Fundamental Problems of Modern WoW

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Again, you are stuck in the min/max mindset.
You look at what classes made things easiest, and expect other classes to have the same tools, giving you the same experience.
This is the problem with retail WoW.

You just don’t seem to know what min maxing means. It’s not about being easiest it’s about being able to do such things at all, some tanks just couldn’t do there jobs in raids witch is a design flaw not min maxing.

[Luxeley]

1) This is a huge issue because of how its implemented - 100% rng. Too much RNG already exists and it's highly frustrating to put in the time and still not receive a much needed pc. I'd be all for some kind of currency that upgrade an existing pc to War or Titanforged.

2) The best implement of itemization have always been pvp and pve set bonuses. They did away with the former in Legion and the latter in BFA. As a result pvp hit an all time low in participation in Legion and well we all know how terrible BFA is. Not saying this 100% or even 70-80% of the reason why there's been a decline in participation, but it certainly does add to it, it's definitely part of the problem.

3) This is where the rubber meets the road and the brakes don't work and BFA crashes and burns. Class Design, with a few exceptions, is horrendous. And terrible class design can ruin great raids, M-plus and pvp. Regardless of what your choice is for the end game, class design is a huge part of it and this where Blizzard got lazy and simply said screw this is what we've got, lets toss it against the wall and see if it sticks.

4) Questing feels somewhat antiquated now then again it's always been something Blizzard has done right. I think the end game is where the real challenge and staying power lies now and I doubt they can do much to change that. This is what the game evolved into and for better or worse I doubt there is much they can or will do. On some level it is a shame because the questing (aka the journey) is what made Vanilla so endearing.

5) I'd sign off on revamping the old zones, but that's just not going to happen, unfortunately. Somewhere along the line, probably during BC, WOW became more about the end game than the journey. The one and only way I could see the older content becoming relevant again is if they added some kind of challenge for completing a zone, maybe a small raid at the end of each zone, something scalable. Idk for certain, just tossing things out there, but I am fairly certain if questing or the world is going to be relevant, there needs to be some kind of "worthy" and meaningful challenge attached to it.

[Mullet Man]

The game sets goals for players. Up until now the primary goal for players as seen in the game design is to get to raiding where the best rewards are. When classes are dismissed from raiding due to balance issues then the natural response is to bring them closer together. A side effect of that is bound to be homogenization. There are only so many ways to swing a sword, cast a heal, or launch a spell.

The game wants you to pay attention to min/maxing so you can participate in what the developers think is the "important" content. Many people don't and essentially "quit" early with respect to min/maxing their characters. So they end up not raiding at all or doing LFR or low level mythic+ ad nauseum. Or they just quit for a while or forever.

The problem won't be solved until game content is more balanced. Classic gets away with this because there are 60 levels to do. Expansions have larger problems in that there are many fewer levels and quite frankly the developers consider world content unimportant.

It's a major problem with the game and a bad business decision in the bargain.

I agree. Blizzard starting chasing the min/maxers.
They tried to stop them from blowing through content.
This forced everyone to chase min/maxing or be left behind.
So they had to kill the classic talent trees and move to what we have now.
They had to try and "balance" all the classes.

They should have ignored the min/maxers and let them blow through the content.
They should have make the classes even more unique and diverse.
So you couldn't do things with certain classes and required assistance.

I could go on, and on, on what should have been done.
But hindsight is 20/20 and I'm playing Monday morning quarterback.

[Clozer]

I agree. Blizzard starting chasing the min/maxers.
They tried to stop them from blowing through content.
This forced everyone to chase min/maxing or be left behind.
So they had to kill the classic talent trees and move to what we have now.
They had to try and "balance" all the classes.

They should have ignored the min/maxers and let them blow through the content.
They should have make the classes even more unique and diverse.
So you couldn't do things with certain classes and required assistance.

I could go on, and on, on what should have been done.
But hindsight is 20/20 and I'm playing Monday morning quarterback.

You are extremly selfish. Your way of playing must now suit everyone else, because you are not willing to adapt. This is why everyone says the classic community is pure trash.

[Mullet Man]

You are extremly selfish. Your way of playing must now suit everyone else, because you are not willing to adapt. This is why everyone says the classic community is pure trash.

I'm selfish because I have opinions?

We have Classic to play. I'm very excited for that.
Like many others, I think Retail is not a good game and needs changes. See OP.

- - - Updated - - -

If you make a class that can tank, heal, and dps.

But then proceed to go "By the way, it can't tank because it doesn't have a taunt, nor can it dps because it barely does damage", then that's a failure.

That isn't "mix/maxing", that's just bad design.

You can tank without a taunt, if your group knows your limitations.
Not every class needs to top DPS meters to be fun.

The min/max mindset is strong in Retail WoW.
Its Blizzard's fault. They chased that group of players.

[grandgato]

Retail WoW tries to make every class equal.
Classic WoW celebrated class differences.

How exactly did Classic "celebrate the differences"? You either played the correct class/spec, or you didn't get a group.

From what I remember at least *it's been a few years*

1.) Warriors were tanks
2.) Paladins, Druids, and Priests *didn't play Horde at the time* were healers
3.) Everyone else was DPS.

This is not to undermine you being excited for Classic, that's great and all. But i hardly would call the terrible state of class balance that was Vanilla any sort of celebration compared to what we have now.

