Can any beta testers look at this example? Elite stats/damage

[Jujudrood]

No, it fucking was not impossible.

Thank you.
Too many people on here are trying sooooo damn hard to make it look like Classic is "vastly undertuned".
It's not.
We have just played the goddamn game for 15 years, and once the lot of you here play and figure out Classic (it's not hard, given what we know now), you too will be doing crazy things because you are not a nub with auto-attack on your bar, keyboard-turning, and clicking everything with poor reaction time as you backpedal slowly out of fire.
Well, some of you still will, but that's a diff story.

[KaPe]

I haven't said anything about defense rating. I just told there was level 70 warrior to give the right ballpark for estimating his stats, and how it can't be possible in reality that he is hit twice the damage a level 30 warrior takes from one hit. Consumables, buffs and other minor stuff are irrelevant in this context

Assume that lvl70 doesn't use defensive stance and lvl30 does. That's already a big difference. Now add external buffs, be it devotion aura or stoneskin, that's even more damage reduction. Was lvl70 using proper gear or messing around with leather items/anything else? Shield? Consumables?

You'd need to compare the exact stats of two characters, not just their levels, especially when lvl30 is using gear that's vastly superior to what the average player would have at this point.

[Bisso]

Watching Asmongold and his crew running SM cathedral at lvl 30 killing 10+ levels higher mobs is ridiculous. But them killing Mograine and Whitemane while having extra adds they didn't clear before the boss fight is ludicrous. They practically 4-man two 12 levels higher bosses, which was impossible in vanilla WoW and should also be in WoW:Classic.

Now this may be due to fact that blizz haven't yet worked any classic content above level 30 but it's still open for beta testers to play. They have said Classic will be just like the game was in patch 1.12, but i'm beginning to worry they're working on some kind of WoW:Classic -lite.

you fail to realize asmongold and the others were equiped with hundreds of gold worth of gear. He probably has more stamina and strength than a level 40 warrior who is casually leveling without trying to min-max is capped toon. So yes, the only thing that makes this fight hard for the group is that it takes forever to kill the bosses because how often players will miss/glance. If you can mitigate that by having 2 healers, hunters who have no glancing, and a geared tank who will take the hits. You can do that stuff.

[nodlimax]

People should realize that there were also differences in difficulties when it came down to the various elite enemies that existed in Vanilla.

On level 60 solo farming in Tyr's Hand which is an area completely filled with elite enemies was actually a thing for pretty much every class. I was easily able to kill enemies there as a druid and later when I had a decently equipped warrior I did farm there as well. It wasn't easy but it also wasn't impossible.

On the other hand there were a few very dangerous elite enemies out there. For example if on level 60 you wanted to farm the blood from these blood pools that could be found in the eastern plaguelands the elite skeletons that spawned out of these things would easily kick your ass.

Also let's look at some level areas. Stranglethorn the hunting quests had pretty 3 elite enemies on stage 3 or 4 (a tiger, a panther and a raptor). The tiger was pretty easy even back then even though it was an elite. The panther could be easily dealt with if you had two people (I think I killed it solo as a hunter though). The raptor was a tough one though and required minimum two and better was three people. And the white tiger (Bhangalash was the name I think) which was the final hunting quest usually required also several people. I tried to solo him as a hunter and failed miserably multiple times back then.

So please consider that depending on what you attack and what class you have elites may be easy or very difficult. As a druid I was able to deal with most of the standard elite enemies on my level because druids were just great at surviving. It took time to kill them but if they can't kill me sooner or later they will die.

[deniter]

Assume that lvl70 doesn't use defensive stance and lvl30 does. That's already a big difference. Now add external buffs, be it devotion aura or stoneskin, that's even more damage reduction. Was lvl70 using proper gear or messing around with leather items/anything else? Shield? Consumables?

You'd need to compare the exact stats of two characters, not just their levels, especially when lvl30 is using gear that's vastly superior to what the average player would have at this point.

I guess you're right. Usually lvl 70 characters have several times more armor but it's also possible this guys was just maximizing damage output. He was in zerg stance too, which increases dmg taken by 10%. I don't how armor values affect the mitigation % so i can't comment that.

