Are broke people dumb? A conversation I overheard between two people.

[Aggrophobic]

Was waiting for a friend to arrive at the restaurant we hang out at and these two guys were talking about finances.

They both agreed that if you're broke or living paycheck to paycheck in America, its your own fault. They went on and
said that only dumb people were broke and poverty was just a financial form of Darwinism.

At first I was up in arms but its none of my business what they think. Then I started thinking about my own decision to major in a STEM field and how far its gotten me financially. It was my own choice.

Are they right? Are those guys wrong? Is there a caveat or any exception?

Let me know what you guys think.

Im personally on the fence.

Hmm... In the US thats not always the case but it's probably true for most people.
I grew up in Sweden and it's even more true there where college/university is already payed for and the same goes for healthcare and so on. You simply have very few reasons not to have a degree and there is litteraly tons of jobs even if you just have a high school degree.

Yet I see people crying about "not being able to drive to work becuase fuel is so expensive now!" or I can't pay my rent becuase [incert stupid reason + !] It's stuped beyond belief and they have only themselves to blame.

[meheez]

Stupid oversimplification.

[zenkai]

Was waiting for a friend to arrive at the restaurant we hang out at and these two guys were talking about finances.

They both agreed that if you're broke or living paycheck to paycheck in America, its your own fault. They went on and
said that only dumb people were broke and poverty was just a financial form of Darwinism.

At first I was up in arms but its none of my business what they think. Then I started thinking about my own decision to major in a STEM field and how far its gotten me financially. It was my own choice.

Are they right? Are those guys wrong? Is there a caveat or any exception?

Let me know what you guys think.

Im personally on the fence.

Not always, but more often than not a lot of people are broke because they are bad with money. There is a reason why higher credit scores net you cheaper finances and car insurance.

[Donald Hellscream]

Depends on why they're broke.. If it is someone who blows their money within the first few days of the month, then yeah probably not the smartest person in the world.

[arandomuser]

yes they are

[Satelliteyears0o]

So, we all just get STEM educations then and everyone will be well off and rich.
If anything it is society and especially how low tier workers are treated like shit that is the problem.

If you have a job you are a cog in the system, and you should be able to make a ok living.
Sure, people with harder jobs, or more expensive education should make more. But to treat other humans like
lower tier because of their job is disgusting.

shoot, i know ppl with formal educations who struggle with low skilled jobs.

[horbindr]

At first I was up in arms but its none of my business what they think. Then I started thinking about my own decision to major in a STEM field and how far its gotten me financially. It was my own choice.

But how much help did you have along the way? And is that same level of help available for everybody?

Ask yourself who paid for your study and the first 15-20 years of your life and you will probably quickly find that different answers to that question can greatly affect what opportunities you get to "choose yourself" or not.

[ghotihook]

But how much help did you have along the way? And is that same level of help available for everybody?

Ask yourself who paid for your study and the first 15-20 years of your life and you will probably quickly find that different answers to that question can greatly affect what opportunities you get to "choose yourself" or not.

Taxes paid for my public education and I paid 100% of my college. I make over 80K and am not even close to being poor. I bought my house at 25 by myself when I was making 45K a year. I have never borrowed money or taken a loan from friends or family. I have been working since I was 14. My first car cost me $500 which I paid for all by myself. Every single car after that I paid for without help from anyone.

I have 3 friends that I consider poor. Every one of them because they make poor life choices. I am not saying it's impossible to be poor when you make good economic choices, but the vast majority the cause of them being poor is bad choices.

[Deathknightish]

I personally always think of the "living paycheck to paycheck" being less about the size of the paycheck and more about living within your means. They of course are grossly oversimplifying things. There are many uncontrollable factors. In my opinion, of you borrow money ( payday loans, credit cards ) to purchase anything that is not an emergency or necessary to survive, you are being frivolous. Do enough of that, you have lots of fancy things, but your paychecks are all spent before you even get them. That would put you into a living to paycheck to paycheck situation. I would say that dumb is probably not the correct word, but ignorant would be more suitable.

