspull and lorelol the Dragon Soul back into existence.

Instead, they could've had Deathwing be less powerful and have his defeat require meaningful teamwork and sacrifice by the four Aspects.

Which is imo a real problem in fiction. The writers making the villains so extremely powerful that anything other than a Deus Ex Machina cannot defeat them.

[Elkfingers]

As far as WoW is concerned, I completely agree. A lot of people tend to forget about the clear foreshadowing in GoT, especially with respect to explicitly prophetic plot points which ultimately make the Arya thing fairly predictable (or at least I wasn't surprised).

Even if Arya is an asspull for argument's sake, there's another real problem with WoW not having clearly defined plot points in that the story is supposed to at least project the illusion of interactivity because your character is supposed to play an active role. GoT can play with concepts like dramatic irony because we're the audience and it's not a problem if one character doesn't know something, but it doesn't work if it's applied in the context of us not knowing what's going on while the writers do - that's only interesting for the writers. It's almost like they managed to forget who the audience actually is. If you don't really know what you're even trying to achieve becuase there is no clear endgame, it's almost impossible for there to be meaningful stakes. If there are no clear stakes then nothing that happens matters at all - we haven't been given a reason to care, so we don't care.

It would have been entirely possible to have a storyline where our characters have a clear goal, while Sylvanas does some shady shit on the side that we don't fully understand yet. That way there would be an emotional investment in what we're doing, with the added bonus that whatever Sylvanas is up to could impact that in the future; it would create mystery.

As it stands we're effectively playing as line management carrying out tasks without a clear picture of what it is we're supposed to be contributing to; we know the what, but are absolutely in the dark as to the why. Literally the only solid incentive to engage with story content is that at some point we might actually be told what the point of the story is.

[Aucald]

Deathwing was that powerful only because Blizzard wrote him to be that powerful. Since the plot dictated that we must win, they had to do a complete asspull and lorelol the Dragon Soul back into existence.

Instead, they could've had Deathwing be less powerful and have his defeat require meaningful teamwork and sacrifice by the four Aspects.

Well, yeah, that's what I meant by them writing themselves into a corner with the new plating. They didn't have to make it this durable. Because their solution to basically invulnerable plating was, predictably, shit on each and every level.

In this case, I think the "lorelol" was kind of the point. They wanted the time travel story so they could deal with Murozond, show a bit of the Ancient Night Elven empire (and a young Illidan, Malfurion, and Tyrande) as well a Night Elven Queen Azshara. The story might not been great but it wasn't them "writing themselves into a corner" as much as writing a story that required all these things. But unfortunately they sort of had to rush the ending a bit. Deathwing's nigh invulnerability was showcased during the Cata questing experience, long before the Dragon Soul raid was available.

[Wilfire]

Which is imo a real problem in fiction. The writers making the villains so extremely powerful that anything other than a Deus Ex Machina cannot defeat them.

Powerful villains by themselves are not a problem. Both Sidious and Sauron were extremely powerful villains but they were defeated in a way that was not asspully or cheesy. Sidious's Dark Side was overcome by the bond between Luke and Vader. Sauron was defeated when Frodo overcame his internal struggles and (almost) sacrificed himself to destroy the Ring.

Modern authors, however, fail at writing powerful villains or nuanced stories in general. Modern stories are written in a clickbait-y way designed to generate clickbait-y speculation on YouTube. It's all:

• UNBELIEVABLE PLOT TWIST! Everything we thought we knew was a lie!
• WHAT A TWIST! What will this character do next!?
• WHAT IS <insert generic villain here>'s ENDGAME!?
• THE ROLE OF SYMBOLISM IN <insert generic series here>.
• THE TRUTH ABOUT <x> EXPOSED!

Nothing has to have any nuance or be internally consistent. It's all about writing that "sick" twist that turns everything on its head.

[Mehrunes]

In this case, I think the "lorelol" was kind of the point. They wanted the time travel story so they could deal with Murozond, show a bit of the Ancient Night Elven empire (and a young Illidan, Malfurion, and Tyrande) as well a Night Elven Queen Azshara. The story might not been great but it wasn't them "writing themselves into a corner" as much as writing a story that required all these things. But unfortunately they sort of had to rush the ending a bit. Deathwing's nigh invulnerability was showcased during the Cata questing experience, long before the Dragon Soul raid was available.