[Azerate]

Numbers in classic are exactly like in the original classic/vanilla. Not sure if you guys heard, but Blizzard is actually the company responsible for the original vanilla, so they have the accurate data. Claiming it's wrong just because you "remember otherwise" is pure stupidity

[Gungnir]

Numbers in classic are exactly like in the original classic/vanilla. Not sure if you guys heard, but Blizzard is actually the company responsible for the original vanilla, so they have the accurate data. Claiming it's wrong just because you "remember otherwise" is pure stupidity

Pretty much this.
There's even a blue post floating around where they recreate the exact same scenario on Classic and their in-house 1.12 client, and it's EXACTLY the same.

[nodlimax]

So when I look at the video: Gnome took one hit which caused 26 damage. We have to consider that he's wearing cloth armor
Our russian friend posted a picture with a combat log which clearly shows that he yeti does about the same amount of damage which is just reduced because of the higher of armor (mail).

I don't see any problem. Before posting this stuff could you MAYBE do some research before you start shouting conspiracy theories around?

[deniter]

you fail to realize asmongold and the others were equiped with hundreds of gold worth of gear. He probably has more stamina and strength than a level 40 warrior who is casually leveling without trying to min-max is capped toon. So yes, the only thing that makes this fight hard for the group is that it takes forever to kill the bosses because how often players will miss/glance. If you can mitigate that by having 2 healers, hunters who have no glancing, and a geared tank who will take the hits. You can do that stuff.

I guess we'll see it soon.

Usually the problem was that your healer went oom but it's true you can take turns with two healers. Shame we can't see Asmongold's tanking gear but from what i've heard people have sent gear to him so in theory he could be full decked with blues of his level. And lvl 30 being the max level in beta kind of makes them twinks. No ordinary player will ever run these dungeons in BiS gear.

[Steelcryo]

The beta now to me feels exactly as it did playing vanilla, only slightly easier because I know what I'm actually doing. Pulling more than a couple of mobs while solo is dangerous, gear is much harder to get (at least at lower levels) but once you get gear, things get much easier. Which is how it was back in vanilla.

So the fact some players who have been at cap for a while, who have likely got the best gear available at that level AND know what they are doing, are able to clear things much higher level than them is no surprise.

People expect Classic to be super difficult but it's not and it shouldn't be. Vanilla wasn't hard, it was just slow and methodical, which is where the difficulty is. I can guarantee the first few weeks it's live people will complain it's too hard. We'll have people who never played vanilla, or have just got used to retail, rushing into mobs and dying left right and center. Even knowing this and trying to be aware of it, I've got caught out a few times in the beta already. (fuck the roaming rare elite murloc on the north beach of westfall...)



The sad fact is, no matter how accurate Blizzard make it to original Vanilla, there will be people complaining it's too easy because they either remember wrong or have played overtuned private servers or there'll be people complaining it's too hard because they are used to the pace of retail. Whatever they do, Blizzard are in for a hammering.

[deniter]

No, it fucking was not impossible.

Did you even play Vanilla? If you weren't a bad, you absolutely could achieve some incredible things, including killing elites a great deal higher-level than you. Especially in 1.12, when things had been considerably improved from earlier patches.

The problem is that most people were total bads. Awful. Incompetent on a very basic level. But they didn't know it. They thought this was normal. Whereas people like me and my friends, who were coming in from other MMOs, where nowhere near as bad - we still weren't anywhere near as good as I am now, not even a fraction of it, but we weren't bads. And people proclaiming shit like this was "impossible", rather than "quite tricky" absolutely are parroting the claims of basically bad players.

This was still going on in TBC even. Most players were frickin' awful. Including some very serious raiders and stuff - just bad at the game, but good enough, or with enough good people around them that it wasn't an issue. I mean look at Heroic SLabs in TBC - lots of people wouldn't do it because it was "too hard", they'd whinge and moan and so on. With me and a few other decent people, it was a breeze. I remember we often had someone with us for the first time, and they were completely astonished, and like "How was this so easy?!" and it's like, because we're not idiots randomly hitting bloody buttons and thinking we're awesome.

I admit, in Vanilla, you couldn't expect people to not be bad. I don't blame them for it. We all had 4+ years of MMO experience compared to their 0. No wonder we were the furthest-progressed guild on our server, despite having plenty of lazy fucks and idiots cyb0ring in the raid. But this shit about impossible is just terrible, terrible stuff. It's wasn't impossible. We didn't do exactly that, but we did plenty of crazy things that people like you would claim were "impossible", including killing raid bosses with some fairly hilariously low numbers of people (though I forget the exact numbers).