Actually it's harder not to live paycheck to paycheck here in Sweden, mainly for three reasons;

1) Our wages are taxed to hell and back. While it's, if I remember correctly, like 15-18% in the U.S, it starts at like 20-22% and progressively gets higher the more you earn.
2) A uni degree doesn't actually make you earn that much more than people without one, unless you become a doctor, lawyer and such. Most uni degrees will net you jobs that "only" gives you around 30-35k SEK pre-taxes. As a reference I don't have a uni degree and I earn 30k. The average salary in Sweden is 24k, according to https://buffert.se/loner-i-sverige/. This has been heavily criticised, as many don't see any point in getting a uni degree, as there's not much more money gained from it.
3) Everything else is taxed to hell and back. 25% is the norm for non-food stuff, 12% for food.

[horbindr]

Taxes paid for my public education and I paid 100% of my college. I make over 80K and am not even close to being poor. I bought my house at 25 by myself when I was making 45K a year. I have never borrowed money or taken a loan from friends or family. I have been working since I was 14. My first car cost me $500 which I paid for all by myself. Every single car after that I paid for without help from anyone.

I have 3 friends that I consider poor. Every one of them because they make poor life choices. I am not saying it's impossible to be poor when you make good economic choices, but the vast majority the cause of them being poor is bad choices.

sure some people shaft themselves and some get shafted by life.

but you didn't answer the other question: who paid for the first 20 years of your life? and more specifically, were there big differences in that regard between you and your friends? did you all get a scholarship, did some of them have poor parents, live in a bad neighborhood, are a minority, stuff like that, compared to you?

- - - Updated - - -

Actually it's harder not to live paycheck to paycheck here in Sweden, mainly for three reasons;

1) Our wages are taxed to hell and back. While it's, if I remember correctly, like 15-18% in the U.S, it starts at like 20-22% and progressively gets higher the more you earn.
2) A uni degree doesn't actually make you earn that much more than people without one, unless you become a doctor, lawyer and such. Most uni degrees will net you jobs that "only" gives you around 30-35k SEK pre-taxes. As a reference I don't have a uni degree and I earn 30k. The average salary in Sweden is 24k, according to https://buffert.se/loner-i-sverige/. This has been heavily criticised, as many don't see any point in getting a uni degree, as there's not much more money gained from it.
3) Everything else is taxed to hell and back. 25% is the norm for non-food stuff, 12% for food.

thats true in most of western europe and lots of people don't have financial problems.

[Alvito]

People who thinks there is one clear answer to this are certainly dumb.

[ghotihook]

sure some people shaft themselves and some get shafted by life.

but you didn't answer the other question: who paid for the first 20 years of your life? and more specifically, were there big differences in that regard between you and your friends? did you all get a scholarship, did some of them have poor parents, live in a bad neighborhood, are a minority, stuff like that, compared to you?

My parents paid for me till I was 18. Then I paid them rent. I would guess almost everyone has the same answer. I went to public school in a normal suburban area. I earned a $5000 scholarship for my college by placing very well in my college placement exams. It was a big process to get that money. It wasn't simply a test. The rest of the $30K in student loans I paid for myself. My parents were considered somewhat poor. In the public school, I would have qualified for reduced price lunches, but my family was too proud to take "handouts" I was the 4th child in my family. Most of my clothes were hand downs or thrift store purchases. All 2 of the 3 are white and all 3 grew up with more money than I did. After college when I got my first job, I made more money ($15/hr) than either of my parents ever made. The thing that my parents did teach me is nothing would be given to me. I picked my college based on cost and location. I knew they didn't have the money to ever help me.

[NED funded]

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/wh...lls-2018-12-20
Many people who make a lot of money also live paycheck to paycheck. You don't have to be dumb to be broke. There is just more leg room when you make more money.

"According to a Nielsen study, 25% of families making $150,000 a year or more are living paycheck-to-paycheck. One in three earning between $50,000 and $100,000 need their next paycheck to survive."

We live in high cost of living areas in nice homes and drive expensive exotic import cars because our salaries — at least on paper, support that level of spending. We spend because we can.