[Naramag]

How exactly did Classic "celebrate the differences"? You either played the correct class/spec, or you didn't get a group.

Yep. My wife and I both played hunters. She was marksman, I did beastmaster. After a while we simply stopped trying to find anything.

[Jester Joe]

You can tank without a taunt, if your group knows your limitations.
Not every class needs to top DPS meters to be fun.

The min/max mindset is strong in Retail WoW.
Its Blizzard's fault. They chased that group of players.

You're not proving anything besides regurgitating "but mix/maxers" over and over again.

The issue was you couldn't. There's a reason Vanilla is known for having the most dead specs, and just because you think it could work doesn't mean you're right.

[Mullet Man]

How exactly did Classic "celebrate the differences"? You either played the correct class/spec, or you didn't get a group.

My experience was the opposite.
Only a few times do I remember anyone who cared about your specific spec.
It was just LF1M tank. They didn't care if it was warrior, pally, or bear.
Or LF1M heals. They didn't care if you were shadow, holy, disc, etc...
As long as you could do your task and communicated if you had limitations that needed to be observed.
I healed instances from 1-60 as shadow.

[A Chozo]

Jesus Christ, look at all those opinions on this thread. It's a mess. Everyone here has a different perception of what problem in Modern WoW is "fundamental", and there's some heavy Classic fanboyism going on.

Seriously guys, people getting left out of group content because the talents they got were trash is now some sort of awesome freature that should be kept in Retail? This is the age of "we follow the meta". Elitists (but never true elites) will gatekeep for the most miserable reasons.

[Mullet Man]

Yep. My wife and I both played hunters. She was marksman, I did beastmaster. After a while we simply stopped trying to find anything.

I don't remember many groups that were: LF2M DPS.
Those spots filled up fast.

- - - Updated - - -

You're not proving anything besides regurgitating "but mix/maxers" over and over again.

The issue was you couldn't. There's a reason Vanilla is known for having the most dead specs, and just because you think it could work doesn't mean you're right.

I'm saying you could, and we did.

[Aggrophobic]

Retail WoW tries to make every class equal.
Classic WoW celebrated class differences.

Well, hardly. Class design might be rather dull now but in classic, every class is a complete mess and not a single one is actually fun to play.
Class design was at its best in late Cata and all of MoP and the game never really recovered after the horrors that the devs let loose after MoP.

Oh, how I miss MoP.

[Mullet Man]

...but in classic, every class is a complete mess and not a single one is actually fun to play.

To each his own... but I found every class in Classic very fun to play.
They each had a very distinct personality, with strengths and weaknesses compared to other classes.

[Jester Joe]

I'm saying you could, and we did.

are you talking about dungeons, where even nontanks could tank it seems, or raids though.

Either way, your single opinion is vastly outweighed by almost everyone else saying otherwise.

[Mullet Man]

are you talking about dungeons, where even nontanks could tank it seems, or raids though.

Either way, your single opinion is vastly outweighed by almost everyone else saying otherwise.

I'm the the BfA forum, where you are all completely invested in the mix/maxing of Retail WoW.
I don't expect to get much support here.
But there is a reason Blizzard is releasing Classic WoW, and it isn't because the current direction of Retail WoW is going great.

[nToxik]

Having such heavy layers of RNG like warforging and titanforging only makes sense if you:

A: Have unlimited trys to get the item.
B: Have the items be tradable so the competetive people can decide its worth paying the big price tag.
Or C: Having the content last A LOT longer. And i am talking like a year per patchcycle.

A: Your statement doesn't make sense. You can raid the boss once per week and also have a bonus roll. What does Unlimited 'tries' have to do with WF/TF?
B: Trade-able can be abused. You could be in situations where you are forced to trade WF/TF (and likely would).
C: Not sure what WF/TF has to do with content lasting longer.

[plato13]

A: Your statement doesn't make sense. You can raid the boss once per week and also have a bonus roll. What does Unlimited 'tries' have to do with WF/TF?
B: Trade-able can be abused. You could be in situations where you are forced to trade WF/TF (and likely would).
C: Not sure what WF/TF has to do with content lasting longer.

You awnsered it yourself because those scenarios arent given, warfroge/titanforge is a bad system.
You would need at least one of those systems to make sure your players can get their best in slot titanforge while it is relevant for the content.

[Jester Joe]

I'm the the BfA forum, where you are all completely invested in the mix/maxing of Retail WoW.
I don't expect to get much support here.
But there is a reason Blizzard is releasing Classic WoW, and it isn't because the current direction of Retail WoW is going great.

Your response prove nothing, you keep falling back to deflecting.

I'm not even talking about just here, everywhere I see people acknowledge there's a lot of dead end classes in Vanilla. How you could get to level 60, but don't expect to get invited anywhere.

[enigma77]

That's like the tip of the iceberg @Shinrael OP

[Mullet Man]

Your response prove nothing, you keep falling back to deflecting.

I'm not even talking about just here, everywhere I see people acknowledge there's a lot of dead end classes in Vanilla. How you could get to level 60, but don't expect to get invited anywhere.

Dead-end classes if you subscribe to min/maxing.
I guarantee there will be Classic guilds using non-standard setups to raid... just because they can, and want to be different.

If you want the least path to resistance... sure min/max.
But it is not the only path Grasshopper.