One specific example, actually - three of at us level 28-ish out in Ashenvale fought a level 50 Paladin in world PvP, and we killed him, by constantly damaging and CC'ing him until we'd completely worn him down. He did actually hit us a few times, but none of us got one-shot, and because we were, IIRC, a Druid, a Shaman and a Warrior, and had plenty of bandages and drinks, we played keep-away until he was completely OOM (we could ensure he couldn't drink, he couldn't do the same to us) and he died. If we showed this video from Vanilla, people like you would be going "IMPOSSIBLE! BLIZZARD HAVE FUCKED PVP!!!!".

I believe you, i used to be a player like you described. I remember how hard it was even to hit a mob 4-5 levels higher than me and how fast i died when fighting one. I've become considerably better now but on private servers, which are not the same thing as the original game. And people don't run dungeons 5-10 levels higher than they are even on private servers.

We'll see how the game feels when it's released. I'll know if something is not right by playing it, it's hard to judge it by just watching.

[Echocho]

Can't we just drop this discussion? The game was always easy, the numbers in the beta are correct.

[deniter]

The beta now to me feels exactly as it did playing vanilla, only slightly easier because I know what I'm actually doing. Pulling more than a couple of mobs while solo is dangerous, gear is much harder to get (at least at lower levels) but once you get gear, things get much easier. Which is how it was back in vanilla.

So the fact some players who have been at cap for a while, who have likely got the best gear available at that level AND know what they are doing, are able to clear things much higher level than them is no surprise.

People expect Classic to be super difficult but it's not and it shouldn't be. Vanilla wasn't hard, it was just slow and methodical, which is where the difficulty is. I can guarantee the first few weeks it's live people will complain it's too hard. We'll have people who never played vanilla, or have just got used to retail, rushing into mobs and dying left right and center. Even knowing this and trying to be aware of it, I've got caught out a few times in the beta already. (fuck the roaming rare elite murloc on the north beach of westfall...)



The sad fact is, no matter how accurate Blizzard make it to original Vanilla, there will be people complaining it's too easy because they either remember wrong or have played overtuned private servers or there'll be people complaining it's too hard because they are used to the pace of retail. Whatever they do, Blizzard are in for a hammering.

That's what i said a year ago. No matter they will release, there are always someone saying it's too easy or too hard. It's just different crowd in both camps. I was very happy with the difficulty the game had in late vanilla. People are now more experienced both on retail and private servers, so it would had made sense to get the version that was more tightly tuned.

I'm glad the game feels like it was in vanilla to you. Do you also think the dungeons are like they were back in 1.12, or is there something that makes the mobs feel too weak compared to the old game?

[Steelcryo]

I'm glad the game feels like it was in vanilla to you. Do you also think the dungeons are like they were back in 1.12, or is there something that makes the mobs feel too weak compared to the old game?

Haven't got to dungeons yet but from what I've heard from people in game is that they seem pretty balanced and close to what they were. Deadmines for example can be done at 17 with a good group but far easier when you're 19+ which is how I remember it being.

[Maquegyver]

Watching Asmongold and his crew running SM cathedral at lvl 30 killing 10+ levels higher mobs is ridiculous. But them killing Mograine and Whitemane while having extra adds they didn't clear before the boss fight is ludicrous. They practically 4-man two 12 levels higher bosses, which was impossible in vanilla WoW and should also be in WoW:Classic.

Now this may be due to fact that blizz haven't yet worked any classic content above level 30 but it's still open for beta testers to play. They have said Classic will be just like the game was in patch 1.12, but i'm beginning to worry they're working on some kind of WoW:Classic -lite.

I'll just be here waiting for your proof it was impossible in real vanilla... Oh its just your feels and general naivety when you played vanilla that are dictating your thoughts... Got it.

[deniter]

I'll just be here waiting for your proof it was impossible in real vanilla... Oh its just your feels and general naivety when you played vanilla that are dictating your thoughts... Got it.

We have already discussed this above and found some answers, but yeah.. pretty much so, i guess.