The solution is simple. Stop taking loans to buy expensive exotic import cars.

[Razzako]

They're only partially right IMO, if at all.

You certainly can decide to study a career that's on demand, go to college, graduate, cash in. Going to college is basically signing up for an ROI, and some careers have a really high ROI, computer science comes to mind.

Are all broke people dumb? Obviously not, way too many factors to generalize. But someone who studied a career with a low ROI, and end up living paycheck to paycheck (then complains... what did that person expect anyways?), is pretty dumb to me, personally.

[The Stormbringer]

The solution is simple. Stop taking loans to buy expensive exotic import cars.

Doesn't apply for a lot of people. I personally have an old, used vehicle that I'll probably run into the ground, and replace it with another used vehicle. My bills are: utilities, student loan (paid the other one off), internet, cellphone, and then you have gas, food, and miscellaneous things for the house and pet. Oh, and rent, which is more than I'd like to spend on just having a place to live. I also occasionally go see a movie or buy a video game. I'd still consider myself living 'paycheck to paycheck' with only a minor buffer.

[Kharadin]

Was waiting for a friend to arrive at the restaurant we hang out at and these two guys were talking about finances.

They both agreed that if you're broke or living paycheck to paycheck in America, its your own fault. They went on and
said that only dumb people were broke and poverty was just a financial form of Darwinism.

At first I was up in arms but its none of my business what they think. Then I started thinking about my own decision to major in a STEM field and how far its gotten me financially. It was my own choice.

Are they right? Are those guys wrong? Is there a caveat or any exception?

Let me know what you guys think.

Im personally on the fence.

The problem with that line of thinking is essentially that everyone is born equal. Sure, it might be overwhelming true that if you're low on finances, you're also lacking in intelligence. But what really matters is the why. People who aren't born into wealth generally have a lower quality of education, therefore more likely to be of low intelligence, more likely to be poor. You're also more likely to live in a shitty area and have other issues that prevent you from making the most of your younger years that the more fortunate use to equip themselves for the world of work.

There's also the flipside in that if you're born into wealth, you generally don't need to do shit, or be even remotely clever. Your family has wealth, you're gonna be fine.

Poor people are also a necessity of our beautiful form of capitalism, so there's really no need to dick on them unless your ego is damaged and you need to feel good. Earning good money doesn't make you clever or good, and doesn't demonstrate you're any kind of better than a poor person, except that you're better at accruing money. Good job.

[BeepBoo]

What do you mean by living "paycheck to paycheck"? One month salary, then next month salary and so on? If so, that is how I live and I am completely fine with it. I can pay my bills, buy a car, go to vacation, what else could I want?

You could want a better quality of life after you retire because the public funded stuff is garbage and you could also want some savings set aside in case of any large unexpected expenses (like AC unit going out, big car repairs, etc).

[Gravity2015]

They are kind of right. It took me a long time, well into my 30s, to get my financial shit together and pay off my student loans.

if its paid off, congrats - i think your ahead of most.
I am also working hard to pay mine off and it will be fully paid off in another year and a half - and ill be 33. When i talk to people my age who aren't even worried about it or stressing the importance of paying this off as soon as possible - it boggles my mind.

my father in law always said "work not and play later or play now and work later"

[triplesdsu]

So, we all just get STEM educations then and everyone will be well off and rich.
If anything it is society and especially how low tier workers are treated like shit that is the problem.

If you have a job you are a cog in the system, and you should be able to make a ok living.
Sure, people with harder jobs, or more expensive education should make more. But to treat other humans like
lower tier because of their job is disgusting.

Not all broke people are dumb, but many are. I've meet my share of broke people over my life, and its not hard to see why most of them ended up and are broke. Now you dont need to be rude or mistreat people. But some people aren't smart enough to realize you shouldn't just leave animal shit laying around your house. Its almost like the broken window theory within a home/family.

[PACOX]

Some people are very dumb when it comes to people outside of their tax bracket. The others are either very naive or painfully ignorant.

People have viewed the worship of wealth as a negative virtue since forever...until they get a little bit of money and want to look down on people who are in the same position they were once in.