So instead you have them starting with a monumentally idiotic end point for the story and them hamfisting the story to reach it. Not exactly an upgrade.

[Aucald]

So instead you have them starting with a monumentally idiotic end point for the story and them hamfisting the story to reach it. Not exactly an upgrade.

I guess you could say the premise was idiotic, but it was arrived at and executed more or less honestly. Rather than having it be a mistake and going to la-la land in an attempt to extricate themselves from it. YMMV.

[Jastall]

Which is imo a real problem in fiction. The writers making the villains so extremely powerful that anything other than a Deus Ex Machina cannot defeat them.

Indeed. Mass Effect also suffered from this for example, making the Reapers so OP that nothing but a plot device could possibly win the day. And let us remember the outrage at that particular slice of writing genius.

Game of Thrones also had its Night King story end in a shitty way, but mostly because thematically it was a wash. Arya being a highly skilled assassin was well established, as was the Walker's weakness to Valyrian Steel, they didn't pull any of this out of nowhere. What sucked was having all the characters with connections to the Night King, all the 3-eyed raven stuff, all the prophecies, all the foreshadowing mean jack squat so that the unstoppable army of the dead was actually stopped by the 18 years old superninja that didn't know shit about it two episodes ago and everybody else either died for nothing or had to be saved by her. Joke's on Bran the Builder, erecting a hundreds feet tall ice Wall when he could just have hired some Rogue with a fancy knife to do the job apparently.

BFA's writing mishaps are worse than GoT's however, in that I'm given no reason to care at all about the story in the first place. Every character is an inconsistent trainwreck, every storyline but one runs on pure retardation, the very premise relies on me putting on my blinders and imagining that the faction war is totes the most objectively important thing about Warcraft when everyone who has followed this game for more than a few months knows that's just not true. Game of Thrones has moments of retarded writing and thematic blunders for sure, but it still manages to make me care about a decent portion of its cast, and if nothing else it doesn't shamelessly recycle a bad plot, making it worse along the way.

[Nirn]

Warcraft world exists in a form of a MMO, where the gameplay dictates the story and not the other way around. MMOs are called story killers for a reason. There is also a inescapable fact that the writers who write the story and the lore of WoW are simply mediocre at their best day.

[Powerogue]

I think that you're making a pretty big mistake of just asserting "we have no idea what the end will be, but I guarantee it'll suck!" They've pulled this off before.

Illidan Xe'ra redemption arc: "This goes completely against Illidan's character, why would you do something this stupid!? WoW is dead!"
Blizzard: Rejection of the Gift cutscene

burning of teldrassil reaction: "this is pure evil and stupid! Nothing good can come out of this storytelling decision!
blizzard: Old Soldier cinematic

The strongest moments in Blizzard storytelling history have been them pulling themselves out of these "impossible to complete well" storylines. I'm cynical too but damn it, if there's one thing they've proven they're good at, it's this. So I give them the benefit of the doubt.

[Zandalariprelate]

Which is imo a real problem in fiction. The writers making the villains so extremely powerful that anything other than a Deus Ex Machina cannot defeat them.

This is a real problem in wow, blizzard did a huge mistake with using OP characters to early instead of just random warlords of different races, a more grounded enemy that doesn't need some deus ex machine or asspull miracle to defeat

[pinelakias]

How to fix yesterdays abomination:

1) Call it a dream episode.
2) The living army is set up properly (what kind of formation was that?)
3) Use the motherfuckin prophecy! You've been building this up for 8 seasons and you just kill the "darkness" with a switch-stab? Azor ahai was meant to be the one who sacrifices his love to kill "the darkness". You set this up perfectly, with the vision of daenerys covered in snow in Westeros, the whole Targaryen incest love story, the resurrection from the Lord of Light, Melisande seeing the promised prince in both Danny and Jon, the suspense between Aegon and the NK, and Arya gets the kill? The one he doesnt even know exists? This is so anti-climactic, it ruined the whole fucking show. You had a plan. The show was awesome because you were following the plan. Yet you did something so fucking idiotic, Rian fucking Johnson is trolling you!
Honestly, Im done with Game of Thrones. The reason I loved it was because of the NK.
(PS. Everyone we knew was major player, was actually completely irrelevant to the whole fucking war. People still call Bran a GoCrow camera)