[Frostys99]

Watching Asmongold and his crew running SM cathedral at lvl 30 killing 10+ levels higher mobs is ridiculous. But them killing Mograine and Whitemane while having extra adds they didn't clear before the boss fight is ludicrous. They practically 4-man two 12 levels higher bosses, which was impossible in vanilla WoW and should also be in WoW:Classic.

Now this may be due to fact that blizz haven't yet worked any classic content above level 30 but it's still open for beta testers to play. They have said Classic will be just like the game was in patch 1.12, but i'm beginning to worry they're working on some kind of WoW:Classic -lite.

I rarely reply on here, but I did want to clarify this post and explain what is going on is Asmongolds crew running SM Cath. First I've been in beta since it was released. Same with Asmongold and the rest of the crew. I also joined there guild on the second day. The guild is maxed we literally purge the guild of people who are inactive more than 2+ days which should give you an idea of how many people are on and playing as a community. The reason I'm telling you this is because it all leads to the possibility of what you claim isn't possible. What you really have to realize is that level cap is 30, which takes most of us a little over a day played to hit. In the beginning of the beta there were no instance caps, so we were running SM GY over and over and over. There isn't much to do at level cap(30). As you can see they set up duels in the STV arena with horde, we have pulled Teremus to Stormwind and many other things that NORMAL level 30's just don't do. When you consider the mentality of hardcore gamers and min maxing this is what you get. Literally most of us have been trying to get min max level 30 gear since about 2 days after the beta was released.

Given what I just told you there are people running around on the server in BIS level 30 required gear. If you look up some of it the item level is way higher due to blizzard not having uniformed item level like they do in retail. 2 pieces of same level gear might differ in ilvl, which doesn't happen any more and leads to different stats. When you leveled back in vanilla you didn't min max at lower levels unless you were a twink because the gear would be out leveled super fast, this isn't the case with the beta. To give you one example at level 30 you can't have more than level 225 skill since 300 is available at level 35. But with engineering gnomes get +15 which gives them access to 240 skill items. At 235 you can get the gnomish rocket helm which other races and horde can't get.

So if you were able to actually see Asmonds gear and the rest of his crew you would realize that you never had gear like at level 30 because there was no reason too. If you assume we put about 36 hours into getting to 30, we probably put 4-5 times that into getting BIS gear. To give you an example, think of the things you could do at max level as soon as you dinged in any content expansion, and then consider the things you could do when you were raid BIS. Big difference right?

[Nobleshield]

This again? Blizzard has already stated they have tested this on their internal build running the actual 1.12 client, and found it's accurate.

[sam86]

One specific example, actually - three of at us level 28-ish out in Ashenvale fought a level 50 Paladin in world PvP

and how exactly did u see his lvl in first place... any enemy 11+ lvl is seen as skull, u can max see 10 lvls, i remember that clearly because once a warlock undead was toying with me in lakeshire and i managed to fear him after LOADS of resist, and he was skull lvl to me
of course he broke fear in instant and raped me but i still remember very well i had no idea about his lvl, so to claim someone is over 11 lvl u can tell, was that addon i don't know ?

[Deficineiron]

I haven't said anything about defense rating. I just told there was level 70 warrior to give the right ballpark for estimating his stats, and how it can't be possible in reality that he is hit twice the damage a level 30 warrior takes from one hit. Consumables, buffs and other minor stuff are irrelevant in this context.

There are more than enough discussion on this matter elsewhere, and my intention is not to start a debate here. Some people wondered why the OP wanted people in beta to test this elite and my post was kind of response to this. Something is not quite right regarding elites in Classic beta and more testing has to be done.

Always worth, when looking at video then/now, to make sure swing timers look the same.

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I mean... some of the snark is deserved, but there was a post on the official forums a day or two ago with ridiculously detailed statistics to show that they didn't think hit tables were working correctly.

Just because most people are talking out of their asses doesn't mean everybody is wrong.

could you link this?

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Can't we just drop this discussion? The game was always easy, the numbers in the beta are correct.

you were opposed to classic. you are opposed to a thread on the classic forum about the beta. What are you not opposed to?

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I'll just be here waiting for your proof it was impossible in real vanilla... Oh its just your feels and general naivety when you played vanilla that are dictating your thoughts... Got it.

waiting for someone to prove a negative is quite clever, assuming it is intentional.